Racism in football.

[The Walking Man 13]

Dictionary definition of racism:

Definition of racism

noun

[mass noun]

the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races:

theories of racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one’s own race is superior:

a programme to combat racism

Legal definition of racsim:

"Parliament has passed legislation aimed at outlawing crime where the offender is motivated by hostility or hatred towards the victim''s race or religious beliefs (actual or perceived). A table setting out some of the more commonly used legislation is attached at Annex A.

It is important that prosecutors are aware of the full range of available offences when deciding on the most appropriate charge to prosecute in a particular case."

The legislation provides definitions of racial groups and religious groups in the following terms:

"A racial group means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins." The definition is wide and victims may come within the definition under more than one of the references. Gypsies and some travellers, refugees or asylum seekers or others from less visible minorities would be included within this definition. There has been a legal ruling that Jews and Sikhs are included in the definition of a racial group (Mandla v Dowell-Lee [1983] 2 AC 548)."

So my interpretation, according to the legal definition is that calling Gareth Bale a monkey would not be racist because it is not in reference to "race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins."

I would also go so far to say that if a group of black people called Gareth Bale a monkey it would not be deemed racist because it is not in reference to the above reasons. They would be calling the individual a monkey, not the white race as a whole.

A further point to make is that in this country racism is seen to be whites vs minorities, however that is not strictly the case. Imagine if there was a group called the society for white lawyers, there would be uproar in the media and they would most definitely be labelled racist. But it is seen to be acceptable to have a society for black lawyers. (What about the poor, forgotten Asians!?)

I''ve started to forget some of the points I was going to answer!

But relating this back to Carrow Road, I''ve not heard anything personally but speaking to a steward he told me that someone got ejected in the Riverend for alleged racism last season.

As a football wide problem, it will always remain a problem because the authorities do such little to tackle it. Why are the people in the SSN report afraid to speak out, will the authorities take action against individuals working for those football clubs? I remain skeptical.

To wrap up the last couple of paragraphs, I am of the firm belief that it is not necessarily "football''s problem" but the fact that football is representative of society. And is racism a problem in British society today? You bet it is.

[The Walking Man 13]

Here''s the link to the legal side of things:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/racist_and_religious_crime/#a03

[morty 0]

Good stuff[Y]And I totally take your point about the society for black lawyers lol.But that can likely be squared away with the majority / minority argument.

[Indy 3,300]

You say the following:

"So my interpretation, according to the legal definition is that calling Gareth Bale a monkey would not be racist because it is not in reference to "race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins."

I would also go so far to say that if a group of black people called Gareth Bale a monkey it would not be deemed racist because it is not in reference to the above reasons. They would be calling the individual a monkey, not the white race as a whole. "

So where''s the legal difference between a single black playing individual being targetted by the crowd and as you say they would be calling the individual a monkey not the black race as a whole?

 

Can this be right under equal laws? Because you can gaurantee this arguement you have here for Bale would not hold any weight if he was from a different racial background, even if you say you were taegetting the individual not the race!

 

That''s the last I have on this subject as it is so fragmented that you have laid out s great post defining the laws and yet your argument is flawed as if the crowd target a whit player and subject him to monkey realted chants it''s just name calling  but if you did the same to a black layer it'' classed as racial? where''s the difference.

 

Just pointing out some real differences being seen from different points of view.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Indy"]So where''s the legal difference between a single black playing individual being targetted by the crowd and as you say they would be calling the individual a monkey not the black race as a whole?

 

Can this be right under equal laws? Because you can gaurantee this arguement you have here for Bale would not hold any weight if he was from a different racial background, even if you say you were taegetting the individual not the race!

 

That''s the last I have on this subject as it is so fragmented that you have laid out s great post defining the laws and yet your argument is flawed as if the crowd target a whit player and subject him to monkey realted chants it''s just name calling  but if you did the same to a black layer it'' classed as racial? where''s the difference.

 

Just pointing out some real differences being seen from different points of view.

[/quote]The difference lies in the historical evidence of black players being targeted by monkey chants. Anyone with a passing interest in football knows that this has gone on for years and continues to be a blight on the game in some parts of Europe. If you were considering making such a chant to a black player because you really thought that he looked like a monkey then you would obviously consider the historical context (as would the courts should you be charged). There is no precedence of white players being racially abused in this country so if you are Gareth Bale and you spot a black fan calling you a chimp you are, quite rightly, going to struggle to make any race related charge stick.

[Morisons Prozac 0]

This thread has revealed a few posters to be complete idiots

[Indy 3,300]

Shack you are of course right, but in the eye''e of the law history cannot be used to set a presedence, it must be the same for everyone whatever the background. So although I know in practice what Morty and you are saying is the way of things, in the eye of to law and equality, if you chant this at Bale or a black player you stand a chance of being charged!

 

The only reason you guys are saying that this was acceptable is because he''s white and because he looks like a chimp, that in my book is the same as targeting any player and I find it hard to see where the line should be drawn......

 

Now really I have had it with this debate as good as it has been. Time to draw a line under it the same as it''s time to stamp out racism in all walks of life not just football.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Morisons Prozac"]This thread has revealed a few posters to be complete idiots[/quote][Y]

[Shankslad 0]

Can abuse delivered to someone of the same race as the abuser be deemed racist?   As is the case with Bale at Carrow Road.   Anyone who thinks so may be guilty of racism since they are attaching the use of an animals name as potentially abusive to a particular race - which wasn''t initially part of the issue by intent or design.

 

The bale issue though insulting towards him was not racist in intent.    Anyone thinking it is, could be accused of racism by associating the word Monkey to a race

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Shankslad"]

Can abuse delivered to someone of the same race as the abuser be deemed racist?   As is the case with Bale at Carrow Road.   Anyone who thinks so may be guilty of racism since they are attaching the use of an animals name as potentially abusive to a particular race - which wasn''t initially part of the issue by intent or design.

 The bale issue though insulting towards him was not racist in intent.    Anyone thinking it is, could be accused of racism by associating the word Monkey to a race

[/quote]

What I would like to know is who stands up for the monkey in all this?   Seriously, though, as a species, the human race is quick to lampoon/ostracize  others who they see as different to themselves - this is what is at the heart of racism - it is the fear or threat - imagined or real - to the group as a whole.   At what stage you change the word from abuse to racism is a grey area imo.        Abuse and racism come from the same place in your heart -  if you think its ok to abuse somebody, but then turn round and say I may abuse somebody but I''m not a racist - does that make you a better person?     I think not.  

Imagine what someone might say in a court, or even down the pub  -                      "Its ok, I called Bale a monkey, its ok becauseI''m just abusing him, I''m not a racist".     What does that make them?   Abusive.    How nice.     Its ok to be abusive, is it?   Or call it banter if you like - I would call it abusive banter.  People should just think before they hurl abuse or racist remarks.  Abuse and racism may be different, but to me they come from the same place.

[morty 0]

*Sigh*

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="morty"]*Sigh*[/quote]

Interesting comment, Morty.  Have you actually read my post properly, or are you sighing just because its me?

[morty 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"]*Sigh*[/quote]

Interesting comment, Morty.  Have you actually read my post properly, or are you sighing just because its me?

[/quote]Stop being such a whiney pant wetter.The thread is about racism, which is a criminal offence.It isn''t about lily livered sensabilities and taking the edgy banter out of football.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"]*Sigh*[/quote]

Interesting comment, Morty.  Have you actually read my post properly, or are you sighing just because its me?

[/quote]Stop being such a whiney pant wetter.The thread is about racism, which is a criminal offence.It isn''t about lily livered sensabilities and taking the edgy banter out of football.[/quote]

If you read your own thread,  I was replying to Shankslad and his take on abuse/racism.   As for whiney - you''re having a laugh.

[TIL 1010 4,746]

Just to add something for discussion/debate on this i was reading yesterday that Liverpool have reported concerns to UEFA regarding tonights game in Russia v Zenit St.Petersburg as a reult of a section of the Zenit fans making comments a few days back of a racist nature and also anti gay.

What surprised me was that Liverpool have instructed their players to ignore it if they are subjected to chanting about gay or black players and not to walk off the field !!!!!!!

To me that is the wrong course of action.

[morty 0]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]

Just to add something for discussion/debate on this i was reading yesterday that Liverpool have reported concerns to UEFA regarding tonights game in Russia v Zenit St.Petersburg as a reult of a section of the Zenit fans making comments a few days back of a racist nature and also anti gay.

What surprised me was that Liverpool have instructed their players to ignore it if they are subjected to chanting about gay or black players and not to walk off the field !!!!!!!

To me that is the wrong course of action.

[/quote]I think it depends on the situation. But UEFA should be taking action, not the players. Its fairly patently obvious, given the situation at Zenit, that something unsavoury is going to happen tonight.

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="Stig"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Stig"]I think the lines between general abuse and racism have become ever more blurred. Because calling Gareth Bale a chimp is not an attack on his racial background, it can''t be deemed racist, instead it is just general abuse. If he were to be called all the standard welsh slurs then it could be deemed racial abuse... I think?[/quote]I don''t think they are blurred at all.Racism is about skin colour, there are no laws (as far as I know) governing Xenophobia.[/quote]

Sorry I didn''t mean literally, I mean under the confines of PC. "But surely that has to be racist as well!" and that kind of stuff. I mean, I think I know the difference, but PC being PC makes it difficult to know when you are being racist and when you''re not. Sometimes. [:P]

[/quote]Does it? If you different language with your mates etc that you would use if a black/asian person was there, then you''re probably being racist.On the OT, I heard overt racist language being used by a group of 40-50 somethings away at Doncaster in the champ, aimed at Carl Cort. I heard racist comments being made to a steward at Spurs this season and casual racism from a group of teenagers at Arsenal last year. I''m sure there''s nothing special one way or the other about city supporters, a minority of morons in our midst.   

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="Joanna Grey"]"Racism is the lowest form of anything and should be dealt with as such."

Lower than Rapists? Paedos? Serial killers? Terrorists?[/quote]Literally millions of people have been killed because of racism, is that serious enough for you? Of course we know where your loyalties lie though don''t we.....[/quote]We have to keep this in context though, is a racist coward chanting at a player, from the safety of the terraces as bad as a paedophile?Of course he isn''t.[/quote]In that example of course not, but that coward on a terrace has his mates and sometimes is in a political party. When it comes to a war like the Balkans or a domestic context like Rwanda, those cowards and cretins are the very same who nip next door and top their neighbour. This might seem over the top, but that depends whether you think there''s something special and evil about the serbs, Hutus etc, or they''re mostly just normal people who never had had their racist views shown zero-tolerance and get manipulated by political leaders.Few overt racists show their colours at Norwich though thankfully, and I''m proud that we have a high number of ethinic minorites/women who feel they can come to games and listen to me shouting non-racist abouse ;-)

[morty 0]

[quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="Joanna Grey"]"Racism is the lowest form of anything and should be dealt with as such."

Lower than Rapists? Paedos? Serial killers? Terrorists?[/quote]Literally millions of people have been killed because of racism, is that serious enough for you? Of course we know where your loyalties lie though don''t we.....[/quote]We have to keep this in context though, is a racist coward chanting at a player, from the safety of the terraces as bad as a paedophile?Of course he isn''t.[/quote]In that example of course not, but that coward on a terrace has his mates and sometimes is in a political party. When it comes to a war like the Balkans or a domestic context like Rwanda, those cowards and cretins are the very same who nip next door and top their neighbour. This might seem over the top, but that depends whether you think there''s something special and evil about the serbs, Hutus etc, or they''re mostly just normal people who never had had their racist views shown zero-tolerance and get manipulated by political leaders.Few overt racists show their colours at Norwich though thankfully, and I''m proud that we have a high number of ethinic minorites/women who feel they can come to games and listen to me shouting non-racist abouse ;-) [/quote]I take your points, and agree.However, we have to be careful that the PC brigade don''t railroad what is basically a small problem (compared to recent years)Too often in the past football fans have been tarred with the same brush, and I wouldn''t like this issue to be turned into "All football fans are racist thugs"

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

If people haven''t heard racism at Carrow Road or other football grounds they must go there in a bubble! Our society has an inherent racist under current which is more likely to boil over when emotions run high or alcohol has been consumed. ("When drink is in wit is out" being a pretty accurate Norfolk saying.) Now most of these people aren''t really bad people but they carry the values and beliefs they grew up around. Racism is born out of hatred and we aren''t born to hate. An innocent child is just as likely to differentiate between his friends by stating the colour of their clothes as the clolour of their skin. They only learn perceived racial differences from others. At some point hatred replaces innocence in some people and those values stay with them.

 

At the football in the heat of the moment a fan might call out "you black b@stard" to a player and immediately realise he''s done wrong. Maybe would even apologise to those around him. But he wouldn''t have been as racist as the fan next to him who maybe shows his racism in a more subtle way. The fan next to him maybe one who only calls a player a "lazy b@stard" if he''s coloured. This isn''t picked up on straight away but becomes evident over a period of time when you reaslise he only uses these phrases about coloured players. But even he doesn''t realise he''s doing it. It''s a belief ingrained in him for so many years. The famous Ron Atkinson incident is proof of how this happens.

 

I believe it will take time to irradicate the inherent under current of racism in our country. But through education and evolution it will disappear. We are already ahead of a lot of countries in this respect. But the real nasty stuff will never be eradicated until hatred is eradicated and that will take much longer.

 [/quote]Surely we''re all "coloured" are we not? At this moment in time I am radiating a bluey white hue but in summer time I tend to change colour to quite dark brown.Spoiled an otherwise excellent post for me NN.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

Yes we are Andy. But the reason why so many people are shy of publicly discussing these issues is through fear of writing the wrong words or being mis-understood.

 

 

[morty 0]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

If people haven''t heard racism at Carrow Road or other football grounds they must go there in a bubble! Our society has an inherent racist under current which is more likely to boil over when emotions run high or alcohol has been consumed. ("When drink is in wit is out" being a pretty accurate Norfolk saying.) Now most of these people aren''t really bad people but they carry the values and beliefs they grew up around. Racism is born out of hatred and we aren''t born to hate. An innocent child is just as likely to differentiate between his friends by stating the colour of their clothes as the clolour of their skin. They only learn perceived racial differences from others. At some point hatred replaces innocence in some people and those values stay with them.

 

At the football in the heat of the moment a fan might call out "you black b@stard" to a player and immediately realise he''s done wrong. Maybe would even apologise to those around him. But he wouldn''t have been as racist as the fan next to him who maybe shows his racism in a more subtle way. The fan next to him maybe one who only calls a player a "lazy b@stard" if he''s coloured. This isn''t picked up on straight away but becomes evident over a period of time when you reaslise he only uses these phrases about coloured players. But even he doesn''t realise he''s doing it. It''s a belief ingrained in him for so many years. The famous Ron Atkinson incident is proof of how this happens.

 

I believe it will take time to irradicate the inherent under current of racism in our country. But through education and evolution it will disappear. We are already ahead of a lot of countries in this respect. But the real nasty stuff will never be eradicated until hatred is eradicated and that will take much longer.

 [/quote]Surely we''re all "coloured" are we not? At this moment in time I am radiating a bluey white hue but in summer time I tend to change colour to quite dark brown.Spoiled an otherwise excellent post for me NN.[/quote]I shall pick up on this point, as it is interesting.I don''t have many black friends, its just how it is, its not some sort of lifestyle choice.Recently I referred to someone as "coloured" only to discover that black people find the phrase offensive, which I actually didn''t know, as this description used to be perfectly acceptable (and actually respectful) but I obviously didn''t get the memo when this changed.So this shows a few things, yes, technically you can be inadvertently insulting, but things always need to be taken in context, and the actual intent measured.

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="Joanna Grey"]"Racism is the lowest form of anything and should be dealt with as such."

Lower than Rapists? Paedos? Serial killers? Terrorists?[/quote]Literally millions of people have been killed because of racism, is that serious enough for you? Of course we know where your loyalties lie though don''t we.....[/quote]We have to keep this in context though, is a racist coward chanting at a player, from the safety of the terraces as bad as a paedophile?Of course he isn''t.[/quote]In that example of course not, but that coward on a terrace has his mates and sometimes is in a political party. When it comes to a war like the Balkans or a domestic context like Rwanda, those cowards and cretins are the very same who nip next door and top their neighbour. This might seem over the top, but that depends whether you think there''s something special and evil about the serbs, Hutus etc, or they''re mostly just normal people who never had had their racist views shown zero-tolerance and get manipulated by political leaders.Few overt racists show their colours at Norwich though thankfully, and I''m proud that we have a high number of ethinic minorites/women who feel they can come to games and listen to me shouting non-racist abouse ;-) [/quote]I take your points, and agree.However, we have to be careful that the PC brigade don''t railroad what is basically a small problem (compared to recent years)Too often in the past football fans have been tarred with the same brush, and I wouldn''t like this issue to be turned into "All football fans are racist thugs"

[/quote]Agreed. There''s clearly less overt racism on the terraces and in general life than even a few years ago and that''s great, but it''s still there and as Spain, Greece & Russia are showing it just takes economic hard times to bring it out. Shouting and getting worked up is part of the fun at football and we don''t want to lose that, but the motives of the "PC brigade" are about making life a level playing field for everyone even if it seems over the top sometimes. I have a lot of personal experience of being an ethnic minority (white in a non-white majority) and it certainly makes you see life in a different way and see how hard it is being a minority.

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Yes we are Andy. But the reason why so many people are shy of publicly discussing these issues is through fear of writing the wrong words or being mis-understood.

 [/quote]Indeed… but my own personal "bette noir" is the word "coloured" when used in this type of situation. It appears to be the one descriptive noun that differentiates one person from another based on a lazy observation from a very long time ago. We are all as one, just different takes on the same theme, but we are all coloured… of that there is no doubt.I''ve never understood why anyone feels the need to differentiate one person over another based on the colour of their skin, their religious beliefs or their sexual orientation… says the caucasion, hetrosexual atheist.Like I said, just my view.

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

If people haven''t heard racism at Carrow Road or other football grounds they must go there in a bubble! Our society has an inherent racist under current which is more likely to boil over when emotions run high or alcohol has been consumed. ("When drink is in wit is out" being a pretty accurate Norfolk saying.) Now most of these people aren''t really bad people but they carry the values and beliefs they grew up around. Racism is born out of hatred and we aren''t born to hate. An innocent child is just as likely to differentiate between his friends by stating the colour of their clothes as the clolour of their skin. They only learn perceived racial differences from others. At some point hatred replaces innocence in some people and those values stay with them.

 

At the football in the heat of the moment a fan might call out "you black b@stard" to a player and immediately realise he''s done wrong. Maybe would even apologise to those around him. But he wouldn''t have been as racist as the fan next to him who maybe shows his racism in a more subtle way. The fan next to him maybe one who only calls a player a "lazy b@stard" if he''s coloured. This isn''t picked up on straight away but becomes evident over a period of time when you reaslise he only uses these phrases about coloured players. But even he doesn''t realise he''s doing it. It''s a belief ingrained in him for so many years. The famous Ron Atkinson incident is proof of how this happens.

 

I believe it will take time to irradicate the inherent under current of racism in our country. But through education and evolution it will disappear. We are already ahead of a lot of countries in this respect. But the real nasty stuff will never be eradicated until hatred is eradicated and that will take much longer.

 [/quote]Surely we''re all "coloured" are we not? At this moment in time I am radiating a bluey white hue but in summer time I tend to change colour to quite dark brown.Spoiled an otherwise excellent post for me NN.[/quote]I shall pick up on this point, as it is interesting.I don''t have many black friends, its just how it is, its not some sort of lifestyle choice.Recently I referred to someone as "coloured" only to discover that black people find the phrase offensive, which I actually didn''t know, as this description used to be perfectly acceptable (and actually respectful) but I obviously didn''t get the memo when this changed.So this shows a few things, yes, technically you can be inadvertently insulting, but things always need to be taken in context, and the actual intent measured.[/quote]The reason people don''t like being called coloured is that its a term given by white people to refer to everyone else. It suggests there is two kinds of people in the world. Its superficial and says nothing about racial background.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Jerzy Krukowski"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

If people haven''t heard racism at Carrow Road or other football grounds they must go there in a bubble! Our society has an inherent racist under current which is more likely to boil over when emotions run high or alcohol has been consumed. ("When drink is in wit is out" being a pretty accurate Norfolk saying.) Now most of these people aren''t really bad people but they carry the values and beliefs they grew up around. Racism is born out of hatred and we aren''t born to hate. An innocent child is just as likely to differentiate between his friends by stating the colour of their clothes as the clolour of their skin. They only learn perceived racial differences from others. At some point hatred replaces innocence in some people and those values stay with them.

 

At the football in the heat of the moment a fan might call out "you black b@stard" to a player and immediately realise he''s done wrong. Maybe would even apologise to those around him. But he wouldn''t have been as racist as the fan next to him who maybe shows his racism in a more subtle way. The fan next to him maybe one who only calls a player a "lazy b@stard" if he''s coloured. This isn''t picked up on straight away but becomes evident over a period of time when you reaslise he only uses these phrases about coloured players. But even he doesn''t realise he''s doing it. It''s a belief ingrained in him for so many years. The famous Ron Atkinson incident is proof of how this happens.

 

I believe it will take time to irradicate the inherent under current of racism in our country. But through education and evolution it will disappear. We are already ahead of a lot of countries in this respect. But the real nasty stuff will never be eradicated until hatred is eradicated and that will take much longer.

 [/quote]Surely we''re all "coloured" are we not? At this moment in time I am radiating a bluey white hue but in summer time I tend to change colour to quite dark brown.Spoiled an otherwise excellent post for me NN.[/quote]I shall pick up on this point, as it is interesting.I don''t have many black friends, its just how it is, its not some sort of lifestyle choice.Recently I referred to someone as "coloured" only to discover that black people find the phrase offensive, which I actually didn''t know, as this description used to be perfectly acceptable (and actually respectful) but I obviously didn''t get the memo when this changed.So this shows a few things, yes, technically you can be inadvertently insulting, but things always need to be taken in context, and the actual intent measured.[/quote]The reason people don''t like being called coloured is that its a term given by white people to refer to everyone else. It suggests there is two kinds of people in the world. Its superficial and says nothing about racial background. [/quote]Oh I know the reasons, but my point was that I caused offence to someone, without meaning to. A lot of people, especially of the older variety cause offence in this way, totally unintentionally.And I think the division has to be made between lack of education, whether intentional or not, and outright nastiness.

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Yes we are Andy. But the reason why so many people are shy of publicly discussing these issues is through fear of writing the wrong words or being mis-understood.

 [/quote]

Indeed… but my own personal "bette noir" is the word "coloured" when used in this type of situation. It appears to be the one descriptive noun that differentiates one person from another based on a lazy observation from a very long time ago. We are all as one, just different takes on the same theme, but we are all coloured… of that there is no doubt.

I''ve never understood why anyone feels the need to differentiate one person over another based on the colour of their skin, their religious beliefs or their sexual orientation… says the caucasion, hetrosexual atheist.

Like I said, just my view.
[/quote]

 

I agree with that Andy.In the case of my post I could have referred to "all other colours" or gone into a long list of descriptions for every race I was referring to. The objections to the way people word their points and subsequent fear of saying the wrong thing means that the discussions which would help educate all of us don''t happen.

 

 

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Yes we are Andy. But the reason why so many people are shy of publicly discussing these issues is through fear of writing the wrong words or being mis-understood.

 [/quote]Indeed… but my own personal "bette noir" is the word "coloured" when used in this type of situation. It appears to be the one descriptive noun that differentiates one person from another based on a lazy observation from a very long time ago. We are all as one, just different takes on the same theme, but we are all coloured… of that there is no doubt.I''ve never understood why anyone feels the need to differentiate one person over another based on the colour of their skin, their religious beliefs or their sexual orientation… says the caucasion, hetrosexual atheist.Like I said, just my view.[/quote]

 

I agree with that Andy.In the case of my post I could have referred to "all other colours" or gone into a long list of descriptions for every race I was referring to. The objections to the way people word their points and subsequent fear of saying the wrong thing means that the discussions which would help educate all of us don''t happen.

 

 

[/quote]I understood that with your post NN. Like I said, otherwise a top post and one that people would do well to read.I always get shot down for being grumpy and PC… but I simply work on the theory that if I mention it long enough and often enough people might stop and think about what they say. I do understand that lots of people use these type of words without ever intending offence and are sometimes quite upset when they find out that such words can cause offence to different folk.I know you are not a racist NN, I always find your posts thoughtful and well worth a read, just wanted to make my point about what I find offensive.I too think people should try and express themselves without tying themselves up in knots about being overly PC… just so long as they are happy to engage in a grown up conversation about why some people find the words they have used offensive.Re: the original post, I still hear rumblings of both covert and overt racism around the Fortress… I try to do my bit to illuminate. Its not always appreciated alas.

[Monty13 2,234]

I think you make a good point Nutty. My mother doesn''t have a racist bone in her body, but she refered to my black friends mum as "a lovely coloured woman", it made me cringe, she is just of a different time and understanding of racism, something thats been the norm for her for so long it seems strange to her that its become offensive.

Norfolk has a problem as without exposure to other ethnic backgrounds/cultures you do have unintentional racism from people who cause offence, but don''t mean to. The problem is exposure is just as likely to promote racism, segregation and conflict as it is to educate.

 

 

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,535]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"][
Re: the original post, I still hear rumblings of both covert and overt racism around the Fortress… I try to do my bit to illuminate. Its not always appreciated alas.
[/quote]

 

 

I bet you do Andy[Y]  But sometimes I hold my tongue. Through my job and my generation I am often around very racist conversations that are really quite unacceptable. But these people don''t believe they are racist. They have deep rooted beliefs that can only be surpressed and not removed. That''s why they''re more likely to come out when folk are drinking or emotions running high as at the Fortress. This inherent racism will disappear over the generations. But hatred.....