holt or morison?

[Bryangunnshairline 0]

So the five in midfield and one up top has been working well so far but will it last? And is morison best for that position? For me morison is limited. He played really well v swansea bringing others into the game but at old trafford and anfield he looked lost and did not show the pace he has. His first touch is not clever either. Morison is our "heskey" . Now I might sound harsh but I keep asking myself how many shots at goal has morison had? When has he linked up well with Wes? I think a hungry Holt that has lost a bit of weight, showed far more energy v liverpool is knocking on the managers door for that one up top position. Holt is so much better at shooting and hold up play in my eyes so tells me he should start....

[BarclayCanary (Former HDDH) 0]

How many games have you watched? Morison has been exceptional and is improving with each game he is playing.

He is there not to just score goals but bring other players into it.

For me Morison should start and Holt should be out super sub.

[Bryangunnshairline 0]

Most of them. I think morison did not a lot last time out and Holt did a lot more and should be given the front man spot. But no doubt we will be 0 -0 with 60 mins to go and Holt will bag the winner on as a sub.

[splutcho 177]

Morison has been fantastic. Nobody likes the fact that he''s come in and taken Holty''s place but there''s a reason Lambert keeps playing him.

Not only that, Holt won''t be able to play the position Morison does.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,653]

[quote user="splutcho"]Morison has been fantastic. Nobody likes the fact that he''s come in and taken Holty''s place but there''s a reason Lambert keeps playing him. Not only that, Holt won''t be able to play the position Morison does.[/quote]

Exactly, Holt has never really done well as the lone man up front. I seem to remember Lambert trying it a few times in League One and the Championship and it never really working out. Holt works really well along side another striker - just look at his goal against Liverpool, he took up a wide position knowing that the Liverpool defenders were being drawn towards Morison.

 

Morison will keep his place against Blackburn I''m sure, but should imagine Holt will be the first player Lambert turns to if we need a goal.

[BarclayCanary (Former HDDH) 0]

Morison is there as well to drag defenders out of position and to wear them out, Morison is getting better and better with each game, saying that Holt is as well when he comes on.

[smooth 114]

Its a nice dilemma isn''t it?

Personally I would like both or certainly two strikers in the starting 11, but Morison has warranted his place. Now he has had a week off from international duty I am sure he wants to score another goal at carrow road this weekend.

I presume it will be the five man midfield, as mentinoed before I just hope hooahan can create some better chances for morison. So far it has been Morison making his own chances and being so far unlucky. But I love his confidence, and that is the same with Holt. He is coming on and being a handful and prepared to go for goal. Neither has a lack of confidence and both will be pushing each other.

I expect us to re-vert to the 4-5-1 to start but I also expect the 4-4-2 with both of them for the last 20 minutes.

It would not surprise me if this goalless till that change and then I can see a goal from Morison and Holt sealing a cracking 2-0 with a clean sheet to boot.

Can''t wait for the game.

[jammis 0]

I''ve had this discussion with friends after the Manchester United game.

Morison got into some great positions but his final ball let him down, you could imagine Holt making the right choice in those scenarios - the only problem being he perhaps isn''t mobile enough to get into those positions...

Against the bigger teams - Liverpool and Chelsea - Holt has shown that he and Morison work very well together, and cause really havoc. Against the smaller teams Morison seems fine working on his own with Wes off his shoulder.

But when it comes down to the season as a whole, as Lambert says, its about the squad depth, and having a choice of styles and attributes is going to be key to staying up.

[. 0]

Grant Holt every time.He does much, much more than just score goals.

[G 0]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]Grant Holt every time.

He does much, much more than just score goals.
[/quote]

 

Did you see Morison''s last home match? Did you miss what Lambert said about him? Our top scorer for the last two seasons isn''t out the team for no reason.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]Grant Holt every time. He does much, much more than just score goals.
[/quote]

 

The irony being that this season it is Morison who provided much more than goals whilst Holt has been the predator and pounced on two defensive mistakes.

 

You''re slipping Cluck. I would expect that sort of comment from a teenager but a man of your age? Do you have posters of him on your wall?

 

[;)]

[UEA Canary 0]

You cannot argue with the success of the 4-2-3-1 formation with Morison leading the attack, so it would be unfair to drop Morison having done nothing wrong and contributing to goals, if not scoring them. I think Pilkington, Hoolahan and Bennett have to play for the creativity they offer us, so that means only 1 striker currently, so for the time being Holt will have to keep putting in performances off the bench and wait for his opportunity to start, which he will get sooner or later. Then it''s over to him to put in a performance that makes him undroppable, something Martin, Fox, Johnson etc have succeeded in since coming in after not starting the season.

It''s a nice problem to have, not that it''s a problem at all! Don''t really care which one plays as long as they are playing well in a winning team.

[ZLF 282]

Surely its all about the results and performances?    Morison has been an intergral part of the points picked up over the last 6 games;  if the team works well at Manure & Liverpool and wins games at home against Swansea & Sunderland why on earth would we change it for Blackburn?!?  His overall contribution has been good and improving still;  earlier in the season he was comfortably better than Holt; and was probably again on Sat.

 

That morison is not shooting or scoring really does not matter if the team are picking up points;  they are and whats even better is the team is performning so well at the same time.  Is he better than Holt?  Maybe, maybe not;   but the team has performed significantly better with 4-2-3-1 with the players that have started for the last 6 games than the first 3.   That means no de laet and no holt.

 

Keep holt as a super sub for now.  

[. 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]Grant Holt every time. He does much, much more than just score goals.[/quote]

 

The irony being that this season it is Morison who provided much more than goals whilst Holt has been the predator and pounced on two defensive mistakes.

 

You''re slipping Cluck. I would expect that sort of comment from a teenager but a man of your age? Do you have posters of him on your wall?

 

[;)]

[/quote]It''s called loyalty to those who have served us well......Maybe it''s an ''age'' thing in that we don''t believe in throwing something special away simply because of the ''next best thing in the shop window''. 

[ZLF 282]

No one is throwing Holt away though, its a squad game and holt will continue to get sub chances and its a releif to finally have options on the bench  If Morison is injured or his form dips then I will be happy for holt to play;  its just morison is currently better for the team.

 

If the next best thing in the shop window is an improvement why would you not pick him??  Its like signing Messi yet sticking with Wessi because he has been here a while!

 

 

[Boyo 0]

Holt for me.  I just think he offers us a whole lot more than Morison.  Morison has been okay but he hasn''t ever really looked like scoring goal after goal.  Take the last match against Liverpool for example.  Was Morison a handful? Did he look like scoring? Did he look like he was leading from the front? Not in my opinion.  Holt came on and changed the game.  Carragher and Skrtel didn''t know what had hit them, they had a much tougher time when Holt was on the pitch.

[marvin the martian 0]

That may be because they had two players to mark instead of one. Not saying Holt didn''t make a difference though.

[Boyo 0]

[quote user="marvin the martian"]That may be because they had two players to mark instead of one. Not saying Holt didn''t make a difference though.[/quote]

 

True but Morison won literally nothing in the air against them and he couldn''t hold it up and get Wes into the game at all.  The first half Liverpool battered us, they could have been 3/4-0 up at half time and I think this was because we kept playing it into Morison who couldn''t hold it up and the ball just kept coming straight back at us in wave after wave of Liverpool pressure.

 

Second half Holt comes on at about 50/55 mins? And then Wes starts to get into the game a bit more and we have prolonged periods of possesion and actually look like scoring and getting something out of the game.

 

Holt will cause Blackburns defence a lot more problems than Morison, especially as it will be Samba who is marking them.

[Bryangunnshairline 0]

Thank you at last someone that can see what I''m on about. I''m not knocking morison for how he played v swansea but he done nothing last time out. People are saying the 451 is working so stick with it. Yes it has got us some good results but we looked clueless v Liverpool and it was sticking holt on and go 442 that won us the points . Doing that at 60 minutes won''t pay off everytime. Wes links up far better with holty aswell.

[. 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

No one is throwing Holt away though, its a squad game and holt will continue to get sub chances and its a releif to finally have options on the bench  If Morison is injured or his form dips then I will be happy for holt to play;  its just morison is currently better for the team.

 

If the next best thing in the shop window is an improvement why would you not pick him??  Its like signing Messi yet sticking with Wessi because he has been here a while!

 

 

[/quote]Now you''re discussing a different point. I was responding to the Holt or Morison question and was simply stating that the latter should not eclipse Grant Holt regarding selection based on ''who is best''.It all boils down to who Paul Lambert wants to play on the day and I''m not about to question any of his decisions.

[curly_whirly_tipz 0]

I think Morison deserves to keep his palce, but then Holt maybe deserves to play as he has proved he can score goals... A good dilema to have.

With this in mind I would keep the team as it is and unleash the Holt 60/70mins if needed! However if in a few games Morison hasnt been so effective than previously then maybe have a change of tactics. Morison may not be banging them in but he has certainly set up a few which is just as important.

[lobstercatcher2 0]

how the hell can you think about changing anything,we are doing far better than most of us expected.Start with the same team and bring holt on .I am sure he is man enough to wait for his chance when things start to go pear shapped and we need to rethink tatics

[Lambert is King 0]

Here are the stats ( premier league ) to date but of course they can be dismissed or taken into account depending on which side you are on.

They have actually had a similar amount of time on the pitch Holt = 465 mins Morison = 526 mins

Whilst Holt has been on the pitch as a team we have scored 4 goals and whilst Morison has been on the pitch we have scored 10 goals this is from a total of 11 goals

When Holt started our results were Draw / Draw / Lost / Lost

When Morison started our results were Draw / Won / Won / Lost / Won / Draw

Holt has also commited 21 fouls thats more than anyone else in the PL this season

I am just glad Lambert knows whats best and wether Holt plays or not the team is not picked on sentiment but who will win for us that day.

 

[splutcho 177]

Good post LiK.

[ZLF 282]

[quote user="Paul Cluckbert "]...don''t believe in throwing something special away...   [/quote]

those not your words then cluck?

no was has suggested throwing holt away, apart from, um, you suggesting others want to?

[judderman 0]

[quote user="Lambert is King"]

Here are the stats ( premier league ) to date but of course they can be dismissed or taken into account depending on which side you are on.

They have actually had a similar amount of time on the pitch Holt = 465 mins Morison = 526 mins

Whilst Holt has been on the pitch as a team we have scored 4 goals and whilst Morison has been on the pitch we have scored 10 goals this is from a total of 11 goals

When Holt started our results were Draw / Draw / Lost / Lost

When Morison started our results were Draw / Won / Won / Lost / Won / Draw

Holt has also commited 21 fouls thats more than anyone else in the PL this season

I am just glad Lambert knows whats best and wether Holt plays or not the team is not picked on sentiment but who will win for us that day.

 

[/quote]Good post. Of course stats aren''t the answer but they provide some clues.I can see the argument the people calling for Holt are making. However, I do believe that to play Holt we would need to change the system and play 2 upfront, and I''m not sure I can see Lambert making that decision until we hit a run of poor form on the 4-5-1 formation.Holt doesn''t suit the lone striker role. I can''t quite specify why this is, but it''s been true since he joined us. Morison, on the other hand, seems to thrive in it, linking up very well with the wide men who like to come in (like Pilkington, for whom he''s directly set up 2 goals).Against Liverpool people say he was poor, but he was isolated, because of Liverpool''s pressure pushing the rest of the team back. We made so many last ditch tackles in the penalty area, which inevitably brings the whole team back into their third. When the ball is cleared, what exactly do we expect him to do? Usually when we have played 4-5-1 he has been very well supported by the 3 attacking midfielders, but isolate any lone striker and they will struggle. Even if he wins stuff in the air, it will go to the opposition because there''s no one to challenge for the second ball.Holt will probably always be a bit more prolific in front of goal, I suspect, but Morison''s role as a loan striker is undoubtedly more about creating than scoring. Against Liverpool we needed more attacking options, so playing 2 upfront brought that and made a different option for trying to get out of our third. Against Blackburn, we can expect that the 5 in midfield will be able to support Morison well and facilitate him to do as well as he did against Swansea - the best no.9 display Lambert has seen for years he said!

[smooth 114]

Judderman, I wouldn''t say Morison thrives on being the lone striker.

I think he does exceptionally well, but I would rather see him with a strike partner. Like I have said I wish Hoolahan can start being more productive in the final third setting up Morison and being a threat.

Both will score goals but Morison at the moment is doing it on his own, and the sooner someone sets him up the better

[splutcho 177]

How do you suggest we play all three of Holt, Morison, and Hoolahan? We all know Wes isn''t as effective on the left of midfield, and I can''t see us playing the diamond, it gives the opposition too much space.

[Bryangunnshairline 0]

where did he play when holt came on v liverpool?

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="Bryangunnshairline"]where did he play when holt came on v liverpool?[/quote]

 

On the left for five minutes before switching with Pilkington and playing nominally on the right.

 

I think we need to be careful not to read too much into thirty minutes against Liverpool. Especially at the expense of the four games prior to this when we won three and gave Man Utd a real scare in their own backyard. I would agree that Morison did not have his best game against Liverpool but he wasn''t helped by a weak performance by our midfield (Johnson had his worst game since signing and Fox was anonymous) which led to him becoming increasingly isolated. The introduction of Holt gave us much more of an attacking threat in this game but that doesn''t mean we should ditch a system which has been sucessful over the last month or so or the players who have made it work so well.

 

But unfortunately this is what happens when you elevate some players above their colleagues in a team game. Grant Holt has been excellent for us from the moment he joined but this idea that he is our talisman and somehow more important then the rest of the team is very unhealthy. It is what breeds the criticism of Morison whose only crime seems to have been taking the place of a ''legend''. Take a look back at the best Norwich sides of the past and I''ll bet that the players in those teams were all of quite similar ability. I can''t speak with any authority about teams prior to the 80s but whilst the teams I grew up watching always sold it''s ''stars'' there was never any question that they were more important than the rest of the team. Ian Crook was as important as Ruel Fox despite never leaving the club for big money. Culverhouse was as important as Sutton and Bowen as important as Gordon. This desire to have one talisman who means more to the fans than any other player is fine for kids who want posters on their bedroom walls but we''re all adults here. If there is one thing you should have learned from Paul Lambert it is that no one player is more important than the team.