England vs. Spain - Just noticed how ridiculous Spain's squad is

[Bovril 219]

England vs. Spain - Just noticed how ridiculous Spain''s squad is:

GK: Casillas, Valdes, Reina (All won the champions league)

GK: Hart, Carsson, Stockdale (1 x FA Cup between them)

Casillas, Xavi, Puyol, Torres and Alonso = 500 caps

Spain first XI: Casillas, Ramos, Puyol, Pique, Alba, Xavi, Alonso, Busquets, Iniesta, Villa and Llorente

Subs: Torres, Mata and David Silva

Cesc Fabregas to warm up the keeper pre-game...

Luckily England have Gabby Agbonlahor, Gareth Barry and Bobby Zamora

[Shack Attack 0]

There is a massive gulf between the two squads. It may be a little premature but I think you can almost make an argument for that Spanish squad to be the most talented of all time in terms of it''s pure depth. Maybe we should wait until after Brazil 2014 to make a judgement as that may well be a natural end to some of those players international careers but if they continue in their current vein they would have to be considered as one of the best of all time.

 

I''ll take a 2-0 defeat right now if anyone is offering [:D]

[CambridgeCanary 0]

I''m not sure that ridiculous is the best word to describe such an awesome squad but hey.

It does bring me back to something I''ve raised before. Our press and especially the tabloids are always tellings us about world class English players. How many English players would get into that squad? In my view none. The most likely candidate is Cole and only because Alba is the weakest Spaniard. Terry, Rooney and gerrard would noteven make the bench.

England has a huge way to go before we can seriously compete with the best teams in the world. I think the best outcome is for England to be thrashed. We all know how a 1-7 home defeat makes the unthinkable happen and can lead to reappraisals and better times.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]. How many English players would get into that squad? In my view none. .[/quote]

 

To look at it from another angle, how many of the current England team would get into the Barcelona squad, never mind the Spain one ?

 

If Catalonia had a national team, England would struggle badly against it .

[bjg123 0]

The Spanish 2nd 11 may be the 2nd best National team in the world, it''s certainly miles better than England''s. Their 3rd 11 is probably better than us.

GK: Victor Valdes

DR:

DL: Jordi Alba

DC: Raul Albiol

DC: Alvaro Dominiquez*

DR: Alvaro Arbeloa

AMR: Jesus Navas

MC: Javi Martinez

MC: Cesc Fabregas

AML: Juan Manuel Mata

AMC: David Silva

ST: Fernando Llorente

*not in squad, only 3 centre backs called up

[exiled blue 0]

" Our press and especially the tabloids are always tellings us about world class English players. "

this has been a pet hate of mine for years. the self delusion and smugnees in the media, that insists an english player would get anywhere near a `world11` or squad of 16 or however many. the oft quoted names, lampard, gerrard, rooney etc are no more than slightly above average at best. world class?, nowhere near.

as for the spanish squad, i want `merlin`(david silva) to start, for purely selfish reasons!!.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="exiled blue"] as for the spanish squad, i want `merlin`(david silva) to start, for purely selfish reasons!!.[/quote]

 

I was going to say that surely you would want him not to play so as to avoid injury but then I realised that the chances of any of our leaden footed cloggers getting close enough to kick him are pretty slim.

 

[;)]

[exiled blue 0]

that is always a worry. we nearly always seem to lose somebody on international duty to injury. and i wouldn`t want him injured for your visit... ;)

[Carlton Canary 0]

They''re not that good! Reina hasn''t even won the champions league!!!

P.S. - Spain are quite clearly the greatest National side this world has seen. They blow my mind every time I see them.

Reina still hasn''t won the champions league though!

[One Flew Over... 33]

I don''t think anyone is saying England players would get in a World Cup XI now, but there was definitely a case a few years ago when it was English clubs winning the Champions League. But England always seem to be lacking one or two decent players in key positions (last decent England goalkeeper? Decent all-out striker since Owen circa 2002?)Its tournament football so Spain are never going to walk it. They managed to win a world cup by scoring only 8 goals, and losing to Switzerland..

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Holt Bullies Bigger Boys"]

Spain are quite clearly the greatest National side this world has seen. They blow my mind every time I see them.[/quote]

 

Assuming you''re serious...and it is all a matter of opinion, and it also depends how far you go back, but I can think of four teams I would place above Spain at the moment, because they were all-round teams, with talent all the way through, which I don''t think quite yet applies to Spain, for all their possession:

 

Brazil 1970.

 

West Germany between 1972 and 1974 (winning the Euro Championships and the World Cup).

 

The Netherlands around 1974, even though they lost the World Cup final.

 

The under-rated Italy team that won the 1982 World Cup.

 

[Gingerpele 0]

Spain could very easily win the next two major comps, Xavi might not be as effective in 2 and half years time for the 2014 WC, but Fabregas as a replacement isn''t too bad. Puyol probably won''t make the 2014 WC will he? But they still have other CBs, plus they don''t need them anyway, half the time Barca are playing midfielders and full backs at CB, doesn''t do them much harm.

And Purple, while i''m too young to have seen any of those nations, your reasoning as to why they are above Spain, being all-round teams, why does that make them better? And Spain, surely are an all round team, because so much of their success comes from being able to keep hold of the ball, pass it around in all areas of the pitch, pressing all over the pitch, leading the other team into attacks so they can counter attack etc etc etc. Watching Spain (And Barca, the only difference between the two is essentially Messi''s ability) is almost like watching perfect football. While i''m sure the teams you quoted were also very good, Spain are simply amazing, and when they win the next two major trophies, then surely there will be no doubt as to whom the greatest national side ever was.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]Spain could very easily win the next two major comps, Xavi might not be as effective in 2 and half years time for the 2014 WC, but Fabregas as a replacement isn''t too bad. Puyol probably won''t make the 2014 WC will he? But they still have other CBs, plus they don''t need them anyway, half the time Barca are playing midfielders and full backs at CB, doesn''t do them much harm. And Purple, while i''m too young to have seen any of those nations, your reasoning as to why they are above Spain, being all-round teams, why does that make them better? And Spain, surely are an all round team, because so much of their success comes from being able to keep hold of the ball, pass it around in all areas of the pitch, pressing all over the pitch, leading the other team into attacks so they can counter attack etc etc etc. Watching Spain (And Barca, the only difference between the two is essentially Messi''s ability) is almost like watching perfect football. While i''m sure the teams you quoted were also very good, Spain are simply amazing, and when they win the next two major trophies, then surely there will be no doubt as to whom the greatest national side ever was.[/quote]

 

GP, as I said it is all a matter of opnion, but what worries me about Spain is that they don''t score that many goals, for all that possession that you mention. Eight in seven games (including one with extra-time) to win the 2010 World Cup. For me they lack that touch either of genius or of dead-eyed finishing that can make the difference when the opposition doesn''t cave in. As the Dutch didn''t in that final, and it took extra time.

 

Take the four teams I mentioned. Each had the kind of player I''me thinking of: Pele, Gerd Muller, Cruyff and Rossi. And the 1970 Brazilian team, apart from Pele, also had Jairzinho, Rivelino and Tostao. All capable of game-winning brilliance. I don''t yet see that with Spain. If Messi was Spanish, of course, it might be another matter, but he isn''t.

 

[Gingerpele 0]

I think now Silva is starting to shine a bit, he could just fill that role. Iniesta has that ability at times, but doesn''t often show it. Players like Pedro, Jesus Navas, David Villa also should/could have the ability to really change the game.

I think in the World Cup, Spain were slightly more negative/less attacking than normal because they really wanted to win. They knew if they kept the ball off Netherlands, then they would eventually win.

Thinking about the WC final in a bit more detail, you could argue that the Dutch should have got 2/3 players sent off in the first/second half, surely meaning Spain would have scored in the 90 minuets. Or you could argue, ignoring the lack of early red cards, you could then say they really should have won it, when Robben went through one on one. Would have been interesting to see how Spain would have responded to that. Spain just didn''t seem to interested in trying to break the Dutch down to often, and just happily passed the ball around them. Which is a perfectly good tactic and it worked.

[JF 694]

Spain are very good and miles ahead of everyone else right now, But the Brazilian team of 1970 will always be seen as the greatest national football team.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="JF"]Spain are very good and miles ahead of everyone else right now, But the Brazilian team of 1970 will always be seen as the greatest national football team.[/quote]

 

I''m too young to have seen the Hungarian team of the 1950s; the 1970 Brazil team is the best in my watching lifetime. The current Spain team is not near that level yet, I would say, and I''m not even sure they are that much ahead of everyone else. The Euro 2012 finals will be interesting. Germany (who won all their qualifying games) are a youngish (well-managed) side that is likely to get better. Marco Reus seems a coming player.

[AndyJR 0]

I predict we will lose 6 - 1, then we can all get back to the proper footy the following week.

[Aggy 755]

The thing with Spain is that they''re just so boring!

[Shack Attack 0]

These kind of discussions about best teams of all time are always fun but you have to take into account the way the game has changed over the years. A lot of people would agree that the Brazil 1970 team was the greatest team of all time but would they be as effective today where even the weaker countries are capable of putting out well organised defensive teams*?

 

For me the best teams are the innovators. I''m way too young to have seen the Hungary side of the 1950s but they revolutionised the way teams played. The Dutch side of the 1970s may not have invented Total Football (they borrowed some ideas that had earlier been explored by the aforementioned Hungarians and also the Austrian Wünderteam of the 1930s. Plus Dinamo Kyiv were working a similar system independently under Valeri Lobanovsky.) but they took it further than any other. I honestly think you can make a case for the current Spain squad** being similarly innovative. At a time when more and more teams were favouring athletes over footballers they have produced a group of players who are some of the most technically gifted I have ever seen. Players like Xavi and Iniesta who almost belong to another age.

 

If you want to forget that and look purely at results then this Spanish teamcould still end up being the best of all time. The Hungarian side of the 1950s won nothing (except I think an Olympic title?), neither did the Dutch and that Brazil team of the early seventies won one World Cup. Of the teams that are often regarded as the best of all time only the West Germany side of the early to mid 1970s won two major tournaments (European Championships 1972 and World Cup 1974. They were also runners up in the European Championship of 1976). If Spain were to win Euro 2012 (which will be tough as the German team looks very strong to me at present) they would have three major tournament wins.

 

Of course none of this tells the real story of who is the greatest because our opinions are biased towards teams we love watching. I''d take Brazil 1982 (quite how Purple can mention Italy 1982 when they were not even the best team at that World Cup is beyond me [;)]) over all of those mentioned above but I was easily pleased when I was six [:D]

 

* I think this is where the whole ''there are no easy games at international level'' thing comes from. There are easy games but the mid ranking international sides of today tend to be a lot better organised than they were even ten years ago. I guess if you only have a week with your players it is easier to get your defence well drilled than create a fluid attacking team.

 

** It is the strength in depth of the Spain squad which is truly astonishing. Silva, Fabregas, Navas, Reina. These are players who would walk into the England team.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]

These kind of discussions about best teams of all time are always fun but you have to take into account the way the game has changed over the years. A lot of people would agree that the Brazil 1970 team was the greatest team of all time but would they be as effective today where even the weaker countries are capable of putting out well organised defensive teams*?

 

For me the best teams are the innovators. I''m way too young to have seen the Hungary side of the 1950s but they revolutionised the way teams played. The Dutch side of the 1970s may not have invented Total Football (they borrowed some ideas that had earlier been explored by the aforementioned Hungarians and also the Austrian Wünderteam of the 1930s. Plus Dinamo Kyiv were working a similar system independently under Valeri Lobanovsky.) but they took it further than any other. I honestly think you can make a case for the current Spain squad** being similarly innovative. At a time when more and more teams were favouring athletes over footballers they have produced a group of players who are some of the most technically gifted I have ever seen. Players like Xavi and Iniesta who almost belong to another age.

 

If you want to forget that and look purely at results then this Spanish teamcould still end up being the best of all time. The Hungarian side of the 1950s won nothing (except I think an Olympic title?), neither did the Dutch and that Brazil team of the early seventies won one World Cup. Of the teams that are often regarded as the best of all time only the West Germany side of the early to mid 1970s won two major tournaments (European Championships 1972 and World Cup 1974. They were also runners up in the European Championship of 1976). If Spain were to win Euro 2012 (which will be tough as the German team looks very strong to me at present) they would have three major tournament wins.

 

Of course none of this tells the real story of who is the greatest because our opinions are biased towards teams we love watching. I''d take Brazil 1982 (quite how Purple can mention Italy 1982 when they were not even the best team at that World Cup is beyond me [;)]) over all of those mentioned above but I was easily pleased when I was six [:D]

 

* I think this is where the whole ''there are no easy games at international level'' thing comes from. There are easy games but the mid ranking international sides of today tend to be a lot better organised than they were even ten years ago. I guess if you only have a week with your players it is easier to get your defence well drilled than create a fluid attacking team.

 

** It is the strength in depth of the Spain squad which is truly astonishing. Silva, Fabregas, Navas, Reina. These are players who would walk into the England team.

[/quote]

 

Fascinating post, Shack. Firstly I grew up reading about the Austrian Wunderteam and mentioned it here a few weeks ago, pointing out that it had got there first with Total Football. They called it The Whirl, but essentially the same thing.

 

Although obviously I never saw it play (not being QUITE that old) it became in my mind the ideal to aim for, the way football should be played. In that sense I''m a romantic. I loved the football we played under Stringer - the purest I''ve seen from any Norwich City team. And I greatly admire the current Spanish team, for the same reason.

 

But the realist in me knows sometimes purity needs to have a little hard-headed pragmatism mixed in. To that end I''m glad (no really!) that you gently chided me for rating the Italian team of 1982 above the Brazilian team. Because a comparison between those teams perfectly makes my point.

 

Brazilian had four extravagantly gifted midfield players - Zico, Socrates, Cerezo and Falcao. And it was that dazzling midfield, with respect, that has led people to over-rate that side. Because there was nothing else. A sub-standard goalie, a very average defence, and no goalscorer. I''m not sure, but I think all their goals in that tournament came from defenders or midfielders. And a winger - Eder - who was hopeless. This is not an exaggeration; I saw better wingers in League One than him. His trick was to sidle up to the full-back and waggle his foot over the ball. If the fullback feel over in shock, fine. If not, Eder simply passed inside. I never once saw him actually beat his man. What fooled some commentators was that he had a rocket shot (scored against Scotland) but as a winger? Quite, quite hopeless.

 

Italy, by contrast, had Zoff in goal. One of the best dozen or so worldwide, I would say, in my lifetime. A typically stingy Italian defence (Scirea, Cabrini, the hitman Gentile). A complementary midfield of skilful hardman Tardelli and passing genius Antognoni (little-known over here because he played for Fiorentina rather than one of the mega-mega-clubs). A good (not great, but several classes above Eder...) winger in Bruno Conti. And a pure goalscorer in Rossi.

 

And apart from Brazil, they beat Argentina (the holders, with Maradona, Kempes, Ardilles, Passarella...) and Poland and comfortably eased past West Germany in the final, without Antognoni. Because it was a real team, all the way through. I am not yet convinced Spain, for all its passing purity, is a real team all the way through.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

As Shack says, it''s always difficult to do these comparisons "was A in 1954 better than B in 2005 ?" on individual players , let alone teams . The game has changed fundamentally in the last 25 years, not least because of the phenomenal amount of money involved. For a start,it''s much faster than it''s ever been (look at footage from 1970''s games, and you''ll see what I mean !), so is thee any guarantee that the stars of the 60''s could cope with the style of today ?

 

I take the point re "innovators". But, of course, Don Revie was an innovator . So were Graham Taylor/Dave Bassett/ John Beck etc in the 80''s with the percentage ,long ball game. But all these people got pilloried by the purists, despite the fact that, for a while, their styles were VERY successful. The counter argument to that is that people like Arsène Wenger produce football that''s easy on the eye, but, in the final analysis, not terribly successful, trophy -wise.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

Fascinating post, Shack. Firstly I grew up reading about the Austrian Wunderteam and mentioned it here a few weeks ago, pointing out that it had got there first with Total Football. They called it The Whirl, but essentially the same thing.

[/quote]

 

I can''t remember where I first read about them (It might have been The Ball Is Round by David Goldblatt as it is just about the most complete history of football there is) but I find them quite fascinating. The whole story of Mathias Sindelar is interesting enough in itself. He played in the last game for Austria (before the country was annexed by Nazi Germany) against Germany and whilst there is some debate about just how hard some of his team mates tried he scored one and made one in a 2-0 win. Some reports suggest that he made provocative hand gestures at the visiting Nazi dignitaries after his goal but that part of the story may have been added to add to his myth. He played for his whole career at Austria Vienna who were the Jewish club in Vienna and refused to play for Germany. His death due to carbon monoxide poisoning was seen as suspicious by many (which merely adds to the myth) with some suggesting that local officials were bribed to record it as an accident. And best of all were his nicknames. The Paper Man and The Mozart of Football. If he had been born in England it would have been Sindy [:O]

 

 

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

But the realist in me knows sometimes purity needs to have a little hard-headed pragmatism mixed in. To that end I''m glad (no really!) that you gently chided me for rating the Italian team of 1982 above the Brazilian team. Because a comparison between those teams perfectly makes my point. [/quote]

 

You are of course correct. That Italy side was very good (and the Tardelli celebration is my favourite of all time [:D]) but, you know, they''re Italy. I was obsessed with that Brazil team as a child and cried my eyes out when they got knocked out of that World Cup. I can''t remember an awful lot about them other than they played in yellow like Norwich and an older lad from over the road had told me all about Zico. England limped out a few days later and I couldn''t care less. There is a good article [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/jan/21/on-second-thoughts-serginho]here[/url] about that Brazil team and their centre forward in particular. How about that French team from 1982 though. Now if Schumacher had been sent off in that semi final as he deserved to be then they may well have made it through to the final. Could they have beaten that final or was it a couple of years to early for them (they went on to win Euro 1984 of course)?

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Aggy"]The thing with Spain is that they''re just so boring![/quote]but they win.... what would you rather have... success and trophies... or entertainment and relegation?

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

 

Fascinating post, Shack. Firstly I grew up reading about the Austrian Wunderteam and mentioned it here a few weeks ago, pointing out that it had got there first with Total Football. They called it The Whirl, but essentially the same thing.

[/quote]

 

I can''t remember where I first read about them (It might have been The Ball Is Round by David Goldblatt as it is just about the most complete history of football there is) but I find them quite fascinating. The whole story of Mathias Sindelar is interesting enough in itself. He played in the last game for Austria (before the country was annexed by Nazi Germany) against Germany and whilst there is some debate about just how hard some of his team mates tried he scored one and made one in a 2-0 win. Some reports suggest that he made provocative hand gestures at the visiting Nazi dignitaries after his goal but that part of the story may have been added to add to his myth. He played for his whole career at Austria Vienna who were the Jewish club in Vienna and refused to play for Germany. His death due to carbon monoxide poisoning was seen as suspicious by many (which merely adds to the myth) with some suggesting that local officials were bribed to record it as an accident. And best of all were his nicknames. The Paper Man and The Mozart of Football. If he had been born in England it would have been Sindy [:O]

 

 

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

But the realist in me knows sometimes purity needs to have a little hard-headed pragmatism mixed in. To that end I''m glad (no really!) that you gently chided me for rating the Italian team of 1982 above the Brazilian team. Because a comparison between those teams perfectly makes my point. [/quote]

 

You are of course correct. That Italy side was very good (and the Tardelli celebration is my favourite of all time [:D]) but, you know, they''re Italy. I was obsessed with that Brazil team as a child and cried my eyes out when they got knocked out of that World Cup. I can''t remember an awful lot about them other than they played in yellow like Norwich and an older lad from over the road had told me all about Zico. England limped out a few days later and I couldn''t care less. There is a good article [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/jan/21/on-second-thoughts-serginho]here[/url] about that Brazil team and their centre forward in particular. How about that French team from 1982 though. Now if Schumacher had been sent off in that semi final as he deserved to be then they may well have made it through to the final. Could they have beaten that final or was it a couple of years to early for them (they went on to win Euro 1984 of course)?

[/quote]

 

Shack, there is indeed a great deal in Goldblatt''s book on "the ethereal and cerebral football of Sindelar and the Wunderteam". I like your estimate of what his nickname would be here and now. Having said that, there was a lightweight centre-forward back in the ''60s for Everton who, I suspect, was not unlike Sindelar in style. Alex Young. And he was called either "The Vison" or "The Golden Vision", because he was a vision of how football should be played. Even had a TV play/documentary written about him.

 

Thanks for the article on Serginho, which to an extent makes some of my points. Brazil didn''t have a goalscorer (or at least he didn''t perform) and for all their show-pony midfield brilliance they lacked in other areas as well.

 

As to that French team, I agree, up to a point. Fantastic midfield skill, but lacking up front. Again, no real goalscorer.

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,558]

A very good piece here about Santi Cazola who represents the depth of the Spanish squad.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2011/nov/09/santi-cazorla-england-spain

 

It is impossible to define a greatest ever team - this Spain team have won as much as the French team from 1998 to 2000 but they are really talked about as being ''the greatest team ever'' despite looking fairly untouchable for at least 2 - 3 years. Everyone has their favourite international team, for some it is the England team from Italia ''90 - personally I loved the Portugal side from Euro ''96 - these are far from being the greatest teams ever but some teams just have that spark about them.

 

I often wonder just how good a Yugoslavia team would be now if such a place was still around - Vidic, Dzeko, Pjanic, Krasnic, Subotic, Jovetic, Modric etc. Would be good on paper, just hard to get them all in one room without a punch up

[Buncey 1]

I''ve always found comparing teams pointless, not so much because of the difficulty in accurate comparisons but because I just get so carried away when thinking about good teams. I mean is this Spanish team better than Brazil 1970? Are they even the best Brazil? What about 58 or 82 or 2002?! Italy were good in 82 as well, but were they a better team than the miserly 2006 team and was that miserly Italian team as strong as that France 1998 team or those West German teams of the 70''s. Surely Germany should have lost to the magnificent Dutch! What about the 66/70 team of England, pioneering at the time and goodness knows the others I haven''t been able to see much of. (for the record my late father was adamant that the Hungarian team was the best he had seen, but he would have been an impressionable young kid back then!)I''ll take a breath... Phew. Strength in depth is one thing, but there are a host of top quality players who don''t even make the Spanish squad; Capdevilla, Marchena, Borja Valero, Soriano, Negredo, Joaquin, Capel, Pedro Leon, Granero, Bojan, Reyes, Arteta, David Fuster, Jesus Navas to name the ones that spring into my head. Worryingly (as an England fan) they have so many talented young players, and furthermore that these young players play integral parts for their respective clubs. The only negative critisism I have of the development in Spain is that there is, for my (and I would say many others) taste, too much emphasise on possession for possessions sake. Whilst they maybe the best (or one of the best) teams in the world I wonder if their tika-taka tempo-sapping style will live as long in the memory as the magnificent football of some of the great teams in the past.(Finally, I would suggest to any and everyone to take a look at book called Inverting The Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson, it is a magnificent book on the history of the development of football and tactics)

[Shyster 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]

There is a massive gulf between the two squads. It may be a little premature but I think you can almost make an argument for that Spanish squad to be the most talented of all time in terms of it''s pure depth. Maybe we should wait until after Brazil 2014 to make a judgement as that may well be a natural end to some of those players international careers but if they continue in their current vein they would have to be considered as one of the best of all time.

 

I''ll take a 2-0 defeat right now if anyone is offering [:D]

[/quote]

[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]

[Robert N. LiM 4,350]

If you don''t want to read Inverting the Pyramid, don''t worry. Shack rips it off in almost every post....

Great result, Shyster, don''t you think? Everything in the garden is rosy. We''ll probably win the Euros now and embark on a golden era of footballing success. I can''t wait....

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="AndyJR"]I predict we will lose 6 - 1, then we can all get back to the proper footy the following week.[/quote]

Hope you didn''t lay your money down.

[Shyster 0]

[quote user="Robert N. LiM"]If you don''t want to read Inverting the Pyramid, don''t worry. Shack rips it off in almost every post....

Great result, Shyster, don''t you think? Everything in the garden is rosy. We''ll probably win the Euros now and embark on a golden era of footballing success. I can''t wait....[/quote]

Most right-minded folk including myself realise that things aren''t rosy in the garden and beating the Spaniards in a friendly makes little difference, but I personally find Shack''s predictions mostly going t*ts up an endless source of amusement [img]http://services.pinkun.com/FORUMS/PINKUN/CS/emoticons/emotion-21.gif[/img]I also appreciate the sarcasm - that tickled my chortle bones too.