Andrew Surman.....best position?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

Wasn''t really much the wiser yesterday as he was played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2, will be interesting to see him within the ''diamond'' structure, however the following report from a couple of years ago makes for interesting reading,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/feb/26/southampton

   two things stand out for me, a) doesn''t have a chance to stand out when there''s no pace in front of him - one thing that could be levelled at our team at present? and b) from a lot of Claridge''s description, it might appear that Surman and Hoolahan may want to occupy similar areas of the field. Its going to be interesing to see how Lambert integrates Surman into the side. For those of us (myself included) who thought that it would be a simple ''straight swap'' for Lappin, may well need to re-think that as they don''t appear to be as alike as many might have thought? It would appear to be a decision between Surman''s vision or sacrificing a bit of midfield bite from Lappin.

[Morisons Prozac 0]

Lappin or Surman? It''s not a hard question is it?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

[quote user="Docs Big Nose that was at the Heart of the Defence"]Lappin or Surman? It''s not a hard question is it?[/quote]

Well thats sort of the issue, I''m not sure whether it IS one or the other?, Its interesting to find what sort of player exactly it is that we have here? (and from the attached Claridge report- some high praise "best passer of the ball in the championship), and in which position he would need to be deployed in order to make the most of his talents?

[John 0]

Just an idea for how you could contruct the play to best utilise the attributes of Surman with the current players we have :

Key -

• Black = Regular pass
• Blue = Through ball
• Red = Run, to meet the play

This is how i''d see the play spread if we are to use a 4-4-2, with Surman in the midfield. In this, perhaps he bring the best out of the pace and eccentricity in the likes of McNamee, McDonald and Smith.Downsides of course are that they are at the expense of Hoolahan and Martin, but if pace is on the agenda, then this how one would imagine the team would look (disregarding Daley, though if he is ready, perhaps a role is available for him on the right, with Smith sinking into the right back slot at the expense of Martin).Perhaps it''s a system that can prove useful in the final half hour in a game?

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

Left of a midfield 3, not physical enough to play in a 2 but not quick enough to play outwide.

[ucl-canary 0]

I''m fairly certain he will take up lappin''s position and by all accounts do a much better job.

[Davo 0]

[quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"]Left of a midfield 3, not physical enough to play in a 2 but not quick enough to play outwide.[/quote]

 

You mean not quick enough like Beckham? Someone who has played wide right virtually his whole career and yet is slower than my nan.

Davo

[thirdlion 0]

Steve Claridge predicted the Stockport would lose their League Two playoff semi final to Wycombe (when Lambert was in charge) a couple of years ago, based on one half of football he saw them play in the FA Cup, against Staines Town, the preceeding December. The man is an idiot and you''d do well to ignore him.

[Boyo 0]

I''m not a fan of Claridge so didn''t read to much into it but I think we could be seeing a 4-3-1-2 formation next season which could look like this...

Martin         Ward            Whitbread            Drury

              Smith               Fox               Surman

                                    Hoolahan

                     Martin                     Holt

I think this could work and from what I know of Surman this would suit him because he dosn''t like to be out wide but likes to be on the left.  I think this also brings out the best in Smith because it is similar to how he played last season as him and Martin can work down the right and also Fox can spread the play in the middle and also Hoolahan is in his favourite position.

I wouldn''t be suprised to see this next season but we do lack a bit of midfield ''muscle''.

[Muddy funster 0]

"sacrificing a bit of midfield bite without Lappin".............good one!

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

[quote user="Muddy funster"]"sacrificing a bit of midfield bite without Lappin".............good one![/quote]

My point really here is (without wishing to make Lappin out to be a midfield ''hatchet-man''), is that key to the success of the diamond formation were the often un-noticed roles that Smith and Lappin did on either side- providing the ''legs'' and winning back the ball when not in possession. If we''re assuming that Surman would come in on that left-hand side for Lappin, my point is that they aren''t a like for like match and this may either need to be compensated for else where or require or slight ''tweak'' of formation?

[City penguin 0]

 

I think your right. But i think that crofts will be more likely to play in the centre is a lot more physical and simpler than fox. Fox seems to be cover for Hoolahan if you ask me. More of a luxury player. Crofts was clearly Russels replacement.

 

I dont expect drury to be first choice. I know he is almost a club legend but Smith really is a top draw left back with more potential in the future with drury. Left back is our strongest positon IMO.

That team i think should at least manage a mid table finish.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

[quote user="Davo"]

 You mean not quick enough like Beckham? Someone who has played wide right virtually his whole career and yet is slower than my nan.

Davo

[/quote]I guess being the best crosser of a ball in world football didn''t make up for the lack of pace.

Surman isn''t a wide player, he likes to get on the ball in midfield and also break forward into the box.

[Boyo 0]

[quote user="City penguin"]

 

I think your right. But i think that crofts will be more likely to play in the centre is a lot more physical and simpler than fox. Fox seems to be cover for Hoolahan if you ask me. More of a luxury player. Crofts was clearly Russels replacement.

 

I dont expect drury to be first choice. I know he is almost a club legend but Smith really is a top draw left back with more potential in the future with drury. Left back is our strongest positon IMO.

That team i think should at least manage a mid table finish.

[/quote]

You say that but he scored 7 goals from midfield in a struggling Brighton side last season and by the sounds of the Dearhram game he likes to be energetic and get forward a bit and have a few shots.

I initially thought he was Russels replacement but from the sounds of the game on Saturday we could all be quite suprised.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

My point really here is (without wishing to make Lappin out to be a

midfield ''hatchet-man''), is that key to the success of the diamond

formation were the often un-noticed roles that Smith and Lappin did on

either side- providing the ''legs'' and winning back the ball when not in

possession. If we''re assuming that Surman would come in on that

left-hand side for Lappin, my point is that they aren''t a like for like

match and this may either need to be compensated for else where or

require or slight ''tweak'' of formation?

[/quote]

I agree the diamond and particularly Hoolahan were able to shine

because of the work of Smith, Russell & Lappin but I think you''re

doing Surman an injustice by saying he doesn''t do anything "off" the

ball, he is a little lightweight but so is Lappin but they both work

hard and provide a solid base off the ball. Surman just provides a

little extra quality.

Surely the points you have made mean he definately can''t play centrally in a 4-4-2 if he''s too lightweight.

[John 0]

[quote user="City penguin"]

 

I think your right. But i think that crofts will be more likely to play in the centre is a lot more physical and simpler than fox. Fox seems to be cover for Hoolahan if you ask me. More of a luxury player. Crofts was clearly Russels replacement.

 [/quote]

We''ve gone over it plenty of times, but i will say that Fox isn''t a replacement for Hoolahan.

Apathy would have me re-direct you to us going over this subject in this thread, rather than long windedly going over the premises of this argument again...

http://www.pinkun.com/cs_pinkun/cs/forums/2172606/ShowPost.aspx

[Matt Morriss 69]

[quote user="Docs Big Nose that was at the Heart of the Defence"]Lappin or Surman? It''s not a hard question is it?[/quote]

Give it a rest, Lappin was one of the main reasons we got promoted last season, himself, Russell, Korey and Wes, best midfield weve had in years and finally addressed the problem of Drury getting overrun by Wes and Hucks on the left, leaving the whole midfield stretched and left side of defence under undue pressure.

Well done Lapps, ignore the knockers!

[Jim Smith 2,610]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

Wasn''t really much the wiser yesterday as he was played as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2, will be interesting to see him within the ''diamond'' structure, however the following report from a couple of years ago makes for interesting reading,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/feb/26/southampton

   two things stand out for me, a) doesn''t have a chance to stand out when there''s no pace in front of him - one thing that could be levelled at our team at present? and b) from a lot of Claridge''s description, it might appear that Surman and Hoolahan may want to occupy similar areas of the field. Its going to be interesing to see how Lambert integrates Surman into the side. For those of us (myself included) who thought that it would be a simple ''straight swap'' for Lappin, may well need to re-think that as they don''t appear to be as alike as many might have thought? It would appear to be a decision between Surman''s vision or sacrificing a bit of midfield bite from Lappin.

[/quote]

 

Might have been an issue if Lappin had any bite in midfield to scrifice but since he mainly just runs around barely touching the ball the decision is quite easy in my mind!

[ucl-canary 0]

Don''t make me laugh.

Lappin tries hard and did a very average job in league 1.  He didn''t score a goal and got very few assists and was by no means one of the main reasons we got promoted IMO. He was poor last time we were in the championship and i can''t believe he will feature much this season.

[Canary02 IV 0]

For me the message with Lappin seems to be much the same as Nelson - Good season in L1, would be ok in the Championship if our only ambition was to stay up, but if we want to push on we need a better player for your position - enter Surman and Ward our two most impressive summer signings.

I like Lappin and think he''s underrated but is he good enough to drive us on to the next level? Lambert''s a nice guy but he has a realistic ruthless streak.

[John 0]

[quote user="ucl-canary"]got very few assists[/quote]Funny that, because he was top of the "assist league" for a couple of months in League One, round the December / January mark.Wasn''t his biggest fan last season personally, but it goes without question that he provided a vital element to our play that we would have otherwise been lacking in without him.

[Lambo 0]

Yet he featured more than any other player for us last season??? So now which is true?? That Lappin did an excellent job for us last season or that he magically hoodwinked Paul Lambert into picking him all those times.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,035]

Don''t get me wrong, I was never a Lappin fan in championship terms but Lambert is surely no fool and saw fit to make him an ever present last season, if he was that much of a weak link I''m sure he would have been replaced somewhere along the line?

Don''t write him off just yet......and as I''ve said ,I don''t see Surman as a like for like replacement for Lappin, if anything more alike Hoolahan?

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

[quote user="ucl-canary"]

Don''t make me laugh.

Lappin tries hard and did a very average job in league 1.  He didn''t score a goal and got very few assists and was by no means one of the main reasons we got promoted IMO. He was poor last time we were in the championship and i can''t believe he will feature much this season.

[/quote]

Player	Club	TOTAL
Jon-Paul McGovern	Swindon Town	16
Gary Roberts	Huddersfield	15
Wesley Hoolahan	Norwich City	13
Jason Puncheon	Southampton	13
Richard Lambert	Southampton	12
Elliott Bennett	Brighton	11
Chris Hackett	Millwall	11
Ryan Harley	Exeter City	11
Grant Holt	Norwich City	11
Anthony Pilkington	Huddersfield	10
Simon Lappin	Norwich City	10
Andrew Welsh	Yeovil Town	10
Lloyd Sam	Charlton	10
Deon Burton	Charlton	10

Far more than golden boy Smith who played the same role on the right, having said that as with Smith the most impressive aspect of his game last season was his defensive positioning and work rate as the flankers in the midfield 3, they allowed Hoolahan the freedom to damage sides.

[ucl-canary 0]

I think Lappin is one of those player who people rate highly, or think very little of.

I appreciate his hard work and tackling back etc, but his final delivery is not consistently good enough, he cannot shoot, he lacks the ability to go past a player and compared to Korey Smith who played a similar role on the other side of the pitch he was outclassed by a player in his first season. Surman fits into his position perfectly and is definitely not a replacement for Hoolahan. Why would we spend so much money replacing one of our best players in Hoolahan. Far more sense to replace/ give competition to a weaker link in Lappin.

[ucl-canary 0]

Ok prooved wrong on the assists front..

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

I don''t dispute Lappin has to either up his game significantly when he does get a chance because at times he was sloppy in possession or outmuscled and those weaknesses will be punished in a higher division, just like everybody else.I just don''t agree with the Lappin bashing when he was such a vital part of a successful side last season and I wouldn''t have any problem seeing him in the side if called upon this season.

[ucl-canary 0]

Fair point, don''t get me wrong everyone from that team last year including Lappin has earnt the chance to proove themselves at this level. I would be happy if Lappin prooved me wrong, jsut can''t see it.

[Legend Iwan 30]

[quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"][quote user="ucl-canary"]

Don''t make me laugh.

Lappin tries hard and did a very average job in league 1.  He didn''t score a goal and got very few assists and was by no means one of the main reasons we got promoted IMO. He was poor last time we were in the championship and i can''t believe he will feature much this season.

[/quote]

Player	Club	TOTAL
Jon-Paul McGovern	Swindon Town	16
Gary Roberts	Huddersfield	15
Wesley Hoolahan	Norwich City	13
Jason Puncheon	Southampton	13
Richard Lambert	Southampton	12
Elliott Bennett	Brighton	11
Chris Hackett	Millwall	11
Ryan Harley	Exeter City	11
Grant Holt	Norwich City	11
Anthony Pilkington	Huddersfield	10
Simon Lappin	Norwich City	10
Andrew Welsh	Yeovil Town	10
Lloyd Sam	Charlton	10
Deon Burton	Charlton	10

Far more than golden boy Smith who played the same role on the right, having said that as with Smith the most impressive aspect of his game last season was his defensive positioning and work rate as the flankers in the midfield 3, they allowed Hoolahan the freedom to damage sides.
[/quote]

Surely a few - if not most - of those will be from freekicks and corners?

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

[quote user="Legend Iwan"] 

Surely a few - if not most - of those will be from freekicks and corners?

[/quote]Point being?