Attendances - not the real story.

[chicken 0]

I would like to see a true story of teams attendances. By that I mean for home games the HOME fans only and for away games the same.I say that because when you look at the premiership how many of the fans that go to Wigan games are actually Wigan fans? Add to that the number of London teams in there.I think this would paint a fairer picture of where we stand in terms of attendance. Because of our geographical position we don''t often get huge numbers of away fans coming to Carrow Road - can you blame fans of the likes of Plymouth and Carlisle for not making the trek in droves?I think we have one of the best home supports in the country - it may not be in there with the top ten premiership teams but then people ought to work out the proportions a bit.Even if you said 24,500 fans were normally our own that is between 10-15% of the population of Norwich  according to wiki:

Population (2008 est.)
- City	132,000 (Ranked 152nd)
- Urban	259,100

To be getting better gates than a team like Leeds who according to Wiki:

Population (2008 est.)
- Total	770,800

It means a whole lot more. Add to that the number of teams that are closer to them for away support etc. Colchester are our nearest opponents and then it must be someone like MK Dons.So in short the fact that we top that pile in this division and most of the division above us and supposedly 6 in the premiership (wouldn''t surprise me if it was more if they looked only at home support) says a lot about our fans, support and where this club should be aiming for.Everyone else in the country sees us as a small team because of our geographical position and most English people''s lack of knowledge of their own country. We know better - we are a top notch bunch of supporters that deseve the best.

[dreamteam 0]

Support is drawn from Norfolk, North Suffolk, parts of Cambs and beyond.

Catchment area is approx 1million.

[The gut 0]

[quote user="dreamteam"]Support is drawn from Norfolk, North Suffolk, parts of Cambs and beyond. Catchment area is approx 1million.[/quote]

minus Yarmouth.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="dreamteam"]Support is drawn from Norfolk, North Suffolk, parts of Cambs and beyond.

Catchment area is approx 1million.[/quote]So? Leeds on hand catchment area of West Yorkshire alone is over 2million in terms of population. I think you are talking of an area getting on for half the size of Norfolk alone. Yes there is Bradford in that area as well but consider that you are talking 2million people in that area over 1million spread over a much larger area. It only goes to prove my point further really.And one of my points remains - home fan attendances. As others have mentioned before, they got more fans for the fixtures against Huddersfield which boosted up their average attendances - how many of those number were home and away fans?I think we would be even higher up that table of home attendances if it was based purely on home fans. 6 premiership teams seems a small figure to me when you look at the teams up there.

[Snoots 0]

Yes, but if you''re going to use the ratio of attendance/population to boost our standing you also have to factor in "other attractions"/what else is there to do i.e. let''s face it, there''s nothing much else to do in Norfolk on a cold autumn/winter''s afternoon, is there ? Might as well go to Carrow Road,

[Bill 1,788]

Blimey, I never thought I would be in agreement with Smudger

[ryan1992 0]

I couldnt agree more. Leeds alone has a population 3 times bigger than Norwich and a bigger population than Norfolk. I find our home support incredible aswell as our away support (1400 all the way to Oldham), i dont understand it when people say we have a poor support

[The gut 0]

[quote user="ryan1992"]I couldnt agree more. Leeds alone has a population 3 times bigger than Norwich and a bigger population than Norfolk. I find our home support incredible aswell as our away support (1400 all the way to Oldham), i dont understand it when people say we have a poor support[/quote]

Not with all the rich farmers!

[The Young One 0]

I jus wonder where/why all these new fans have come from.I used to go to Loads of games home & away before our Championship winning season and we used to get gates of 12-15k now 25k and i,m sure we could have sold 30k for the Leeds game, boy does Doncaster have a lot to answer for why thehell didn''t they build a 2nd tier on the jarrold stand or not build a corner infill when they built the hotelBecause of that my family can''t go and get seats, I will (saeson ticket) but I could have brought 4 more to most home gamesbut can''t that often sit together so they don''t come

[Bill 1,788]

"1400 all the way to Oldham"

You presume that all of those have travelled from Norfolk. You can''t have gone to many away games.

[Snoots 0]

[quote user="ryan1992"]I couldnt agree more. Leeds alone has a population 3 times bigger than Norwich and a bigger population than Norfolk. I find our home support incredible aswell as our away support (1400 all the way to Oldham), i dont understand it when people say we have a poor support[/quote]

 

Who says we have a poor support ?

[McNamees attitude 0]

[quote user="City1st"]"1400 all the way to Oldham"

You presume that all of those have travelled from Norfolk. You can''t have gone to many away games.[/quote]

Since we are slagging each other off, learn to use the quote button!

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="MCWILL"][quote user="City1st"]"1400 all the way to Oldham" You presume that all of those have travelled from Norfolk. You can''t have gone to many away games.[/quote] Since we are slagging each other off, learn to use the quote button![/quote]

Oh, sweet irony...

[Bill 1,788]

Words such as hung and petard spring to mind.

I might suggest to junior that we are not slagging each other off. I was merely commenting on your apparent lack of knowledge regarding where Norwich fans have travelled from at away games. Therefore it is not slagging off to query whether you go to many away games.

As to the quotes button your post amply proves why I don''t use it. Also it is the idiots switch as it merely allows simple folk fron having to quote specifically what they are replying to.

That way you get endless quotes within quotes within quotes which can be tedious to scroll through.

[Woman in the Stands (WITS) 0]

As usual the high number of exiled fans has been ignored in calculating these figures

[morty 0]

Jesus, give me strength.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,423]

[quote user="MCWILL"][quote user="City1st"]"1400 all the way to Oldham"

You presume that all of those have travelled from Norfolk. You can''t have gone to many away games.[/quote]

Since we are slagging each other off, learn to use the quote button![/quote]Please start using a browser that doesn''t turn the quote function into gibberish.Firefox is far from perfect, but at least it doesn''t turn the pinkun message board into an eye-watering mess of HTML.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Yet again more outstanding ATT figures from Carrow Rd which proves beyond doubt that we need to increaee the grounds capacity!!

I think had the ground been big enough we''d of had 2 or 3 crowds over 30,000 this season what is in real terms the 3rd Division and I''m sure our average could of been up to about 28,000!

Can''t wait for City stand upper tier with corner infills and the Barclay/Jarrold stand infill to be done!

[Bill 1,788]

" we''d of had" .......... we''d have had

Either way that is doubtful. Part of the high sales is perceived scarcity. If the capacity of Carrow Road was 35,000 I doubt we would have sold 25.000 tickets at this stage.

The problem with building more capacity is one solely of funding. That funding would by nature have to be spread over a long time with no certainty of the state of football or what level attendances will be at some futre date.

u

Factor in the possible loss of capacity whilst the extra stand(s) is/are being built. Also the loss of income.

I suspect that tickets prices will simply creep upwards to squeeze off demand and allow a greater income. It''s all very well championing the 25,000 attendances but how much extra revenue have theose attendances generated on the gate alone.

Currently the families and kids are being heavily susidised by the casual fan. This will need to be adjusted at some point. Safety requires so many stewards per thousand fans. 2000 kids paying £2 a ticket require far more stewards than 200 fans paying £20 a ticket. Likewise with the processing of those tickets. It is also more likely that the £20 casual fan will be spending far higher in the ground.

So please don''t presume it is just a case of putting in more seats. You will also have to face the wrath of numerous simple folk who will always be strongly against any form of expenditure on the ground''s infrastructure

[Bill 1,788]

" we''d of had" .......... we''d have had

Either way that is doubtful. Part of the high sales is perceived scarcity. If the capacity of Carrow Road was 35,000 I doubt we would have sold 25.000 tickets at this stage.

The problem with building more capacity is one solely of funding. That funding would by nature have to be spread over a long time with no certainty of the state of football or what level attendances will be at some futre date.

u

Factor in the possible loss of capacity whilst the extra stand(s) is/are being built. Also the loss of income.

I suspect that tickets prices will simply creep upwards to squeeze off demand and allow a greater income. It''s all very well championing the 25,000 attendances but how much extra revenue have theose attendances generated on the gate alone.

Currently the families and kids are being heavily susidised by the casual fan. This will need to be adjusted at some point. Safety requires so many stewards per thousand fans. 2000 kids paying £2 a ticket require far more stewards than 200 fans paying £20 a ticket. Likewise with the processing of those tickets. It is also more likely that the £20 casual fan will be spending far higher in the ground.

So please don''t presume it is just a case of putting in more seats. You will also have to face the wrath of numerous simple folk who will always be strongly against any form of expenditure on the ground''s infrastructure

[chicken 0]

[quote user="City1st"]Words such as hung and petard spring to mind.

I might suggest to junior that we are not slagging each other off. I was merely commenting on your apparent lack of knowledge regarding where Norwich fans have travelled from at away games. Therefore it is not slagging off to query whether you go to many away games.

As to the quotes button your post amply proves why I don''t use it. Also it is the idiots switch as it merely allows simple folk fron having to quote specifically what they are replying to.

That way you get endless quotes within quotes within quotes which can be tedious to scroll through.[/quote]Patronising response.However - I am pretty sure it is easy enough to find out how many travelled on the coaches alone. However the rest would be purely assumption without propper research - to that extent you are infact arguing against someones opinion based on assumption with another opinion also based on assumption.However your point is valid, especially when it comes to games in London where we have the Capitol Canaries who go to the games there in force.I also appreciate the points other people make. However I simply cannot accept that people go to Carrow Road because there is nothing else to do. The catchment area mentioned extends quite some distance. The further into Suffolk you get the closer to London you get to the point where it is just as quick if not quicker to get to London either by train or by car than it is to Norwich in which case you have a lot more available.I think many of the fans that travel 40 odd miles in the poor weather conditions this year would be upset at the accusation they do it through boredom. And actually there are plenty of things in our area to do other than watch football - even in the winter.All I was questioning was the accuracy of the figures they give - especially where some of the teams figures are significantly boosted by away fans. Oldham is actually a good example, Colchester would be another one although a difficult example due to the rumoured amount of  Norwich fans in the home areas at that game.[quote user="City1st"]Blimey, I never thought I would be in agreement with Smudger[/quote]Its nice to know my signature doesn''t go unseen.

[Bill 1,788]

" to that extent you are infact arguing against someones opinion based on assumption with another opinion also based on assumption"

Nope.

His was assumption. The belief that all 14400 had travelled fron Norfolk.

Mine was not assumption. I talked to fans before the game and after the game who had travelled from other parts of the country. As well as Capital Canaries there are those posting on here who attended the game but do not currently live in Norfolk or travel from there on the day. I can name up to a dozen City fans who were at the game but live in the area.

If anyone is assuming and forming an opinion on that basis it is your good self chicken - so don''t try and come the ''clever dicky'' with me my young fowl friend.

[Barclay hero 0]

[quote user="chicken"][quote user="dreamteam"]Support is drawn from Norfolk, North Suffolk, parts of Cambs and beyond. Catchment area is approx 1million.[/quote]

So? Leeds on hand catchment area of West Yorkshire alone is over 2million in terms of population. I think you are talking of an area getting on for half the size of Norfolk alone. Yes there is Bradford in that area as well but consider that you are talking 2million people in that area over 1million spread over a much larger area. It only goes to prove my point further really.

And one of my points remains - home fan attendances. As others have mentioned before, they got more fans for the fixtures against Huddersfield which boosted up their average attendances - how many of those number were home and away fans?

I think we would be even higher up that table of home attendances if it was based purely on home fans. 6 premiership teams seems a small figure to me when you look at the teams up there.
[/quote]

Possibly

But another point to consider.  Within a 40 mile radius of Leeds there is also

Huddersfield, Oldham, Bury, Rochdale, Bradford, York, Sheffield U, Sheffield W, Rotherham, Barnsley, Man U, Man C, Stockport, Doncaster Rovers and possibly Hull. 

We''ve got Ipswich.....

Yes we have a smaller catchment, yes we have a smaller ground and yes we fill it but we should do

[grantroederdisaster 0]

Thanks for the English lesson and for the correcting of everyones wrongs on this thread seemingly, but I doubt very much I need telling from someone like yourself that obviously thinks he/shes superior!!

I stand by everything I said in my post!

I do think we''d of sold 30,000 for the Millwall game, the never to be forgotton ColU opener, the recent Southampton game and probably more than that for the forthcoming already sold out Leeds game. Therefore my 28,000 average figure would not be far out but we''ll never know!!

Leeds who are supposedly a much bigger club than us only have an average ATT that is near us because of couple of games where because of their large capacity they have been able to accomodate a rare 30,000+ attendance!

Yes high season ticket sales are in part due to supporters guaranteeing their seat when crowds are close to capacity but also their been instances where casual fans haven''t bothered trying to get tickets cause they thought they''d have no chance of getting a ticket when indeed their was tickets, so it works both ways!

This was certainly the case for the Poulton Rovers away game where I know we had 500 tickets (which is under half what we normally take to away games) yet didn''t sell them all!

One (thats good English isn''t it?) must remember that we are the 3rd Division so it is astonishing that we are still getting crowds that would be huge for the Championship. I''m certain that clubs who would be perceived by most outside of Norfolk as bigger clubs than Norwich wouldn''t get 20,000 in the 3rd Division!

Its only the fact that the National media have for eternity largely turned a blind eye to Norwich City FC and outside of East Anglia we''ve always had a small club stereotype that we haven''t had much National praise for our huge support levels. I remember all the publicity and plaudits Man City had during their season in the 3rd Division because the were getting crowds in the main lower than what we''re getting now!

I was told in the one Premiership season that we could of had sold 35,000 tickets for most games that season, so I don''t think for one minute we''d struggle to to fill a 35,000 capacity stadium if we ever get back into the top League. It annoys me when people get sucked into all the old Bulls*it (thats not in the English dictionary, but it does take you straight to the point very well!) small club stereotype that has always lingered around our club. For christ sake I remember when Sunderland used to get 12/13,000 and look at the crowds they get now!

Oh and we had 50,000 applications for our UEFA Cup 3rd round clash against Inter Milan in 1993!

As for people saying that Norwich isn''t a big enough place to support 30,000 plus crowds!

Like all Norwich fans come from within the City boundaries!

I know Norwich fans from all over Suffolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire, London and Lincolnshire. Many more come to home fans from ever further afield. In reality our fanbase is spread over a large area with a more than reasonable population!

I do very much understand that all talk of stadium redevelopment is all relative because unless we get bought by mega rich owners and/or we get back into the Premiership, increasing Carrow Roads capacity will probably not happen, but that doesn''t mean I can''t dream because I''m knowledageable enough about most matters concerning Norwich City FC to know that we do need extra capacity and that it would help us fully establish the club in the top flight which it is capable of doing!

I''m glad that the Chief Executive David Mcnally thinks the same!

[Barclay hero 0]

[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]Thanks for the English lesson and for the correcting of everyones wrongs on this thread seemingly, but I doubt very much I need telling from someone like yourself that obviously thinks he/shes superior!! I stand by everything I said in my post! I do think we''d of sold 30,000 for the Millwall game, the never to be forgotton ColU opener, the recent Southampton game and probably more than that for the forthcoming already sold out Leeds game. Therefore my 28,000 average figure would not be far out but we''ll never know!! Leeds who are supposedly a much bigger club than us only have an average ATT that is near us because of couple of games where because of their large capacity they have been able to accomodate a rare 30,000+ attendance! Yes high season ticket sales are in part due to supporters guaranteeing their seat when crowds are close to capacity but also their been instances where casual fans haven''t bothered trying to get tickets cause they thought they''d have no chance of getting a ticket when indeed their was tickets, so it works both ways! This was certainly the case for the Poulton Rovers away game where I know we had 500 tickets (which is under half what we normally take to away games) yet didn''t sell them all! One (thats good English isn''t it?) must remember that we are the 3rd Division so it is astonishing that we are still getting crowds that would be huge for the Championship. I''m certain that clubs who would be perceived by most outside of Norfolk as bigger clubs than Norwich wouldn''t get 20,000 in the 3rd Division! Its only the fact that the National media have for eternity largely turned a blind eye to Norwich City FC and outside of East Anglia we''ve always had a small club stereotype that we haven''t had much National praise for our huge support levels. I remember all the publicity and plaudits Man City had during their season in the 3rd Division because the were getting crowds in the main lower than what we''re getting now! I was told in the one Premiership season that we could of had sold 35,000 tickets for most games that season, so I don''t think for one minute we''d struggle to to fill a 35,000 capacity stadium if we ever get back into the top League. It annoys me when people get sucked into all the old Bulls*it (thats not in the English dictionary, but it does take you straight to the point very well!) small club stereotype that has always lingered around our club. For christ sake I remember when Sunderland used to get 12/13,000 and look at the crowds they get now! Oh and we had 50,000 applications for our UEFA Cup 3rd round clash against Inter Milan in 1993! As for people saying that Norwich isn''t a big enough place to support 30,000 plus crowds! Like all Norwich fans come from within the City boundaries! I know Norwich fans from all over Suffolk, Essex, Cambridgeshire, London and Lincolnshire. Many more come to home fans from ever further afield. In reality our fanbase is spread over a large area with a more than reasonable population! I do very much understand that all talk of stadium redevelopment is all relative because unless we get bought by mega rich owners and/or we get back into the Premiership, increasing Carrow Roads capacity will probably not happen, but that doesn''t mean I can''t dream because I''m knowledageable enough about most matters concerning Norwich City FC to know that we do need extra capacity and that it would help us fully establish the club in the top flight which it is capable of doing! I''m glad that the Chief Executive David Mcnally thinks the same![/quote]

Top post.......

[Bill 1,788]

" Oh and we had 50,000 applications for our UEFA Cup 3rd round clash against Inter Milan in 1993! "

Apart from the semi literate drivel in the rest of the post that stupid claim is WRONG. They were flogging them off for as many as you wanted.

As to whether I, or anyone else, is superior to you I would suggest your incomprehensible ramblings confirms that almost anyone with an IQ of two figures is superior to you.

Perhaps one of those folk could explain in English what you are ranting on about.

ps it''s we''d have not we''d of... as in

I have sold my bike, not

I of sold my bike

[chicken 0]

[quote user="City1st"]" Oh and we had 50,000 applications for our UEFA Cup 3rd round clash against Inter Milan in 1993! "

Apart from the semi literate drivel in the rest of the post that stupid claim is WRONG. They were flogging them off for as many as you wanted.

As to whether I, or anyone else, is superior to you I would suggest your incomprehensible ramblings confirms that almost anyone with an IQ of two figures is superior to you.

Perhaps one of those folk could explain in English what you are ranting on about.

ps it''s we''d have not we''d of... as in

I have sold my bike, not

I of sold my bike[/quote]Has IQ got anything to do with this debate? - No. Should I also point out that IQ is not just baced on one''s grammer, spelling or punctuation? I will also point out that you can train yourself to gain better results at IQ tests. In addition IQ tests do not take in to account things such as socialisation skills, the ability to adapt to your surrounds and good old fashioned common sense. People on the autistic spectrum, for example, have been known to score highly on IQ tests although struggle to cope with everyday life.If you have to be patronising to try and push your opinion over people go for it, unfortunately on a web forum like this it doesn''t tend to work.By the way ''ps'' should be P.S. as it is an abreviation.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Barclay hero"]

[quote user="chicken"][quote user="dreamteam"]Support is drawn from Norfolk, North Suffolk, parts of Cambs and beyond. Catchment area is approx 1million.[/quote]So? Leeds on hand catchment area of West Yorkshire alone is over 2million in terms of population. I think you are talking of an area getting on for half the size of Norfolk alone. Yes there is Bradford in that area as well but consider that you are talking 2million people in that area over 1million spread over a much larger area. It only goes to prove my point further really.And one of my points remains - home fan attendances. As others have mentioned before, they got more fans for the fixtures against Huddersfield which boosted up their average attendances - how many of those number were home and away fans?I think we would be even higher up that table of home attendances if it was based purely on home fans. 6 premiership teams seems a small figure to me when you look at the teams up there.[/quote]

Possibly

But another point to consider.  Within a 40 mile radius of Leeds there is also Huddersfield, Oldham, Bury, Rochdale, Bradford, York, Sheffield U, Sheffield W, Rotherham, Barnsley, Man U, Man C, Stockport, Doncaster Rovers and possibly Hull. 

We''ve got Ipswich.....

Yes we have a smaller catchment, yes we have a smaller ground and yes we fill it but we should do

[/quote]I started off by comparing the size of Leeds to Norwich - people didn''t like that idea, I use the county boundaries and again its not liked.The point of the matter is that Leeds in population is a bigger City than Norwich, even Norfolk doesn''t hold many more in population than the City of Leeds itself does. Now I am not going to assume that the entire population of Leeds or Norwich are loyal to their local club or even like football - I was merely comparing the fact that compared to Leeds who have a hell of a lot more people in close proximity to their club struggle to get as many fans as Norwich, who most have pointed out on here, have people who travel a long way to get here.I was merely pointing out how fantastic this is and how the statistics given out in total attendances don''t really reflect how great that is, they don''t do Norwich fans justice even though they do prove they are great.Why that comment has to have some of our own fans arguing with it I don''t know. Perhaps it would have recieved a warmer welcome if I claimed it was a conspiracy theory and Doomcaster had infact handed out cardboard cut out friends to lonely season ticket holders and counted them as ''fans''.

[dreamteam 0]

Population of Norfolk 850,800

Poulation of Leeds 715,000

Poulation of W. Yorks 2,200,000

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="City1st"]" Oh and we had 50,000 applications for our UEFA Cup 3rd round clash against Inter Milan in 1993! " Apart from the semi literate drivel in the rest of the post that stupid claim is WRONG. They were flogging them off for as many as you wanted. As to whether I, or anyone else, is superior to you I would suggest your incomprehensible ramblings confirms that almost anyone with an IQ of two figures is superior to you. Perhaps one of those folk could explain in English what you are ranting on about. ps it''s we''d have not we''d of... as in I have sold my bike, not I of sold my bike[/quote]

 

My figures are what associates working within the box office and other areas at the club have told me and that person is high up at the club!

 

So yes we did have 50,000 applications for the Inter Milan home game although as you rightly say the club were selling them to anyone which led to regular fans who were late in going for tickets missing out!

 

You are not making yourself popular with with your cynical snipes at other posters and although I''ll admit that computer literacy is not one of my strengths everything I''ve said on this thread is probably closer to fact than your bull!