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Hardhouse44

KTFer's living in the past or their deluded future but never the now.

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The KTFer''s have two standard answers to any criticism levied at the manager, they are he did ok in the past (Promotion season) or wait till the end of the season before we do anything about it. That was ok last year when we had another season of parachute payments left but this is NOW last chance saloon stuff. Delia herself has basically said that if your think we haven''t spent much this season then next years going to be even worse if we don''t get up. Other teams yet again this week show their ambition by changing an unsuccessful formula (Robson WBA) yet we still continue blindly down an avenue of abject performances and failure. Waiting till the end of the season to dispatch Worthington is 1 delaying the inevitable and 2 condemning the club and fans to years of football in the lower echelons watching substandard players who are the best we can afford. Negativity come in many forms I say those who wish us to stick with what we have are in danger of being responsible for years of dross similar or due to a lack of funds worse than that which we have been subjected to over the last 2 seasons. Now that is a negative thought. It isn’t working we are not improving and we look more a club in crisis than ever ,player look dejected and fans are restless. Nothing about our club points to us have any real success this year.

If we act now we have lots of time to rebuild and to attack this league in the manner that befits a club of our status . Players won’t sign for him the one we have won’t play for him and the fans won’t sing for him. With 4 minutes to go on Saturday the stands were half empty. How long before we start games like that. (Ask the Leeds Fans) Oh wait I forgot we played well at Leeds and after all they are one of the best teams in the league aren’t they least that’s what the KTFer’s were saying when we lost wasn’t it. Always an excuses never an answer. The past is gone the future is bleak and the now is horrible. Change now, not when it’s to late.

WORTHINGTON OUT

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How many more times do I have to say it?

Sacking the manager is like taking an aspirin for a brain tumour.  It provides temporary and incomplete relief while the underlying problem just gets worse.

We''ve been lied to in a manner that would make Mr Chase cringe with shame.  Prudence with Ambition?  There''s certainly no ambition and not a lot of prudence either.  If we''re so hard up, how can we afford to spend £1.3 million on a conference suite?

Come out of your hiding place you spineless cowards! 

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1.  There is no such thing as a KTF.  There are people who hold placqards and have silly marches, and who at the last count numbered about 60, and there''s the rest of us that sit on our hands and suffer in silence when we''re bad, and cheer when we''re good.  The majority of fans tend not to assume that they know best and give the benefit of the doubt to the board and manager, which from the opinion of posters on here I understand is a position of incredible arrogance.

2. You should address this to Neil Doncaster and the board if you want anything to happen about it.  Even then you''d get a one sentence reply thanking you for your interest, OTBC, which is more than he needs to do. This is not Barcelona, we can''t just elect a new board or manager.

3. A draw at Southend, a loss to Crystal Palace.  11 points from 8 matches.  Fewer than most would have liked admittedly.  But we''re in a league where anyone can beat anyone else on their day, and more than a few matches are going to go against the best in the league.  We need to get a run going, and starting up last seasons'' "fan pressure" won''t help anyone.

4. As usual, you fall into your trick of painting things far worse than they are. 

[quote]Players won’t sign for him the one we have won’t play for him and the fans won’t sing for him[/quote]

Players won''t sign.  Ashton signed, Earnshaw signed, Croft signed.  I''m bored of this argument but it keeps coming up.  If you say this kind of thing enough times it becomes the truth I guess...  Yes we only signed one player over the summer, but it wasn''t for the want of trying, an inflationary transfer market caused by other teams panic buying because an arbitrary transfer window doesn''t help. 

The players were playing for him at Southend, if anything they were trying too hard to win.  They were also trying against Palace, they were kept out of the game by a well-organised unit who had sussed out our tactics, we do need to be more flexible.

I suggest to you that the changes you wish to implement are out of your reach, you can''t afford a place on the board, and if you could, the current board members are unlikely to make room for you.  The only avenue left for you is direct action, and that the majority of fans don''t have the stomach for it after last seasons'' failed coup.

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I understand what you are saying HH44.  The problem as stated on other posts is that if he is replaced, any new manager still only has a small squad with little prospects of bringing much needed quality.

I think our summer transfer activity was a failure, there are reasons to defend the club over it but it was still a failure.  Players were overpriced but then they were overpriced for everyone, not just us.  Players not interested, thats fine and there is little you can do about that.  What you can do though is make sure you identify more than one target.

I think the biggest problem encountered this summer is the fact that we do have a fairly strong first 11.  Players will reject a move here for the same reason Leon wanted out.  What half-decent left winger is really going to come to City knowing that there only chance at playing is an injury to Hux?  Would you want such an unambitious player at the club?

 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

1.  There is no such thing as a KTF.  There are people who hold placqards and have silly marches, and who at the last count numbered about 60, and there''s the rest of us that sit on our hands and suffer in silence when we''re bad, and cheer when we''re good.  The majority of fans tend not to assume that they know best and give the benefit of the doubt to the board and manager, which from the opinion of posters on here I understand is a position of incredible arrogance.

2. You should address this to Neil Doncaster and the board if you want anything to happen about it.  Even then you''d get a one sentence reply thanking you for your interest, OTBC, which is more than he needs to do. This is not Barcelona, we can''t just elect a new board or manager.

3. A draw at Southend, a loss to Crystal Palace.  11 points from 8 matches.  Fewer than most would have liked admittedly.  But we''re in a league where anyone can beat anyone else on their day, and more than a few matches are going to go against the best in the league.  We need to get a run going, and starting up last seasons'' "fan pressure" won''t help anyone.

4. As usual, you fall into your trick of painting things far worse than they are. 

[quote]Players won’t sign for him the one we have won’t play for him and the fans won’t sing for him[/quote]

Players won''t sign.  Ashton signed, Earnshaw signed, Croft signed.  I''m bored of this argument but it keeps coming up.  If you say this kind of thing enough times it becomes the truth I guess...  Yes we only signed one player over the summer, but it wasn''t for the want of trying, an inflationary transfer market caused by other teams panic buying because an arbitrary transfer window doesn''t help. 

The players were playing for him at Southend, if anything they were trying too hard to win.  They were also trying against Palace, they were kept out of the game by a well-organised unit who had sussed out our tactics, we do need to be more flexible.

I suggest to you that the changes you wish to implement are out of your reach, you can''t afford a place on the board, and if you could, the current board members are unlikely to make room for you.  The only avenue left for you is direct action, and that the majority of fans don''t have the stomach for it after last seasons'' failed coup.

[/quote]So your answer is pay your money and put up with it.

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I don''t claim to have an answer HH, I just go to watch football. 

I know what I would like to happen, I''d like some answers as to why we haven''t spent money on players when we have had money coming in, I suspect it''s to do with anyone decent wanting to play regularly, instead of bench-warming, something which internationals seem happy to do at chelsea, oddly.  I''d also like an elected fan on the board, but I can''t see it happening.  The club already have a committee of 20 fans that they refer to when they want fans'' opinions, so the club "does listen", and probably listens more so than most.

I don''t expect us to get promoted this season under any manager, and I guess that''s where the difference between you and me is.  I''d be happy for us to be competitive in this league, and obviously if we could get back up then great, but I''d be just as happy for young players to grow into the first team squad in the championship, if not happier, than I would be if we were to get promoted and buy internationals who under-perform for large stacks of cash.

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[quote]If we''re so hard up, how can we afford to spend £1.3 million on a conference suite?[/quote]

If that conference suite is hired out to businesses to entertain their clients, then it will soon return far greater than 1.3 million.

Is there anything wrong in trying to spend money to make money ?

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

I don''t claim to have an answer HH, I just go to watch football. 

.

I don''t expect us to get promoted this season under any manager, and I guess that''s where the difference between you and me is.  I''d be happy for us to be competitive in this league, [/quote]

Thats EXACTLY the problem. You are happy for one of the biggest clubs in the division to be just mediocre.

You are willing to put up with 6 wins in 46 away matches, thats not even competitive.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]If we''re so hard up, how can we afford to spend £1.3 million on a conference suite?[/quote]

If that conference suite is hired out to businesses to entertain their clients, then it will soon return far greater than 1.3 million.

Is there anything wrong in trying to spend money to make money ?

[/quote]

Where''s your evidence blah?  There will never be enough custom from local businesses alone. And let''s face it, Norwich has an image problem which is largely undeserved but isn''t going to change overnight. What image does "Norwich" conjure up? Alan Partridge and the inebriated Queen of Cookery''s "Let''s be ''avin you" karaoke night.  Not an image that chimes harmoniously with corporate success.  The club will have to work very hard to bring people in, at the risk of straying even further from footballing matters than it has already.

It will have to return far greater than £1.3 million in order to cover the loan + interest and the cost of employing staff to drum up business and provide hospitality.  That''s before it even begins to bring in any significant income for the club, which after all is the only justification for going ahead with it in the first place. 

What''s done can''t be undone, so on that basis I hope it succeeds.  But for me it reeks of the trendy darlingdarling empty headed schemes to link up with European clubs that were the bane of Norwich City in the late 1990s. 

All fur coat and no knickers all over again.

 

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[quote]Thats EXACTLY the problem. You are happy for one of the biggest clubs in the division to be just mediocre.[/quote]

I would be happier if we were more competitive, but I accept that it can''t happen every season.  I do not accept that we have a divine right to win this league, neither am i under the delusion that the club are "bigger" than Wolves, Birmingham, Coventry, Leeds, or 5 other clubs.

[quote]You are willing to put up with 6 wins in 46 away matches, thats not even competitive.[/quote]

When 10 away wins can win you the league, 6 away wins and 10 draws could put us in competition for a play-off place.

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[quote]Where''s your evidence blah?  There will never be enough custom from local businesses alone. And let''s face it, Norwich has an image problem which is largely undeserved but isn''t going to change overnight. What image does "Norwich" conjure up? Alan Partridge and the inebriated Queen of Cookery''s "Let''s be ''avin you" karaoke night. [/quote]

No list of fees and charges for the corporate suite from me, anti-Norwich hyperbole from you.  I make that 0-0.  You sound like you might be suffering from a "little Norwich" mentality...

Norwich has a strong insurance / financial sector.  These companies tend to do a lot of training and entertaining, and not all of it in-house. Ok, Norwich Union let go of 850 staff, but Central Trust will probably offer half of those people jobs within a month. I am sure there is a market for this facility in a growing city.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]Thats EXACTLY the problem. You are happy for one of the biggest clubs in the division to be just mediocre.[/quote]

I would be happier if we were more competitive, but I accept that it can''t happen every season.  I do not accept that we have a divine right to win this league, neither am i under the delusion that the club are "bigger" than Wolves, Birmingham, Coventry, Leeds, or 5 other clubs.

[quote]You are willing to put up with 6 wins in 46 away matches, thats not even competitive.[/quote]

When 10 away wins can win you the league, 6 away wins and 10 draws could put us in competition for a play-off place.

[/quote]I''m no mathematician but 6 wins in 46 away games doesn''t equate to one season as your comparisons try to indicate, if we could win 10 away games in one season we would indeed be laughing, that much I agree. 46 away games [given the prem season] equates to 2 seasons and a fraction, meaning our average is actually less than 3 away wins per season which in reality is very poor.

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For once I completely agree with you blahblahblah.  There is nothing wrong with trying to spend money to make money.  Is that not what buying players capable of getting us promoted equates to?  In the eyes of the Board of our club, evidently not.

 

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]If we''re so hard up, how can we afford to spend £1.3 million on a conference suite?[/quote]

If that conference suite is hired out to businesses to entertain their clients, then it will soon return far greater than 1.3 million.

Is there anything wrong in trying to spend money to make money ?

[/quote]

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]Thats EXACTLY the problem. You are happy for one of the biggest clubs in the division to be just mediocre.[/quote]

I would be happier if we were more competitive, but I accept that it can''t happen every season.  I do not accept that we have a divine right to win this league, neither am i under the delusion that the club are "bigger" than Wolves, Birmingham, Coventry, Leeds, or 5 other clubs.

[quote]You are willing to put up with 6 wins in 46 away matches, thats not even competitive.[/quote]

When 10 away wins can win you the league, 6 away wins and 10 draws could put us in competition for a play-off place.

[/quote]

I guess you have to get to 1 before you can win 6.

Also I guess you dont check your facts very well.

NO TEAM has made the champ playoffs in the last 4 years with just 6 away wins.

Where did you get that from? KTF facts 101.

Its now just 6 wins in 48 games over the last 2+ seasons.

We are just not competitive despite having bigger crowds and a bigger budget than just about every club in the division.

Congratulations on being satisfied with naming clubs who you THINK are better than us, looks like you think being a mid table mediocre club is OK.

Worthy Out.

 

 

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     One thing which is often overlooked is that the one player we actually managed to sign turned down more money from other Championship clubs to come here. In other words had L.Croft had the same mentality as the vast majority of footballers we would actually have signed NOBODY. This is a club which has recieved 12 million parachute payments since relegation, is 8 million in profit in the transfer market over the same period,has had record s.ticket/merchandise/catering sales (significantly higher than the clubs we are competing against who some people seem to think we cant compete with...),has had a 1.5 million loan written off,recieved 1.1 million for the Hotel land and is still recieving money from the TaylerWoodrow development. Anyone who can look at this situation and still justify nearly loosing out on a 21-year old reserve player to our rivals and the current embarrassingly thin squad needs to have a good look at themselves. Prudence with ambition? Its not even funny any more.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]Where''s your evidence blah?  There will never be enough custom from local businesses alone. And let''s face it, Norwich has an image problem which is largely undeserved but isn''t going to change overnight. What image does "Norwich" conjure up? Alan Partridge and the inebriated Queen of Cookery''s "Let''s be ''avin you" karaoke night. [/quote]

No list of fees and charges for the corporate suite from me, anti-Norwich hyperbole from you.  I make that 0-0.  You sound like you might be suffering from a "little Norwich" mentality...

Norwich has a strong insurance / financial sector.  These companies tend to do a lot of training and entertaining, and not all of it in-house. Ok, Norwich Union let go of 850 staff, but Central Trust will probably offer half of those people jobs within a month. I am sure there is a market for this facility in a growing city.

[/quote]

Please note blah, I said that the image problem was largely undeserved.  It''s a fact of life however, and it was reinforced by Delia''s Ratners moment.  I''m Norwich born and proud to be so, but I''m not under any illusions about how other people see us. 

Norwich is, or used to be, a small, attractive city with a dynamic university, a large insurance company and a football team that consistently punched above its weight.  The university is going from strength to strength.  The insurance company''s commitment to the city is in serious doubt.  The football team is in decline due largely to financial starvation. 

NCFC used to be one of the city''s selling points, so settling for the mid-table Championship comfort zone makes no sense even in purely business terms.  That''s the irony blah.  The easiest way to attract business to the conference suite would be to have an ambitious* and successful football team. 

* ambitious = serious about challenging for promotion and survival if we get there

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There will always be enough custom for a professional conference facility at a state of the art, modern football stadium, the scope for the new facility will be even greater once the hotel build has been completed.  This will generate money, after all no bank is going to throw money at something that won''t see a return.

It is all very well throwing money at new players but unless you have an income to support the increased wages and insurance bills you are going to fall flat on your face.  The age old advice of don''t spend more than you earn applies to football clubs as well.  From what I can see the board are investing heavily in projects that will bring in a long term income, they have also invested heavily in the youth academy.  I for one applaud the ''ambition'' of the board on this matter.  After all it takes a lot of balls to ride the storm created by the spend spend spend faction who clearly don''t understand business finances.  If we followed the advice on half the posts I read hear on a daily basis we would be bankrupt in 12-18 months.  Nobody wants that.

Finally, forget the Charltons and Boltons of this world and look at Tottenham.  For the last 10 years (since ENIC took over) they have settled for mid table obscurity, selling their best players and generally keeping the club afloat with the odd decent signing.  They have saved, invested in money making projects and generally built an infrastructure fit for a top end premiership team.  Now they are reaping the benfits, they have a top manager, have spent big money on top players and seriously look like challenging for a champions league spot.  All this is possible for them because of the patience and prudence they showed in the early days.

Worthington in or out doesn''t really matter.  Sacking him won''t make any difference, keeping him won''t make any difference.  We are not going to sign a hat full of top players and spend big money we are just going to plug away with what we have got.  Promotion or the play offs is a serious possibility this season, and even if we don''t go up does it really make a huge difference.  The future for Norwich, both the city and the football team doesn''t look too bad, everything will be OK......Be patient........ 

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     Please remind me jimmy500 how much of a profit Southampton made on Crouch (who we could have signed) and us with Ashton-all in under a year. None of the off-field projects the current board are obsessed with are guarenteed to make money.

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[quote]Please remind me jimmy500 how much of a profit Southampton made on Crouch (who we could have signed) and us with Ashton-all in under a year. None of the off-field projects the current board are obsessed with are guarenteed to make money[/quote]

To use a roulette analogy, buying players to make money is like putting your house on the number 13 and hoping it comes up every time. Sales like Crouch and Ashton are the exception, not the rule. Players get career-threatening injuries, loss of form, problems with their home life etc.  Bricks and mortar investments are more akin to putting some of your money on red, and some on black.  I''m not suggesting that we should turn NCFC into a property development company, but there should be a balance (slightly more in favour of the playing side than currently) between the two. 

Clubs that depend solely upon promotion and selling players end up in administration or saddled with huge debts.

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    Blahblahblah, we have in recent years made good profits on Ashton,Francis,Jonson,Mckenzie and even made a profit on Helveg. There have also been press stories linking Drury and Safri with moves to other clubs for good fees. And i dont think there would be too many arguments that Colin,Etuhu,Croft,Earnshaw and even Huckerby are not now worth significantly more than we signed them for. Name the expensive flops? Hughes? Possibly, but he is currently playing well at Rotherham and for 500,000 we shouldnt expect him to be anything other than a decent squad player. Oh, and several of these players played a big part in winning the club a money-spinning season in the Premiership.....This is the main reason my anger is focussed on the board and not the manager.

    Have you ever considered that NOT backing a manager with an excellent record in the transfer market is playing russian roullette with the future of the club,risking a deterioration in the strength of the squad,followed by poor performances,fan unrest, bickering and disharmony, and who knows,possibly a relegation battle? In short most of the things we are witnessing now. Does the fact that other clubs in our division were prepared to offer more money for the services of our ONLY signing of the season suggest a `slight` imbalance between off and onfield investment?

    The club publicly stated that they were extremely worried by the planning problems encountered during the TaylorWoodrow land sale, and a recent article stated that the amount of money the club makes on the phase three development will depend on various council and planning decisions. So it seems the club are quite happy to take huge risks off the pitch? In my opinion, bearing in mind the vast amounts of money that has been pumped into the club in recent years, the attitude of our current board is more negative,small-minded and self-defeating than even under Robert Chase.

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sorry Mr Carrow, your post disappeared off the front page with all this Dublin sillyness, I will post, but as it is now the end of my "working" day, it''ll have to be tomorrow. :)

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]

[quote]If we''re so hard up, how can we afford to spend £1.3 million on a conference suite?[/quote]

If that conference suite is hired out to businesses to entertain their clients, then it will soon return far greater than 1.3 million.

Is there anything wrong in trying to spend money to make money ?

[/quote]

Thats a rental of £712.00 every day of the year for the next 5 years just to get the £1.3 million back!!!!!!!!! and exactly where are these customers coming from? Its just a room in a sports ground, no lesiure facilities etc on site and to many from outside the region, not exactly a sexy setting.

 Seems to me that this is another smoke screen like the Catering that will only ever quote turnover as its contribution to the NCFC coffers and convieniantly forget to mention the profit.

Its a bit like having the latest Plasma TV when the kids haven''t got any shoes..........Champagne lifestyle on a Brown Ale income

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

    Blahblahblah, we have in recent years made good profits on Ashton,Francis,Jonson,Mckenzie and even made a profit on Helveg. There have also been press stories linking Drury and Safri with moves to other clubs for good fees. And i dont think there would be too many arguments that Colin,Etuhu,Croft,Earnshaw and even Huckerby are not now worth significantly more than we signed them for. Name the expensive flops? Hughes? Possibly, but he is currently playing well at Rotherham and for 500,000 we shouldnt expect him to be anything other than a decent squad player.

[/quote]

Hold on, hold on. This is heresy. I think it is official policy on this baord that Worthington has been a disaster in the transfer market. Don''t start bring balance to the argument or you will confuse us all.

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