Malky swipe at Worthy?

[beelsie 0]

Come on YC your last remark was as empty as it could be -1 in fact.

Personally I look for no comfort in any situation.  I use my experience to formulate the information before me and come to what I regard as a satisfactory explanation of past and likely events.  As all my assessments made on the management and board and their methods of out put and work are down to much speculation on my part, for I am not privy to the information needed to make statements that should only be made on fact. 

I have known Aidy personally and therefore can say that I know him well enough to feel that he is honest in his treatment of those for whom he is responsible, also, he, IMHO is not given to making gratuitous statements for the benefit of the listener.  I do not know Sam Allerdice, but I feel from various press releases etc. that Aidy is of a similar mould. Speculation again!!

YC, I don''t believe that their are any crumbs of comfort as you mention, to be earned from speculation aired on these boards. For that is precisely what it is.  We speculate on the event of horse racing, but until our fancy passes the winning post first, only then we may take comfort in the result, even then we never know if the reason for the win had any thing to do with our own self proclaimed wisdom, developed from discussion/argument based on speculation.

Best wishes to you and all for the speculation that has been encouraged by this post, also for the pique that occasionally appears in some posts when the is a hint of annoyance that maybe someone has challenged what may have been someones Holy Grail!!

[beelsie 0]

YC I have to apologise, for making a mistake in assuming that you are operating in this post as USACanary.  I have replied to a letter by that person under the misapprehension that it might have been you.  You do write in similar vein, if I may be so bold, therefore I do hope there no offence taken.

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

My goodness, you KTF''s are edgy. ( I know some will say you''re not to which I say "Balderdash" )

Spat - ( an appropriate name for you I suspect ): Time to employ the little grey cells before you fire your cannons Spat. What''s rubbish is all of your rhetoric regarding Malky''s ability when we were promoted and whether we should have kept him. That has been debated many times but has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on this thread. My comments were simply directed to the background and experience that Mackay and Boothroyd had at Norwich when we had the play-off experience, and the fact that he chose not to speak to that experience speaks volumes ( for me ).

[/quote]Thanks for your typically pompous reply, pity your user name isn''t more appropriate. As you''ve said, this board is about discussion, but not only of what people associated with ncfc have said, but also other posters. You specualte wildly (and inaccurately imo)  to read into Malky''s comments what you want to to assume is the case, I am speculating that it''s merely nothing more than part of the same tired drivel that suggests he was a martyr, was sold inappropriately etc etc. To use your phrase, I''m engaging in meta-talk. Though, of course the term isn''t really used by anyone expect pop psychologists and management speak tossers, part of a vocabulary designed to cover the paucity of evidence for their claims. By the way, what makes you think we''re KTFers? I want Worthy sacked.

[Trent Canary 0]

"Also, just to help your thought process"

"Time to employ the little grey cells before you fire your cannons Spat"

And the award for most patronising poster Ive EVER come across goes too...

The funny thing is Yankee, If we weren''t all Norwich fans Id understand your attitude a bit better, but Im afraid I dont.

Oh and: -

"My goodness, you KTF''s are edgy"

In your post following that title you respond to me, Spat and Yellow Rages. Yet Im not a KTF, and spat has just said he isnt. But nevermind ay?

[YankeeCanary 0]

beelsie, you need never be concerned that I would take offence at anything you would write, even if it were harsh criticism of my point of view. You are usually constructive with your criticism. I don''t appear to have a similar affect on others however. I realise that my style is pointed at times and obviously irritates quite a few. However, I have to say that often I am simply expressing my own thoughts on a situation without criticising anyone else whatsoever and, yet, I still seem to draw much criticism. Take this thread for example:

The thread title invites comments on whether the article on Malky Mackay was taking a swipe at Nigel Worthington. I respond with my opinion on Malky''s comments. I do so without criticising anyone, including Nigel Worthington. It''s simply my opinion on what Malky likely feels. My brief note attracts all kinds of personal criticism directed at me. Trent Canary, normally a very nice poster, says my note accuses someone of not being open minded ( I said nothing of the kind ). He then refers to another thread that I called someone foolish. Again, I did nothing of the kind. On the thread referred to I actually complimented Mook on some of his thoughts but disagreed with one point, indicating that not paying Worthington off was possibly penny wise and pound foolish. Whether one agrees with my opinion or not, what I stated was an age old expression and quite different than calling a fellow poster foolish. Trent then goes on to say on yet another thread I called him and another poster naive. Yet again, not true. The truth is that I said that what they had to say on a particular thread appeared to be naive. As a matter of fact, I even complimented Trent in the same thread, saying this was unlike his usual input. Similar reaction from other posters, e.g. Spat calls my input rubbish. When I defend myself I am called pompous and arrogant. It''s a good job I''m thick-skinned.

[First Wizard 0]

''By the way, what makes you think we''re KTFers? I want Worthy sacked''.

Flippen heck!, I''ve just gone into shock SPat. I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I hear you say that!.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Refuse to go???  I think Worthy probably told him to leave, I can imagine the conversation that the clown had with malky when telling him he was going to be sold.  A crushing blow I would think.  LOYALTY HAS BEEN SHOWN TO THE CLOWN UNYET HE SHOWS NONE

Andy Hughes is CRAP. He is an awful footballer, can you imagine having that muppet telling you what to do....Its no wonder Deano wanted to leave seing such an incompetant being made Captain (Clapper).   Gary Doherty was signed as a forward player initially and yes to replace Malky, but he was overweight and our WORST defender by some stretch last season, his incompetance was astounding in the premiership.

And did you just write Doherty was brought in for Height and ''Passing Ability''.  You are having a laugh I think Chicken.......

[/quote]I listened to todays Radio Five Live commentary on the play-off final. There was an interview with Malky before the game and painted a very clear picture of what happened. As I have mentioned before - he left West Ham because they couldnt guarantee him first team football this season and he wanted regular football. From his mouth.He hinted that this was the same reason for him leaving Norwich and again he did not use a very open opertunity to even hint at any bad feeling towards the club.A case of reading too much into the situation I think.As for Hughes I mention him because you have argued previously that it would have been worth keeping Malky or even Iwan not for their footballing ability but for their presence. All I am mearly suggesting is that perhaps that presence is there but isnt allowed to have an affect because of the barracking directed at them.Green is another strong character who is normally good at commanding his defence - this season under neggative conditions he looks a mere shadow of last years performances.As for Doherty - it has to be said that his distribution is certainly no worse than Malky''s ever was. I can remember many comments on Malky such as Roy Waller suggesting that he had improved on the previous season (season after play off final) because he now took a touch to controll the ball before hoofing it up the pitch!I think people are looking back on things with more glitter than there was. Yes we need a strong character on the pitch - all I am saying is that maybe there is one out there but the neggative attitude towards the team in general at the moment is hardly helping them or even incuraging them to be more vocal.It wasnt untill the play-off final campaign for example that Malky really came into his prime - his third or fourth season with the club and as mentioned before Jackson amongst others was the previous leader on the pitch and in the dressing room.I should imagine the changing room must have felt like a bunker last season - shelter from the constant barrage of abbuse. Would Malky still being here really have changed that much of our season? No. Would it have stopped the negativeness - no. Infact he would have ended up being just like Hughes, he would have been accused of being Worthingtons spokesman. In some ways I am pleased that he is not here to witness what is going on and so that we can remember those images of him at his best scoring goals on the way to Cardiff.Congrats to him and Watford and I wish them all the best for next season because without a lot of money they are going to need Boothroyd to really start working his magic.Maybe Watford have found themselves a new "Wizzard"!!!

[Trent Canary 0]

Yankee - Fair enough. Sorry if I over-reacted on my last post. Just Im sure you can understand why some people have gotten annoyed a bit, as you have come across as a bit aggressive recently. Ive never noticed it before, and it was probably only because of our interaction on a previous thread that Ive took issue with it.

Anyway apologies all round, we are all friends [:)]

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,047]

I thought the real reason that Malky left Norwich was an open secret....Malky and NW had a "frank exchange of views" after a game and NW did not like what he was hearing and got rid. In my opimion NW is a dictator who thinks team spirit is something that can be bullied into players......

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="1st Wizard"]

''By the way, what makes you think we''re KTFers? I want Worthy sacked''.

Flippen heck!, I''ve just gone into shock SPat. I never, in my wildest dreams, thought I hear you say that!.

[/quote]

Really? I have said it before, you really should listen more ;-) I

turned to the dark side after the Palace game, it was too much of a

capitulation to think that anything but a change was needed. His

apparent arrogance and dismissal of the fans views hasn''t helped him

either and I think he''s brought some of the vitriol on himself. I don''t

however, think that every decision and event that hasn''t worked in our

favour has been part of some huge conspiricy by him and the board to

keep us in the championship whilst they feather their nests. An example

being the Boothroyd si-ua-shun. Worthy wanted to keep him, I suspect

the board might have done too, but Boothroyd apppears to be a supremely

confident (arrogant?) man and probably would have wanted the top job to

stay. Watford fans may well end up saying the same things as we have

about NW if it all goes pear shaped for them in the prem.

[beelsie 0]

This thread has had good input and has resulted in an exchange of views that are both refreshing as well as incisive especially when we as amateur psychologists try to fathom out the reported statements made by various people at NCFC and convert these into pluses regarding our own thoughts on the matter.  However, I would like to refer to today''s article in today''s EDP where Andie''s associates were involved in a press interview.  Because their statements seem in my opinion to reinforce my feelings about the lad. They were as follows:Mackay: has no doubts that Boothroyd will deliver as promised "They have made the players believe in themselves and believe that they are good footballers,"he said "They''re attack-minded and score a lot of goals" Of Boothroyd he added "His management skills are fantastic. People want to play for him, he gets that extra 1% out of people that some other managers don''t get,"  Leeds coach Blackwell had words of praise also for Aidie.  Those utterances, for me,  back up what Worthy and others have said about the boy, and from Aidie himself a shot at all the skill, as opposed to work rate critics (I want both) says about the fact that his team will be demotion favourites, " But that''s OK, we won''t go down. If I started to think about that, that''s what will happen. It will be a self-fulfilling prophesy. " The best way to sum it all up is to say we are a model for other clubs that don''t have a great deal of money. With good organisation,preparation, a fantastic work ethic, (Hoof Ball maniacs) a real hunger and a no-fear attitude anything is possible.  Is it not feasible that some if not all that rhetoric came in small doses from the much castigated Worthy who indeed held the, then, young Aidie in such high esteem.  Another shot on Worthy''s behalf, today, we hear Duncan Ferguson is on a free and Worthy is an admirer, but obviously knowing what the board have put in the kitty, says that his wages will be more than he can afford.  This I will call short sighted, for I can imagine what big Dunc could do for our short A***s in the forward line, we would score a hatful in every game.  Not too high on the skills level but guile and the ability to frighten the daylights out of the championship sides.  As Dunc puts the pressure on.  OTBC!!!!

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Sons of Boadicea"]I thought the real reason that Malky left Norwich was an open secret....Malky and NW had a "frank exchange of views" after a game and NW did not like what he was hearing and got rid. In my opimion NW is a dictator who thinks team spirit is something that can be bullied into players......[/quote]Yes - didnt he kick a boot at him leaving a gash and a happy smiley plaster on his forehead? I head he also threw the other boot at him along with the bootbag, spare studs and bootboy!!!Hang on a sec - Malky didnt go to Real Madrid did he? No I am getting confused!!!

[Dave_O 0]

what are you lot like?  Why analyse Malky''s comments into a hyperbole of criticism against his previous empoloyers?  And then turn on each other for interpreting the "hidden meaning" in Malky''s words differently?

I''m not even going to speculate as to who or what team he may have been referring to - quite frankly, I don''t care.  Footballers seem to roll out the usual bland and vague answers to the usual bland and vague questions.  I don''t think for an instant that any of them provide real insights into what goes on behind the scenes.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Well we havent seen any leadership in the side since Malky and Iwan left have we chicken, certainly not from the dullard on th etouchline.

Maybe HOOOOOOZZZZZZZEEEEEYYYY will supply it while he is fluffing passes and missing tackles!!

[ZLF 281]

As always there is more than one story behind any event and which one is true who knows - but another version as a counterpoint to the official club love in you rightly quote sPat is Boothroyd made some suggestions on how performances could be improved with the aim of making himslef part of the first team set up;  Allegedly this advice was seen as undermining the manager and within days Aidy had left the club.  

As usual we will not know what version is the truth however this series of events was shared well before the managers popularity started to wane suggesting it may not just be another modern WOer conspiracy.

I am with you on worthy not getting everything wrong - selling malky in the circs was spot on - but he still needs changing 

 

   

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,047]

ZLF - I disagree, getting rid of Malky was a big mistake, he would have been an ideal foil to Simon Charlton who was used to having big guys along side him in central defence at Bolton......

[ZLF 281]

Fair does SoB - but I just cant agree.  What we missed was Malkys leadership not his fooballing ability; we didnt suffer from an aerial point of view more from movement and pace - where malky is weakest and weaker than flem who struggled all year.

 

Malky and Flem were conceeding faster than ever before hux signed - Malky is a good champs player but not the defensive god he appears to have turned into since he has left by wanting to leave.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Citizen Journalist Foghorn"]

Well we havent seen any leadership in the side since Malky and Iwan left have we chicken, certainly not from the dullard on th etouchline.

Maybe HOOOOOOZZZZZZZEEEEEYYYY will supply it while he is fluffing passes and missing tackles!!

[/quote]GOOD GOD MAN - GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF!!!!No one is doubting the impact of his character - we (I am not the only one) are simply suggesting that yet again out of the smallest of possibilities people have tried to tirn this into another rediculous ant Worthington thing.Roberts went at the right time and Iwan suggests Worthington went as far as being upset at having to let him go - unloyal no. But everybody has to face up to reality at some point.The fact of the matter is Malky may have kept our spirits high but then we would have conceeded more goals.I know what you are getting at and yes we did need more leadership and thats one of the reasons Helveg was brought in. Had he been here now I think you would have seen him playing as captain the whole season. But he chose not to be - in all fairness we know little of Luis-Jean for all you know he could be good too, though I doubt he will be the characters that Malky or Iwan were.But then Iwan is one of the biggest heroes of this era of the club - you cant really compare him to anyone.I think we should give Shackel the nod - he is one of our youngsters although not so young anymore but has been at this club all his life. Its about time he was given some responsibility to see how he reacts.

[USAcanary 0]

"Roberts went at the right time and Iwan suggests Worthington went as far as being upset at having to let him go - unloyal no. But everybody has to face up to reality at some point."

Maybe Worthy will face up to reality and realize he has passed his sell by date.

 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

Helveg didnt get played?!?!?!  and when he finally was given a runout in his position for a run of games (more than 2) he impressed.

I doubt we would have conceeded more goals (especially if Malky had played instead of the Doc cos he was utterly inept in the prem)

I have no problem with Iwan leaving, Im just saying when they left the heart and soul of the team left, and Worthy, as with so many things, has failed miserably to replace them (apart from HOOOOZZZZZEEEEEYYYYY HOOF!!!)

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

"But he chose not to be" - he wasnt getting played!!!! - 9 games in his preffered position all season!! its no surprise his international boss wanted to see him move to actually get games....

[chicken 0]

CJF - how easy do you think it is to buy that kind of quality?I don''t think Iwan was seen as a leader untill he had been here a season and realised that the club was prepared to work with him and make him the player he wanted to be. In a way its the same with Malky. They both had alright ish careers untill they came to Norwich - neither of them were known for their leadership qualities.As it turns out when the time came they stepped forward and as I have said before there could be a couple of those in the squad at the moment but with the conditions it could be quite hard for them to have the courage to stand up and try and get the team together.As I have also said the one player that has tried to do that this season, also isnt the best footballer on the pitch much like Malky wasnt. But as you have pointed out Hughes doesnt have the footballing qualities needed to be a leader on the pitch.What we need at the moment is the more experienced pros to get their act together and bond and help the younger ones like the old guard used to. I am talking about when we had Iwan, Holt, Emblen (yes Emblen - does no one remember him buying tickets to sit behind the goal and shout at the defence?!!!), Malky and to some extent Edworthy playing. We had no shortage of people willing to come forward to try and lift the team.I think its as much to do with the amount of change over the last two seasons as anything else. You look back to the promotion campaign and you have Drury, McVeigh, Huckerby, Fleming and Green that were first team players. MacKenzie was there but on the bench mainly bar Henderson and Shackel who are reletively young they are the only players remaining from that era and they are the players you would expect to come forward to lead.The problem is that out of those only McVeigh, Green, Fleming and Drury have been at the club longer than that. Fleming is nearing the end of his career, McVeigh flitters in and out of the side and Drury has already been tested as a captain to which some people suggested he was too soft and not the right material. And lets face it - not every player is. That leaves Green. I wouldnt mind seeing him given a go as captain - Gunn was for a time and that served to lift the team to. He doesnt seem scared to yell at players and also seems well respected about the club - who knows it may even convince him to stay?!!

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,047]

ZLF - I thought we struggled aerially in the Prem, Charlton made the point that when he played at Bolton he "swept up" behind a tall guy, unfortunately we got rid of our tall guy and went for two similar players in the centre of defence, which did not work, consequently Charlton was then played out of position, and the rest as they say is history....

[macdougalls perm 0]

Back to the original theme, I listened to Malky''s comments during this interview and it genuinely seemed, to me, to be a swipe at Pardew - it is obviously possible that he was having a go at Worthington but it didn''t sound like it to me. 

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="macdougalls perm"]Back to the original theme, I listened to Malky''s comments during this interview and it genuinely seemed, to me, to be a swipe at Pardew - it is obviously possible that he was having a go at Worthington but it didn''t sound like it to me. [/quote]

Actually Pardew never has a bad word to say about Mackay and reguarly mentions his influence in the promotion season.  And Pardew offered him the chance to stay at West Ham, although couldnt garuantee him first team football, or have a free transfer.  He Hadnt been getting in Pardew''s team for the last month and a half of the season.

Worthy Sold Him.

[komakino 275]

Green as captain?! I don''t think so!

It would be madness to give the captaincy to someone who hasn''t wanted to be here for some time. How could he motivate players in that context? '' Do as I say, not what I want to do? '' Gunn was a mouthy sod - and was all the better for it. How we could do with that now! Greens'' laid back approach wouldn''t work as captain.

He used to shout when he was interested, but now my Grandfather makes more noise - and he''s been dead for six years.