The threat to our democracy

[Herman 9,771]

33 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Guardian readers in hate filled frenzy alert. 

Be careful out there folks, one of them may give you a disapproving look

If you get a raised eyebrow and a gentle shake of the head, leg it.

[Herman 9,771]

Real threats to our democracy.

1. Vladimir Putin.

2. Donald Trump.

3. A too powerful media.

4. The Conservative Party.

5. Unaccountable think tanks.

6. Referendums.

7. An ill informed voting public.

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

11 minutes ago, Herman said:

Real threats to our democracy.

1. Vladimir Putin.

2. Donald Trump.

3. A too powerful media.

4. The Conservative Party.

5. Unaccountable think tanks.

6. Referendums.

7. An ill informed voting public.

8. Lobbyists

9. Donors

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

Sorry, wrong thread 

Edited February 29 by dylanisabaddog

[Naturalcynic 631]

34 minutes ago, Herman said:

Real threats to our democracy.

1. Vladimir Putin.

2. Donald Trump.

3. A too powerful media.

4. The Conservative Party.

5. Unaccountable think tanks.

6. Referendums.

7. An ill informed voting public.

8.  Political Islam and militant Islamism

9.  Far-left activist groups

10.  Politically-motivated Union leaders

11.  Ongoing huge net migration including by illegal routes.

12  Those who support 8, 9, 10 and 11

13  Those who deliberately put their heads in the sand about 8, 9, 10 and 11

[Herman 9,771]

See numbers 3 and 7.

[Naturalcynic 631]

39 minutes ago, Herman said:

See numbers 3 and 7.

See numbers 12 and 13.

[Herman 9,771]

11 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

See numbers 12 and 13.

The people with the least power, money and influence are not my biggest concern. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

14 minutes ago, Herman said:

The people with the least power, money and influence are not my biggest concern. 

I can believe that.

[sonyc 5,523]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

Real threats to our democracy.

1. Vladimir Putin.

2. Donald Trump.

3. A too powerful media.

4. The Conservative Party.

5. Unaccountable think tanks.

6. Referendums.

7. An ill informed voting public.

 

Tanita agrees with you...

Edited February 29 by sonyc

[Fen Canary 828]

25 minutes ago, Herman said:

The people with the least power, money and influence are not my biggest concern. 

Is that the reason you’ve been disparaging the largely working class voters who voted to leave the EU for the past 8 years? 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Guardian Daily Mail readers in hate filled frenzy alert. 

Be careful out there folks, one of them may give you a disapproving look

Funny how that ironic statement works every bit as well with the Mail.

[Herman 9,771]

23 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Is that the reason you’ve been disparaging the largely working class voters who voted to leave the EU for the past 8 years? 

I am a working class voter.. 

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

As before the real tangible threat to our democracy (ignoring external factors i.e. Russia) comes from the right and populists. Democracy rests on tolerance and inclusivity not a tyranny of an unthinking majority.

You can see the age old recipe in action again today -.

1. Take a period of economic difficulty to cause pain and discomfort especially to the poorer in society.

2. Place the blame on some 'other'. Any easily identifiable group will do especially if they wear funny clothes and preferably foreigners. Today it's Muslims but it's been Jews, Romanies and the Irish in the past. Could even be those 'intellectuals'.

3.Demonize them and rabble-rouse 

4. Reinforce false narratives via a helpful controlled mass (and today social) media 

5. Change the laws to make dissent ever more difficult. Neuter the courts. Those that protest label 'enemies of the people'.

6. finally, welcome to an authoritarian state. 

One only has to look as far as Trump to see where we are headed with the current right-wing populist nut jobs. If he wins will there be free and fair further elections in the US? Many are not convinced but by then far far too late.

 

[Naturalcynic 631]

46 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

As before the real tangible threat to our democracy (ignoring external factors i.e. Russia) comes from the right and populists. Democracy rests on tolerance and inclusivity not a tyranny of an unthinking majority.

You can see the age old recipe in action again today -.

1. Take a period of economic difficulty to cause pain and discomfort especially to the poorer in society.

2. Place the blame on some 'other'. Any easily identifiable group will do especially if they wear funny clothes and preferably foreigners. Today it's Muslims but it's been Jews, Romanies and the Irish in the past. Could even be those 'intellectuals'.

3.Demonize them and rabble-rouse 

4. Reinforce false narratives via a helpful controlled mass (and today social) media 

5. Change the laws to make dissent ever more difficult. Neuter the courts. Those that protest label 'enemies of the people'.

6. finally, welcome to an authoritarian state. 

One only has to look as far as Trump to see where we are headed with the current right-wing populist nut jobs. If he wins will there be free and fair further elections in the US? Many are not convinced but by then far far too late.

 

I really can’t be bothered to waste time dissecting this, but honestly, this really is utter claptrap.  There are more holes in your attempted argument than a rusty colander.  We could be forgiven for thinking that you’re little more than an attention-seeking left-wing troll.

Edited February 29 by Naturalcynic

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

3 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

8.  Political Islam and militant Islamism

9.  Far-left activist groups

10.  Politically-motivated Union leaders

11.  Ongoing huge net migration including by illegal routes.

12  Those who support 8, 9, 10 and 11

13  Those who deliberately put their heads in the sand about 8, 9, 10 and 11

11. It's not the people in small boats that have ruined this country. It's the people in big boats

[ricardo 7,395]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

I am a working class voter.. 

I am an ex working, working class voter.

[Naturalcynic 631]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

I am a working class voter.. 

Is a working class voter the same as a middle class voter except that they’re left-wing politically?

[sonyc 5,523]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

As before the real tangible threat to our democracy (ignoring external factors i.e. Russia) comes from the right and populists. Democracy rests on tolerance and inclusivity not a tyranny of an unthinking majority.

You can see the age old recipe in action again today -.

1. Take a period of economic difficulty to cause pain and discomfort especially to the poorer in society.

2. Place the blame on some 'other'. Any easily identifiable group will do especially if they wear funny clothes and preferably foreigners. Today it's Muslims but it's been Jews, Romanies and the Irish in the past. Could even be those 'intellectuals'.

3.Demonize them and rabble-rouse 

4. Reinforce false narratives via a helpful controlled mass (and today social) media 

5. Change the laws to make dissent ever more difficult. Neuter the courts. Those that protest label 'enemies of the people'.

6. finally, welcome to an authoritarian state. 

One only has to look as far as Trump to see where we are headed with the current right-wing populist nut jobs. If he wins will there be free and fair further elections in the US? Many are not convinced but by then far far too late.

 

Reading this you've probably read the work of Erich Fromm? His work hasn't lost any relevance or heft over the years. He studied fascism very closely (as an orthodox Jew himself the perils of N a z I s m were obvious). His work is always worth a re-read for anyone interested in populism or political movements and how 'strong' leaders come to power, promising everything. It ties in with consumer society and the meaningless that accompanies it (ultimately). Liberal values and arguments are useless and will never convince...until they offer a proper alternative. Simply stating a leader is a charlatan and a liar don't have currency.

His work certainly has been a touchstone in my life. I could write a long essay but it would be pointless as I would probably be vilified and I can't be bothered.

There are similar writers too who argue and debate  "theofascism" which also covers religious fundamentalism. Also, a real threat.

Fromm considers the potential in all of us if we are not careful (putting up with the status quo is yet another response) to seek authoritarian solutions. No need to think then. And one of the principal 'conditions' for fascism is a failing economy and huge discrepancies in wealth. 

Your list is a neat summary.

It is a struggle of Sisyphus proportions (Sisyphean). A task that can never be completed. People will keep turning up as so-called saviours. People will continue to be attracted to them. 

There are ways of inuring oneself but again to go through these would invite so much criticism and hatred. That's where we are I'm afraid. These threads are full of anger and the making of enemies (which don't exist actually). It's why I've thought many times of giving up for good posting here about politics. Nothing one can add is of use or real interest to anyone else apart from a source for insult...so what is the point of trying to be resourceful? What one can do is support others in their opinions however.

I might end here by saying that The myth of Sisyphus is a brilliant book. Possibly one of the best and I still believe that the work of Camus will become even more relevant for the 21st Century. Fromm's Fear of Freedom is another one one of those "Greatest books of our time" lists.

 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

32 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Reading this you've probably read the work of Erich Fromm? His work hasn't lost any relevance or heft over the years. He studied fascism very closely (as an orthodox Jew himself the perils of N a z I s m were obvious). His work is always worth a re-read for anyone interested in populism or political movements and how 'strong' leaders come to power, promising everything. It ties in with consumer society and the meaningless that accompanies it (ultimately). Liberal values and arguments are useless and will never convince...until they offer a proper alternative. Simply stating a leader is a charlatan and a liar don't have currency.

His work certainly has been a touchstone in my life. I could write a long essay but it would be pointless as I would probably be vilified and I can't be bothered.

There are similar writers too who argue and debate  "theofascism" which also covers religious fundamentalism. Also, a real threat.

Fromm considers the potential in all of us if we are not careful (putting up with the status quo is yet another response) to seek authoritarian solutions. No need to think then. And one of the principal 'conditions' for fascism is a failing economy and huge discrepancies in wealth. 

Your list is a neat summary.

It is a struggle of Sisyphus proportions (Sisyphean). A task that can never be completed. People will keep turning up as so-called saviours. People will continue to be attracted to them. 

There are ways of inuring oneself but again to go through these would invite so much criticism and hatred. That's where we are I'm afraid. These threads are full of anger and the making of enemies (which don't exist actually). It's why I've thought many times of giving up for good posting here about politics. Nothing one can add is of use or real interest to anyone else apart from a source for insult...so what is the point of trying to be resourceful? What one can do is support others in their opinions however.

I might end here by saying that The myth of Sisyphus is a brilliant book. Possibly one of the best and I still believe that the work of Camus will become even more relevant for the 21st Century. Fromm's Fear of Freedom is another one one of those "Greatest books of our time" lists.

 

 

Thanks SC - I'm not that well read I'm afraid (I'm not of the arts). HF will be able to critique my arguments!

I would claim these as my own observations but no doubt they are in fact a distillation of many snippets I've seen / read or heard over the years as to the roots and beginnings of authoritarian societies in the midst of otherwise 'civilised' functioning  democracies. Only have to think back to the 1930s etc. How did that happen in Germany? We had our own 'brown shirts'.

The scary bit is these changes creep up, slowly, bit by bit, and then its too late as the GOP (and Mitchell) has discovered.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

As before the real tangible threat to our democracy (ignoring external factors i.e. Russia) comes from the right and populists. Democracy rests on tolerance and inclusivity not a tyranny of an unthinking majority.

You can see the age old recipe in action again today -.

1. Take a period of economic difficulty to cause pain and discomfort especially to the poorer in society.

2. Place the blame on some 'other'. Any easily identifiable group will do especially if they wear funny clothes and preferably foreigners. Today it's Muslims but it's been Jews, Romanies and the Irish in the past. Could even be those 'intellectuals'.

3.Demonize them and rabble-rouse 

4. Reinforce false narratives via a helpful controlled mass (and today social) media 

5. Change the laws to make dissent ever more difficult. Neuter the courts. Those that protest label 'enemies of the people'.

6. finally, welcome to an authoritarian state. 

One only has to look as far as Trump to see where we are headed with the current right-wing populist nut jobs. If he wins will there be free and fair further elections in the US? Many are not convinced but by then far far too late.

 

I'm sorry, but the left wing obsession with trying to just invent and impose new cultural norms that people actually don't really believe in on the whole is also a threat to democracy, no matter how much people gaslight the resistance to it as 'culture wars'. If there is a culture war then the left wing militants are very much the aggressors .

Edited February 29 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

16 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm sorry, but the left wing obsession with trying to just invent and impose new cultural norms that people actually don't really believe in on the whole is also a threat to democracy, no matter how much people gaslight the resistance to it as 'culture wars'.

Don't follow that at all - how are any new cultural norms a threat to democracy? Or was that the argument against women's suffrage? Cultures may develop and change - generally here tend to become more liberal and tolerant with better education and thought but that of itself is not a threat to democracy.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Don't follow that at all - how are any new cultural norms a threat to democracy? Or was that the argument against women's suffrage? Cultures may develop and change - generally here tend to become more liberal and tolerant with better education and thought but that of itself is not a threat to democracy.

It's aggression with which they're pushed and the attacks on people who don't buy it. JK Rowling remains a target and actually it's notable that her own approach has become much less sensitive to the whole issue, which is a direct consequence of how anyone standing up to these, frankly really crap ideas that are creating no end of social complications, is bullied into submission. I'm just waiting for her to be branded a far right extremist.

To a lesser extent you're actually guilty of it yourself on this transgender business specifically, pointing to fringe biological cases to gaslight norms about sex as some freakish luddite idea and branding people who don't accept it 'ignorant'. You're clearly not stupid and yet clearly you've been brainwashed into believing the ideas that have been global norms, not just national ones, for the entire existence of humanity are now 'wrong' in the space of about a decade.

 

Edited February 29 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,301]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

See numbers 3 and 7.

 

5 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

See numbers 12 and 13.

I see dead people

[horsefly 4,301]

4 hours ago, Herman said:

I am a working class voter.. 

 

2 hours ago, ricardo said:

I am an ex working, working class voter.

I'm Brian and so is my wife

[horsefly 4,301]

4 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

As before the real tangible threat to our democracy (ignoring external factors i.e. Russia) comes from the right and populists. Democracy rests on tolerance and inclusivity not a tyranny of an unthinking majority.

You can see the age old recipe in action again today -.

1. Take a period of economic difficulty to cause pain and discomfort especially to the poorer in society.

2. Place the blame on some 'other'. Any easily identifiable group will do especially if they wear funny clothes and preferably foreigners. Today it's Muslims but it's been Jews, Romanies and the Irish in the past. Could even be those 'intellectuals'.

3.Demonize them and rabble-rouse 

4. Reinforce false narratives via a helpful controlled mass (and today social) media 

5. Change the laws to make dissent ever more difficult. Neuter the courts. Those that protest label 'enemies of the people'.

6. finally, welcome to an authoritarian state. 

One only has to look as far as Trump to see where we are headed with the current right-wing populist nut jobs. If he wins will there be free and fair further elections in the US? Many are not convinced but by then far far too late.

 

Spot on YF. You can see it happening in the UK as we speak. Goebbels wrote the manual, and Reform UK have digested every word. Take a (justifiably) discontented working class and harness their anger by identifying a suitable target for their vitriol. Immigrants are the classic choice, and so it is that Reform UK has focused upon them. However, they know that won't quite swing it for them in the current environment, so they have invented a nebulous version of the "Establishment" as a catchall to claim that they are the only alternative available. The irony of that is revealed by the briefest look at who Reform UK are.

Reform UK is a private company owned by 3 directors; **** Tice, Nigel Farage, and Paul Oakden. They have complete control of the "party", with no formal input from the membership. They hire and fire who they wish, determine policy as they wish. All three are ex-public schoolboys. All three are very wealthy (especially Tice a multi-millionaire). Their last two by-election candidates were Ben Habib and Rupert Lowe. Both of those are ex-public schoolboys, both are multi-millionaires. Like Tice their considerable wealth has been significantly accumulated from the low-paid working class labour they employ.

The stench of establishment in Reform UK is stronger than the stench of urine at a non-league football team's bogs. The idea that this establishment cabal has any interest in alleviating the plight of the poorly treated working classes is pure gaslighting at its most extreme. Their extremist far-right views saw them marginalised by the traditional parties and, as with the Na*zis in 1930s Germany, they recognised that their only route to power would be through manipulation and exploitation of the discontented working class.  Reform UK is nothing more than a front to serve the personal ambitions of a handful of privileged establishment men who have no compunction in exploiting working class discontent to achieve their lust for power. The divisive rhetoric they have to employ in achieving those ends is considered mere collateral damage to the people at the violent end of that language. Likewise the inevitable betrayal of the hopes they engendered in the discontented working class is also considered as just another necessary boardroom decision to exploit the human resources available. YF's simple schema captures very neatly the progress and aims of this bunch of populist grifters.

[BurwellCanary 216]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Funny how that ironic statement works every bit as well with the Mail.

I would have hoped that people reading the Mail weren't allowed on here

[dylanisabaddog 4,930]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

Reading this you've probably read the work of Erich Fromm? His work hasn't lost any relevance or heft over the years. He studied fascism very closely (as an orthodox Jew himself the perils of N a z I s m were obvious). His work is always worth a re-read for anyone interested in populism or political movements and how 'strong' leaders come to power, promising everything. It ties in with consumer society and the meaningless that accompanies it (ultimately). Liberal values and arguments are useless and will never convince...until they offer a proper alternative. Simply stating a leader is a charlatan and a liar don't have currency.

His work certainly has been a touchstone in my life. I could write a long essay but it would be pointless as I would probably be vilified and I can't be bothered.

There are similar writers too who argue and debate  "theofascism" which also covers religious fundamentalism. Also, a real threat.

Fromm considers the potential in all of us if we are not careful (putting up with the status quo is yet another response) to seek authoritarian solutions. No need to think then. And one of the principal 'conditions' for fascism is a failing economy and huge discrepancies in wealth. 

Your list is a neat summary.

It is a struggle of Sisyphus proportions (Sisyphean). A task that can never be completed. People will keep turning up as so-called saviours. People will continue to be attracted to them. 

There are ways of inuring oneself but again to go through these would invite so much criticism and hatred. That's where we are I'm afraid. These threads are full of anger and the making of enemies (which don't exist actually). It's why I've thought many times of giving up for good posting here about politics. Nothing one can add is of use or real interest to anyone else apart from a source for insult...so what is the point of trying to be resourceful? What one can do is support others in their opinions however.

I might end here by saying that The myth of Sisyphus is a brilliant book. Possibly one of the best and I still believe that the work of Camus will become even more relevant for the 21st Century. Fromm's Fear of Freedom is another one one of those "Greatest books of our time" lists.

 

 

Camus said "everything I have learned in life I have learned from playing football" 

So he's probably right about everything. Sorry sonyc, I will get round to finishing his book one day. It's upstairs somewhere..... 

Edited February 29 by dylanisabaddog

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Don't follow that at all - how are any new cultural norms a threat to democracy? Or was that the argument against women's suffrage? Cultures may develop and change - generally here tend to become more liberal and tolerant with better education and thought but that of itself is not a threat to democracy.

I think this would be an occasion where your use of quotation marks, i.e. 'cultural norms' would be quite appropriate. Because I don't accept that women not being born with a penis and simply getting something done is normal and yet there is a concerted effort to push the idea that this is somehow normal. It's nonsense and actual women's rights are being undermined as a consequence.

Nor do I think intellect or education has the slightest relevance on the subject of sexual behaviour and attitudes, where all of the relevant drives are 100% animal and not intellectual. Sexual characteristics are all about defining us sexually for appraisal by potential mates, not reconciling your own thoughts about yourself. Nor should your own views about your own genitals be even relevant in a society where being attracted to the same sex is perfectly reasonable.

Gender dysphoria belongs in the same box with anorexia and any other dysphoria. It's a mental problem, not a physical problem. And it's also a problem that it's being conflated with sexual preferences by being thrown into the whole LGBTQ+ pigeon hole alongside sexual preferences, which is a completely separate thing.

Edited February 29 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think this would be an occasion where your use of quotation marks, i.e. 'cultural norms' would be quite appropriate. Because I don't accept that women not being born with a penis and simply getting something done is normal and yet there is a concerted effort to push the idea that this is somehow normal. It's nonsense and actual women's rights are being undermined as a consequence.

Nor do I think education or education has the slightest relevance on the subject of sexual behaviour and attitudes, where all of the relevant drives are 100% animal and not intellectual.

What's this to do with any threat to 'democracy'. I get you don't like the shifting social norms - much the same could of been said in the past of marriage, gays, abortion, contraception, woman's suffrage or even female priests. Democracy survived.