The threat to our democracy

[Herman 9,830]

5 minutes ago, Aggy said:

A different point perhaps to the main one in the thread, but I’m not sure that’s necessarily right When it comes to Anderson. He is an ex-coal miner, who previously represented Labour, in an ex coal mining area which in the 64 years between the constituency being formed in 1955 and 2019 had only had a non-Labour MP for two years after a by election. The same constituency was a fairly high voter for the BNP in 2010. He has only been in the Conservative party for a handful of years. Not sure it’s a Tory issue as such. 

Another separate point though, but with Anderson, my guess is he is expecting not to be re-elected and is now trying to become some sort of new Katie Hopkins to try and still be ‘relevant’ this time next year…. 

Maybe joins the Reform Party wins the seat for them and becomes a poster boy for the very right-wing. Personally I wish he would sod off and we never see his like with any form of power again.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,597]

30 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Seems like the current incumbents confuse and conflate the two doesn't it?

The risk of conflation on these sorts of things is always high. 'Pro-Palestinians' conflating British Jews with Israelis and terrorising British Jews for example.

The best way of avoiding hostility to Islamism becoming Islamophobia is to address the culture in British Islam that makes radicalisation so easy that three young girls from Bethnal green, all friends, can be persuaded it'll be fun to go and join a terrorist group in Syria and then egg each other on to go through with it.

In fairness, the majority of British Muslims are supportive of anti-radicalisation measures, but this is somewhat undermined by left-wing politicians and 'community leaders' targeting government-led schemes by branding them 'racist' and 'toxic' for the sake of political brownie points. One could call it divisive and polarising rhetoric on their part.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51676923

 

Edited February 26 by littleyellowbirdie

[Naturalcynic 673]

18 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Seems like the current incumbents confuse and conflate the two doesn't it?

In truth they are only representing the dregs that are left from the base it seems. What a positions to get yourself into.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/tory-supporters-lash-out-at-snake-sunak-over-lee-anderson-suspension

Criticising the expansionist policies of Israel isn’t anti-semitic but calling for Israel and its population to be removed from the map almost certainly is and using Palestine as a pretext for targeting Jews in the UK definitely is.  In the same way, pointing out the threat to our civilisation from Islamism isn’t Islamophobic, whereas calling for all Muslims to be deported, for example, clearly is.  I’m sure you can see the difference.

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The risk of conflation on these sorts of things is always high. 'Pro-Palestinians' conflating British Jews with Israelis and terrorising British Jews for example.

The best way of avoiding hostility to Islamism becoming Islamophobia is to address the culture in British Islam that makes radicalisation so easy that three young girls from Bethnal green, all friends, can be persuaded it'll be fun to go and join a terrorist group in Syria and then egg each other on to go through with it.

In fairness, the majority of British Muslims are supportive of anti-radicalisation measures, but this is somewhat undermined by left-wing politicians and 'community leaders' targeting government-led schemes by branding them 'racist' and 'toxic' for the sake of political brownie points.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51676923

 

Most of that I agree with - it is the conflation of a handful of extremists with the greater body that causes all the problems.

Sadly, some like Anderson, Braverman etc. seem all to willing to make that leap for their own purposes.  

[littleyellowbirdie 2,597]

4 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Most of that I agree with - it is the conflation of a handful of extremists with the greater body that causes all the problems.

Sadly, some like Anderson, Braverman etc. seem all to willing to make that leap for their own purposes.  

Yup. However, while it's essential not to conflate the extremists with the wider community, there has to be acknowledgement that the tolerance of radical ideas in the wider community is a large part of why they have such an easy time of radicalising actually pretty significant numbers considering the pool is much smaller than the potential pool for the far right, but that's because in wider society there is not the prevailing tolerance for extreme right sentiments as there is for more fundamentalist ideas in Islam in the wider Muslim community. You can point to Braverman etc .but that's mirrored by the obstructive attitude of some I've mentioned with regard to government efforts to engage to get the wider Muslim community to be more pro-active in preventing radicalisation, the inconsistency between actual majorityapproval for Prevent among Muslims being at odds with the rhetoric of some left-wing politicians and community leaders being a case in point.

[Barbe bleu 832]

On 25/02/2024 at 16:59, Herman said:

I don't see him as a turncoat. He's a communist/marxist, arch-contrarian who writes bollox simply to stir up idiots.

Is he on here then?

A few of us aren't Communist/Marxists,  but the rest applies

[dylanisabaddog 4,998]

9 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Islamism is the single biggest constant terrorist threat in the UK. That's fact, not 'confirmation bias'. But there is persistent deflection from from that with 'but what about the far right' a smaller threat in spite of that particular group potentially drawing from the vast majority of the population rather than the minority of Muslims, underlining that Islam in the UK does have distressingly permissive attitudes to radical Islamic views among them that leads to the radicalisation of many more Muslims to Islamic fundamentalism; British born Muslims radicalised to kill innocent people in the UK and overseas in far greater numbers than is the case with the 'far right'

The deflection and whataboutism is a joke. There is an unacceptable will on the left to simply bury its collective head in the sands about a very real issue. And ironically, the main thing that feeds the far right is the unacceptably indulgent attitude in mainstream politics to the permissiveness towards radical attitudes within Muslim communities in the UK.

I don't dispute that there are some extremely unpleasant Muslim activists out there. We really could do without them as we have enough religious hatred already without them adding to it. But we don't know for certain where these threats are coming from. 

We do know for certain that when three black footballers missed penalties for England there were a record number of hate posts and threats on social media. I doubt any of those were made by Muslims. 

Quite simply, there are horrible hateful people on all sides. What I really don't understand is why we continue to allow anonymity online. Take that away and the problem would disappear. I'm regularly told that isn't possible. Yes it is, it just needs a huge amount of money spent. 

What really annoys me is that the problems in the Middle East are affecting this country so much. Nothing we say or do will have any effect whatsoever. These people won't even listen to the Americans so they definitely won't listen to us. We currently have severe economic problems in this country but we continue to spend a ridiculous amount of time arguing about two groups of people 3,000 miles away engaging in a 1,000 year war over who has the best imaginary friend in the sky. 

If any of you really want to make a difference, start arguing in favour of taking religion out of our schools. Atheists are now in the majority in England but we continue to allow religion to be pushed down our children's throats. 

[Naturalcynic 673]

12 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I don't dispute that there are some extremely unpleasant Muslim activists out there. We really could do without them as we have enough religious hatred already without them adding to it. But we don't know for certain where these threats are coming from. 

We do know for certain that when three black footballers missed penalties for England there were a record number of hate posts and threats on social media. I doubt any of those were made by Muslims. 

Quite simply, there are horrible hateful people on all sides. What I really don't understand is why we continue to allow anonymity online. Take that away and the problem would disappear. I'm regularly told that isn't possible. Yes it is, it just needs a huge amount of money spent. 

What really annoys me is that the problems in the Middle East are affecting this country so much. Nothing we say or do will have any effect whatsoever. These people won't even listen to the Americans so they definitely won't listen to us. We currently have severe economic problems in this country but we continue to spend a ridiculous amount of time arguing about two groups of people 3,000 miles away engaging in a 1,000 year war over who has the best imaginary friend in the sky. 

If any of you really want to make a difference, start arguing in favour of taking religion out of our schools. Atheists are now in the majority in England but we continue to allow religion to be pushed down our children's throats. 

Taking religion (i.e. indoctrinating with one particular religion over all others) out of schools would seem to be a reasonable step, although achieving that in a predominantly Jewish or Islamic area might be easier said than done.  Unforseen consequences of that, particularly in church schools, would mean an end to nativity plays, Christmas carols etc.  Taking religious indoctrination out of the home environment would be impossible. 

Edited February 27 by Naturalcynic

[Paul101 94]

the police investigated the england footballer comments

and 95% came from the middle east and africa very few where from this country

[dylanisabaddog 4,998]

5 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Taking religion (i.e. indoctrinating with one particular religion over all others) out of schools would seem to be a reasonable step, although achieving that in a predominantly Jewish or Islamic area might be easier said than done.  Taking religious indoctrination out of the home environment would be impossible. 

On the contrary. 100 years ago nearly everyone believed in God. Now it's less than 50% so thankfully religion is starting to die. Give it another 100 years and it should be dead altogether but that process can be speeded up by removing it from our schools. I would go further and teach children the truth. 

If there are religious groups that don't approve of their children being taught facts then I would suggest they relocate. 

[Naturalcynic 673]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

On the contrary. 100 years ago nearly everyone believed in God. Now it's less than 50% so thankfully religion is starting to die. Give it another 100 years and it should be dead altogether but that process can be speeded up by removing it from our schools. I would go further and teach children the truth. 

If there are religious groups that don't approve of their children being taught facts then I would suggest they relocate. 

Allowing it to (hopefully) gradually wither on the vine of its own accord over the next 100 years might be wishful thinking as not all religions allow their followers to fall by the wayside in the manner that Christianity clearly does.

[dylanisabaddog 4,998]

11 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Allowing it to (hopefully) gradually wither on the vine of its own accord over the next 100 years might be wishful thinking as not all religions allow their followers to fall by the wayside in the manner that Christianity clearly does.

My sister is an evangelical Christian. Only last week she told me that Muslims should stay in their part of the world and leave our country to Christians. I pointed out that she's now in the minority and asked where she was thinking of moving. I do try not to upset her but it's difficult sometimes. She really doesn't grasp the fact that she is effectively preaching hatred. 

Anyway, enough of my family problems. Your point about non Christian religions may well be valid. But I remain of the view that these strange people with their bizarre outdated and fanciful beliefs shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the running of our country. And we certainly shouldn't have that nonsense anywhere near our education system. 

[king canary 7,679]

11 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Criticising the expansionist policies of Israel isn’t anti-semitic but calling for Israel and its population to be removed from the map almost certainly is and using Palestine as a pretext for targeting Jews in the UK definitely is.  In the same way, pointing out the threat to our civilisation from Islamism isn’t Islamophobic, whereas calling for all Muslims to be deported, for example, clearly is.  I’m sure you can see the difference.

I agree with this but in my view Anderson crossed into the second part by specifically linking it to Khan and his 'mates.'

There is certainly a threat from extremeist Islamists, you only have to look at Tower Hamlets and their political ****show to see how the religion can be politically weaponised. However Khan isn't of that ilk at all and Anderson claiming he is giving London over to his mates crosses a line in that it basically says Khan is a Muslim so must be Islamist.

[king canary 7,679]

16 hours ago, Herman said:

Thanks. I am very sceptical of a well known left-wing journal and very left-wing journalists using, repeating or amplifying right wing talking points. Something seems off to me and I feel that it is all done to drive a wedge between the populace even further. I could be just paranoid, stuck in a historical past or simply wrong but I will still feel they are up to no good.

I don't think it is anything that sinister- Spiked are just useful idiot grifters who've seen there is a career to be made in the anti-woke sphere. There influence is minimal and they basically are the Novara Media of the libertarian right. 

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

40 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

My sister is an evangelical Christian. Only last week she told me that Muslims should stay in their part of the world and leave our country to Christians. I pointed out that she's now in the minority and asked where she was thinking of moving. I do try not to upset her but it's difficult sometimes. She really doesn't grasp the fact that she is effectively preaching hatred. 

Anyway, enough of my family problems. Your point about non Christian religions may well be valid. But I remain of the view that these strange people with their bizarre outdated and fanciful beliefs shouldn't be allowed to interfere with the running of our country. And we certainly shouldn't have that nonsense anywhere near our education system. 

Education and the emancipation of women is the nemesis of organized religion. That said there seems to be a throw back occasionally like the Evangelical Christians you mention (c.f States) that swim against  the tide. Some people just need to believe in something greater, a deity/deities or of fate itself greater than themselves. True of all peoples and cultures. 

[king canary 7,679]

12 hours ago, Aggy said:

Another separate point though, but with Anderson, my guess is he is expecting not to be re-elected and is now trying to become some sort of new Katie Hopkins to try and still be ‘relevant’ this time next year…. 

I think this is nail on the head with Anderson- at this point he's clearly angling to move full time into GB News type right wing talking head. 

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

22 minutes ago, king canary said:

I agree with this but in my view Anderson crossed into the second part by specifically linking it to Khan and his 'mates.'

There is certainly a threat from extremeist Islamists, you only have to look at Tower Hamlets and their political ****show to see how the religion can be politically weaponised. However Khan isn't of that ilk at all and Anderson claiming he is giving London over to his mates crosses a line in that it basically says Khan is a Muslim so must be Islamist.

Surely the issue with Anderson and his ilk is the nuanced normally unspoken message they send / telegraph. Linking as you point out the Islamic extremists to extend to cover all Muslims, all 'pro-Palestinian' demonstrators, 'Khan and his mates'. Its simply a hatred - Islamophobia of the worst kind and yes needs calling / rooting out in these right wing parties int exactly the same manner as SKS did in Labour with antisemitism intentional or otherwise. There should be no room for those that wish to flirt with it.

[dylanisabaddog 4,998]

Just to be clear, am I allowed to despair equally of all religious groups? Actually, I used to despair of them but that has slowly but surely turned into an active dislike. I am totally and utterly sick of listening to them hating each other on a daily basis. 

 

[king canary 7,679]

10 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Surely the issue with Anderson and his ilk is the nuanced normally unspoken message they send / telegraph. Linking as you point out the Islamic extremists to extend to cover all Muslims, all 'pro-Palestinian' demonstrators, 'Khan and his mates'. Its simply a hatred - Islamophobia of the worst kind and yes needs calling / rooting out in these right wing parties int exactly the same manner as SKS did in Labour with antisemitism intentional or otherwise. There should be no room for those that wish to flirt with it.

I think there are lines- I'm not sure Braverman saying 'Islamist mobs' are taking over parts of society is Islamaphobic in itself. It isn't the kind of language I expect from a politician but also it isn't directed at all Muslims and it does, unfortunately, have more than a grain of truth about- as someone who lived in Tower Hamlets under Lutfer Rahmen I know first hand. 

I think when we get into ideas of 'unspoken messages' we have issues. Because simply any suggestion of a problem with Islamist groups in this country can and will be read by those who hate muslims as an excuse to further that hate. But you can't just not address the issue for fear of stirring up others- that would be the same rationale some would use for shutting down pro palestine protests.

 

[TheGunnShow 6,017]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

On the contrary. 100 years ago nearly everyone believed in God. Now it's less than 50% so thankfully religion is starting to die. Give it another 100 years and it should be dead altogether but that process can be speeded up by removing it from our schools. I would go further and teach children the truth. 

If there are religious groups that don't approve of their children being taught facts then I would suggest they relocate. 

I'd say that's precisely what Sunday schools are for if parents are that concerned about giving kids the religious nuts and bolts. But I'd be perfectly happy with scrapping RE from the curriculum and putting other subjects back in. Latin would be my choice as the link between learning Latin and developing linguistic capability looks increasingly solid, or maybe even more sport/PE.

(As you can imagine, I'm not really a fan of faith schools. I accept that they'll not be abolished any time soon, but I'd be happy if they were).

[king canary 7,679]

30 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

I'd say that's precisely what Sunday schools are for if parents are that concerned about giving kids the religious nuts and bolts. But I'd be perfectly happy with scrapping RE from the curriculum and putting other subjects back in. Latin would be my choice as the link between learning Latin and developing linguistic capability looks increasingly solid, or maybe even more sport/PE.

(As you can imagine, I'm not really a fan of faith schools. I accept that they'll not be abolished any time soon, but I'd be happy if they were).

Wouldn't be a fan of removing RE (although it could maybe be renamed?). I don't like religion but it isn't going away soon and giving children a better understanding of the customs and cultures of the various faiths can help build understanding. RE is basically unrecognisable from what it previously (ie a chance to promote Christianity).

[TheGunnShow 6,017]

Just now, king canary said:

Wouldn't be a fan of removing RE (although it could maybe be renamed?). I don't like religion but it isn't going away soon and giving children a better understanding of the customs and cultures of the various faiths can help build understanding. RE is basically unrecognisable from what it previously (ie a chance to promote Christianity).

That's precisely why you have Sunday Schools, IMO. If it's that important for parents to impart that on their kids, then why not let them explore it at an establishment that explicitly focuses on it at their own pace?

[king canary 7,679]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

That's precisely why you have Sunday Schools, IMO. If it's that important for parents to impart that on their kids, then why not let them explore it at an establishment that explicitly focuses on it at their own pace?

No it isn't? Sunday schools are about learning about your own religion. Maybe there has been a massive change but I never learned about Muslim or Hindu traditions and customs in Sunday School- I learned about bible stories and why Jesus was great.

Without RE I would have had no exposure to what a Hindu or a Buddhist believes, or what Ramadan is. Especially growing up in rural Suffolk where you basically never met someone of these faiths. 

[TheGunnShow 6,017]

2 minutes ago, king canary said:

No it isn't? Sunday schools are about learning about your own religion. Maybe there has been a massive change but I never learned about Muslim or Hindu traditions and customs in Sunday School- I learned about bible stories and why Jesus was great.

Without RE I would have had no exposure to what a Hindu or a Buddhist believes, or what Ramadan is. Especially growing up in rural Suffolk where you basically never met someone of these faiths. 

I definitely caught odd bits here and there, but growing up in Bolton means you'd often find quite a few religions together, and we've had a noticeable minority from the Asian sub-continent here for as long as I can remember. If you're curious enough, it wasn't difficult to find out more up here.

I'll accept what you're saying in much more homogeneous areas though, but up here such isolation is a bit difficult to grasp.

[horsefly 4,318]

16 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

it is the conflation of a handful of extremists with the greater body that causes all the problems.

Sadly, some like Anderson, Braverman etc. seem all to willing to make that leap for their own purposes.  

Spot on! It is precisely this tactic that Anderson and his apologists are attempting today. Anderson has claimed his wording was merely "clumsy", and accusations that he was being Islamophobic is just the establishment seeking to silence discussion about the threat that fundamentalist Islamists pose to the country. This is, of course, utterly disingenuous BS. Anderson's words were a very carefully chosen attempt to paint Khan as an Islamist or Islamist sympathiser. He has long spouted his hatred of Khan on Twitter/X and has explicitly campaigned to get him ousted at the next mayoral election. This Islamophobic attack on Khan was a very carefully worded and direct attempt to prosecute that campaign by using a vile conflation of his Muslim identity with Islamist fundamentalist aims.

No one is attempting to prevent discussion of the problems raised by Islamic fundamentalist extremism. Ironically, the real barrier to making that discussion possible is the attempt by the likes of Anderson and his ilk to identify all Muslims as being complicit in supporting fundamentalist Islamist aims. The debate becomes possible when it is recognised that the majority of Muslims want to live cooperatively and in peace with the rest of UK society. The key is to empower those moderate Muslims, not drive them into isolation and silence as Anderson and his mob do with their divisive rhetoric. I lived in the West Midlands for around 23-years, 11 of those with a Sikh family as one neighbour, and a Muslim family the other. We all got on brilliantly. Both families were devout, but neither were remotely fundamentalist in their treatment or respect for others not of their faith. Similarly, when teaching an Enlightenment module to a very culturally diverse university class I never encountered a single problem in discussing how the principle of freedom of thought central to enlightenment thinking was orthogonal to any form of religious or political fundamentalism. Discussion of the evils of fundamentalist thinking is made relatively easy when you invite all to participate as equals in a debate in which toleration of the tolerant is the guiding principle. It's a discussion that should be happening in every school in the country. However, when Muslims see people like Anderson (Braverman etc) attempting to paint a moderate Muslim like Khan as an extremist fundamentalist, then such discussion becomes impossible. 

Edited February 27 by horsefly

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

Thought this item this morning was perceptive. Two sides of the same coin.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/28/islamophobia-antisemitism-uk-politics-grim-symmetry

[dylanisabaddog 4,998]

33 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Thought this item this morning was perceptive. Two sides of the same coin.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/28/islamophobia-antisemitism-uk-politics-grim-symmetry

He makes some valid points but the last sentence sums up my problem. He is "tired" of having his religion used against him. I don't care which particular religion he is but I'm tired of being preached to by people who have an imaginary friend in the sky.

I was told on a Facebook group yesterday that my views are "offensive" to religious people. They are murdering each other on an enormous scale in the Middle East but get offended if I point out that there is no God. You couldn't make it up. 

Edited February 28 by dylanisabaddog

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

Explains quite a lot....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

[Naturalcynic 673]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Explains quite a lot....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/28/more-than-half-of-tory-members-in-poll-say-islam-a-threat-to-british-way-of-life

And evidence suggests they’d probably be right.  By the way, if you want an objective view I’d advise a degree of caution regarding anything put out by the left-wing activist group Hope not Hate.  They exist to whip up Guardian readers into a hate-filled frenzy.

Edited February 28 by Naturalcynic

[dylanisabaddog 4,998]

13 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

And evidence suggests they’d probably be right.  By the way, if you want an objective view I’d advise a degree of caution regarding anything put out by the left-wing activist group Hope not Hate.  They exist to whip up Guardian readers into a hate-filled frenzy.

Guardian readers in hate filled frenzy alert. 

Be careful out there folks, one of them may give you a disapproving look