Tata Steel

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

Sad news for Port Talbot.

My real concern is that with the imminent loss of ALL UK blast furnaces we loose the ability to make new 'virgin' steel.  The only G20 country so to do.

Historically, the ability to make virgin steel was of real strategic importance - for our defense industries and so on. Has that changed in a world where defense is becoming important again?  I suppose wafer fabs may be the new 'steel' (many billions each). I suppose we can always buy from the EU if not China 😉

My instinct is that the trade union model made some sense to keep one such furnace operational into the 2030s.

Thoughts? 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

I suppose without the blast furnaces we don't need that Whitehaven anthracite mine in Cumbria either ?

Seems it's lost its main proposed customer.

[Nik Vawn 140]

This decision could come back to bite us, we have had enough examples of the weakness of global supply chains in recent history, the ability to make our own virgin steel is crucial in a world where threats against our national security and way of life are growing by the day.

On a local level absolute devastation for this part of the Swansea valleys.

[The Real Buh 3,477]

If you can’t make your own steel you aren’t a first world country

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

1 hour ago, Nik Vawn said:

This decision could come back to bite us, we have had enough examples of the weakness of global supply chains in recent history, the ability to make our own virgin steel is crucial in a world where threats against our national security and way of life are growing by the day.

On a local level absolute devastation for this part of the Swansea valleys.

I agree - so what's changed from 2022?

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/uk-steel-safeguard-international-trade-secretarys-statement-29-june-2022

 

[Foxy2600 305]

Imagine, WW3 kicks off and Just Stop Oil decide we have to save the World!

Meanwhile…. 30,000 High Explosive shells, missiles, incendiary’s rain down on Eastern Ukraine

I was thinking of protesting to the UN.

Guess what?

[Fen Canary 861]

4 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I agree - so what's changed from 2022?

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/uk-steel-safeguard-international-trade-secretarys-statement-29-june-2022

 

The more people start to see the effects such as these of chasing Net Zero, the more public sentiment will turn against it. Forcing working class people into job losses to appease a noisy middle class minority interest simply isn’t sustainable in the long run.

Where are all these well paid jobs from a green revolution we were promised would arrive? Instead we’re seeing workers thrown on the scrap heap, driving around our cities becoming ruinously expensive and the nations key industries such as steel making and energy production/extraction being left in foreign hands. 

[Nik Vawn 140]

9 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

The more people start to see the effects such as these of chasing Net Zero, the more public sentiment will turn against it. Forcing working class people into job losses to appease a noisy middle class minority interest simply isn’t sustainable in the long run.

Where are all these well paid jobs from a green revolution we were promised would arrive? Instead we’re seeing workers thrown on the scrap heap, driving around our cities becoming ruinously expensive and the nations key industries such as steel making and energy production/extraction being left in foreign hands. 

I fear net zero is a smokescreen in this one

[Fen Canary 861]

4 minutes ago, Nik Vawn said:

I fear net zero is a smokescreen in this one

Port Talbot steelworks: Tata workers left stranded, say campaigners https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68030260
 

Not according to the BBC, it’s a direct result of the move to greener steel

[Nik Vawn 140]

5 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Port Talbot steelworks: Tata workers left stranded, say campaigners https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-68030260
 

Not according to the BBC, it’s a direct result of the move to greener steel

I’m not sure the BBC expressed a view. As for the concerns of TATA to reduce the UK’s net emission, whilst laudable, I fear they may lack sincerity, a bit like their proposed “ meaningful discussions” with the trade unions over a transition pathway!

”Tata UK said its plans were "intended to reverse more than a decade of losses"

[Herman 9,819]

28 minutes ago, Nik Vawn said:

I fear net zero is a smokescreen in this one

I feel you are nearer the truth than some would like to admit. If you take the emotions out of it then it makes perfect economic and long term sense for Tata to reduce the work force with far more efficient machinery. 

[A Load of Squit 5,208]

8 minutes ago, Herman said:

I feel you are nearer the truth than some would like to admit. If you take the emotions out of it then it makes perfect economic and long term sense for Tata to reduce the work force with far more efficient machinery. 

Some reports say that Tata are losing about £1m a day!

[Herman 9,819]

3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Some reports say that Tata are losing about £1m a day!

A private company will only put up with that for so long, even with government subsidies and help. 

 

[Nik Vawn 140]

18 minutes ago, Herman said:

A private company will only put up with that for so long, even with government subsidies and help. 

 

Absolutely and that’s fair enough, but don’t let’s hide a commercial decision behind net zero. Just imagining the scenes. “Thatcher destroys British coal industry to save the planet”

Not a huge fan of Nationalising industries but what we have left of our steel production needs to be cared for and developed strategically, I don’t expect Tata to do that for us but having said that they have been given £0.5 billion of our cash.

Having worked in a steelworks as a young lad, it’s not a job many would chose, that’s for sure, but we should appreciate the work these men and women do.

Edited January 20 by Nik Vawn

[Herman 9,819]

50 minutes ago, Nik Vawn said:

Absolutely and that’s fair enough, but don’t let’s hide a commercial decision behind net zero. Just imagining the scenes. “Thatcher destroys British coal industry to save the planet”

Not a huge fan of Nationalising industries but what we have left of our steel production needs to be cared for and developed strategically, I don’t expect Tata to do that for us but having said that they have been given £0.5 billion of our cash.

Having worked in a steelworks as a young lad, it’s not a job many would chose, that’s for sure, but we should appreciate the work these men and women do.

I am not in disagreement with you NV. My major concern, like most, is how this is handled for the people whose jobs are on the line. I hope we learned from the mining communities disaster. 

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

1 hour ago, Nik Vawn said:

Absolutely and that’s fair enough, but don’t let’s hide a commercial decision behind net zero. Just imagining the scenes. “Thatcher destroys British coal industry to save the planet”

Not a huge fan of Nationalising industries but what we have left of our steel production needs to be cared for and developed strategically, I don’t expect Tata to do that for us but having said that they have been given £0.5 billion of our cash.

Having worked in a steelworks as a young lad, it’s not a job many would chose, that’s for sure, but we should appreciate the work these men and women do.

My concern is what is the 'strategic' national interest in maintaining a minimum virgin steel production facility when in a more dangerous, with the USA probably isolationist, world. It's right up there with our own nuclear deterrent in allowing us to act independently without going cap in hand to our neighbors.

I bet France or Germany wouldn't close the last of any such facilities.

All in all it smacks of a lack of ANY post Brexit industrial policy - indeed is a further loss of control and sovereignty of critical materials for short term commercial gain.

 

[Nik Vawn 140]

29 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

My concern is what is the 'strategic' national interest in maintaining a minimum virgin steel production facility when in a more dangerous, with the USA probably isolationist, world. It's right up there with our own nuclear deterrent in allowing us to act independently without going cap in hand to our neighbors.

I bet France or Germany wouldn't close the last of any such facilities.

All in all it smacks of a lack of ANY post Brexit industrial policy - indeed is a further loss of control and sovereignty of critical materials for short term commercial gain.

 

Yep, with such a totally inept and divided government we have no chance of strategic thinking on anything. When they spend their time jumping from fire to fire waving a hosepipe around what hope is there for any long term planning.

[A Load of Squit 5,208]

We should've listened to Nigel.

[Creative Midfielder 2,001]

18 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Where are all these well paid jobs from a green revolution we were promised would arrive? Instead we’re seeing workers thrown on the scrap heap, driving around our cities becoming ruinously expensive and the nations key industries such as steel making and energy production/extraction being left in foreign hands. 

They will arrive when the green revolution gets underway - as far as the UK is concerned we are still waiting for that and we are waiting as a direct result of Tory Government policy which has stalled major green projects whilst continuing to blow huge amounts of taxpayer cash in massive tax breaks to oil and gas producers.

This is not just crazy from a climate perspective, it is crazy economics and very damaging to the future prosperity of this country.

So as to when the green revolution gets going in the UK, I suppose we have to hope that Labour after the next election will make some progress but realistically, whilst they can't fail to be an improvement on the idiot Sunak and his useless predecessors, given the very deep hole the Tories have dug for our economy and the fact that we are already lagging so far behind all our major competitors in green technology and its deployment, it is going to be very difficult for them to make a major impact whilst simultaneously trying to fix virtually all our public services which have either been striped to the bone or actually broken by the Tories.

 

[Fen Canary 861]

44 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

They will arrive when the green revolution gets underway - as far as the UK is concerned we are still waiting for that and we are waiting as a direct result of Tory Government policy which has stalled major green projects whilst continuing to blow huge amounts of taxpayer cash in massive tax breaks to oil and gas producers.

This is not just crazy from a climate perspective, it is crazy economics and very damaging to the future prosperity of this country.

So as to when the green revolution gets going in the UK, I suppose we have to hope that Labour after the next election will make some progress but realistically, whilst they can't fail to be an improvement on the idiot Sunak and his useless predecessors, given the very deep hole the Tories have dug for our economy and the fact that we are already lagging so far behind all our major competitors in green technology and its deployment, it is going to be very difficult for them to make a major impact whilst simultaneously trying to fix virtually all our public services which have either been striped to the bone or actually broken by the Tories.

 

We’ll wait and see, you’re much more optimistic than me about this green revolution leading to well paid jobs, especially for those who will lose theirs as a result.

From what I can see the biggest beneficiary will be China. We’ll decimate our oil and gas industries and China will manufacture all the renewables, all while building coal fired power plants themselves.

Germany has already severely damaged its manufacturing base because of its lack of cheap energy due to its green policies and I can see Britain doing the same. I’ve no problem transitioning to greener technology as it becomes available, but we shouldn’t be hurting the living standards of people to do so 

[Creative Midfielder 2,001]

12 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

We’ll wait and see, you’re much more optimistic than me about this green revolution leading to well paid jobs, especially for those who will lose theirs as a result.

Fair enough but I would point out that my optimism is based on the experience of being of part of a start-up renewables company started in 2008 with half a dozen employees and by late 2011 was employing just shy of 3,000 - shame that Cameron's 'greenest ever government' then almost completely killed off the UK renewables industry (about the only sector of the economy that was showing any growth at all at the time) and drove most renewables businesses into liquidation resulting in 40,000 - 50,000 job losses.

From what I can see the biggest beneficiary will be China. We’ll decimate our oil and gas industries and China will manufacture all the renewables, all while building coal fired power plants themselves.

Well they are also installing massive amounts of wind and solar which last year far outweighed the new coal fired plants which are being seriously scaled back, not least because the renewables are much cheaper. But you are right they will be the biggest beneficiary because they had the foresight and long term strategy to position themselves to become the dominant supplier of not just renewables but the other important technologies of the future such as energy storage and EVs, and they have succeeded whilst many western countries and especially the US & UK have tried to keep the old and increasingly expensive carbon technologies and are now hopelessly adrift in the renewable technologies. Obviously the US is now spending a huge amount in an attempt to catch up but I suspect they will have very limited success (and of course will give up completely again if Trump wins).

Germany has already severely damaged its manufacturing base because of its lack of cheap energy due to its green policies and I can see Britain doing the same. I’ve no problem transitioning to greener technology as it becomes available, but we shouldn’t be hurting the living standards of people to do so.

The damage to the German manufacturing base has nothing to do with it transitioning to greener policies (which started long before the UK and the German economy continued to boom) and everything to do with the fact that despite their green policies they still had a huge dependence of cheap Russian gas which came to an abrupt halt with the invasion of Ukraine.

As far as the UK is concerned it is precisely because we haven't transitioned sufficiently to renewables that our standard of living is being hit - solar and wind are both substantially cheaper sources of energy than gas or oil and yet this government continues to block their growth whilst giving huge tax breaks to multinationals to drill for more gas and oil - absolute economic madness and something that is costing every household in the country hundreds of pounds of extra cost in their energy bills.

 

 

[Naturalcynic 649]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

As far as the UK is concerned it is precisely because we haven't transitioned sufficiently to renewables that our standard of living is being hit - solar and wind are both substantially cheaper sources of energy than gas or oil and yet this government continues to block their growth whilst giving huge tax breaks to multinationals to drill for more gas and oil - absolute economic madness and something that is costing every household in the country hundreds of pounds of extra cost in their energy bills.

If you really want to add hundreds of pounds to energy bills, then do as the activists want and just stop oil.  And surely curtailing the dirty polluting steel industry is exactly the sort of thing the environmental lobby would, or at least should, approve of.

[sonyc 5,541]

22 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

If you really want to add hundreds of pounds to energy bills, then do as the activists want and just stop oil.  And surely curtailing the dirty polluting steel industry is exactly the sort of thing the environmental lobby would, or at least should, approve of.

It is always a balance isn't it? Same as the coal industry, slate etc...especially raw materials. I think you need to have a long term plan (and one that is decades in the planning) so that you know an area won't be decimated because it is so dependent. If an area has natural resources and as a country you decide to invest, then it must that a government (successive governments) think about the thousands employed not to mention the huge supply chains. I realise it's a challenge. Yet, to go suddenly from job to no job and find the whole local economy is flooded with colleagues is disheartening beyond belief. There needs to be investment in new skills. Creative Midfielder has mentioned that in his post. It is about the difficult job of managing and transitioning your regions. So many northern towns and cities have struggled to recover after cotton and wool industries scaled down. Look at some of the Welsh valley towns and you see they are hollowed out, their economic use greatly denuded when the money went elsewhere.

In an ideal world (for me anyway), every town ought to have a purpose for which it is known (high tech, defence industry, cultural or even retail expertise...and so on, the list is endless) and in such a way they would be more cherished (and protected?). Also, that towns are encouraged to be creative, entrepreneurial if you like. 

Our system (and values set as a country) is always the short term. People don't want to pay taxes now for a brighter future tomorrow for their children and more so their grandchildren. That's where we are in a 'now' society.

 

Edited January 21 by sonyc

[A Load of Squit 5,208]

Should've listened to Boris.

 

[Foxy2600 305]

Just Stop Oil!! 

10 million tonnes of UK sourced metal recycling goes to countries that ignore Carbon Zero targets