Coach prices for away games

[YellowSubmarine 39]

It’s all Webber! Blame him!

[Mello Yello 2,298]

.."All aboard!"..'Ensure you wear thrombosis socks, it's a 40 minute flight'..

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

On 18/01/2024 at 07:01, Jim Smith said:

I note it’s £56 for the coach to Liverpool and was £53 last night.

it’s been a long time since I went on the club coaches to an away game but that seems a lot. Is that typical for a distant away trip?

Does it cost £3k to hire s coach for the day to Liverpool and back?

I think you'd be looking at about £1500 to hire a coach for that journey. Which is an understandable price when you consider that the driver wants paying for a 14-15 hour day and one of those coaches does about 6 miles per gallon of diesel, that would leave about ££700-£750 in gross profit for the operator but from that they need to cover wear and tear, maintenance, insurance, and other BAU expenses.

So at £3000 it seems the club wants to take about £1500 themselves, for which they do not much more than sell you the ticket and print a passenger list. That appears to be the problem here, the club ripping off the fans again, bit of a slap in the face when they will already be getting half of the gate receipts and half of any global TV revenue. 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

On 18/01/2024 at 19:40, Capt. Pants said:

£56 doesn't sound that bad in this day an age imo. 

There is a lot of profit for the club built into that price.

If the club were to run these coaches on a profit neutral basis you'd be looking at £28-£32 per passenger for that journey on a full coach.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that the club shouldn't attempt to make a healthy profit on running these services, but for a cup game they are getting half of the gate receipts. Not just from your ticket but every ticket sold to home games too. Its a bit cheeky when some fans have paid a fortune to go and see us fail to beat Bristol Rovers away and then spent more money on the replay at home.

It would seem to me to have been a decent opportunity to make a nice gesture.

[JamieNorfolk 62]

On 18/01/2024 at 11:07, king canary said:

I always found this so odd. Why even bother with a discount if it is that little?

You have to spend £20 in the club shop to get it too, I got a scarf and a calander that came to 19.99 - had to buy a £1 pen to qualify for £2 off lol

[Yobocop 1,105]

On 18/01/2024 at 10:54, Feedthewolf said:

Quite. Free coach travel for, say, 4,000 fans at £56 a pop adds up to (checks calculator) £224k.

Cheapest way to do it would be to take a car with at least four people in it... let's say a 500-mile round trip, probably about £100 worth of fuel. 

Not all 4,000 fans would come by coach, not all 4,000 would come from Norwich.

most coaches have what 50 capacity? They’d need to find 80 coaches, Sanders have a fleet of 88 coaches however some of those will be being used for other purposes and local routes. 

For the OP - cost of living has gone up and Liverpool ain’t round the corner 

 

[NewNestCarrow 202]

On 19/01/2024 at 20:20, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

There is a lot of profit for the club built into that price.

If the club were to run these coaches on a profit neutral basis you'd be looking at £28-£32 per passenger for that journey on a full coach.

I'm not necessarily suggesting that the club shouldn't attempt to make a healthy profit on running these services, but for a cup game they are getting half of the gate receipts. Not just from your ticket but every ticket sold to home games too. Its a bit cheeky when some fans have paid a fortune to go and see us fail to beat Bristol Rovers away and then spent more money on the replay at home.

It would seem to me to have been a decent opportunity to make a nice gesture.

From most recent Fans’ Forum: “The club confirmed that it makes no profit from its away coaches and sometimes makes a small loss.”

Are you sticking with your allegation of profiteering by the club on organised travel?

 

[Year of the tiger 54]

I'll repost what I've put on the osp minutes thread which is relevant to this thread

6 minutes ago, Year of the tiger said:

Interesting on away coach travel it was suggested that a previous discount scheme could be reintroduced? Very strange that the panel, supporters& staff appear unaware that you get a free coach trip with 10 stubs which applies to all travellers, season ticket holders or others. 

 

[FenwayFrank 2,461]

So I can still use this ? 😜

 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

6 hours ago, NewNestCarrow said:

From most recent Fans’ Forum: “The club confirmed that it makes no profit from its away coaches and sometimes makes a small loss.”

Are you sticking with your allegation of profiteering by the club on organised travel?

I don't think I claimed that the club is making a significant profit from coach travel in general, across an entire season, you would then have to factor in occupancy levels and I presume they would need to forecast away attendances and book coaches in advance which they subsequently don't fill on occasion, with a subsequent penalty, Swansea away for example there were said to be fewer than 300 people there. It is fully conceivable that the club might have expected to sell out say 4 coaches and ended up filling 2 while being on the hook for 2 that were stuck in Norwich.

I was really only commenting on the Liverpool game in isolation, and stand by what I think the price of those coaches would have been to the club and their subsequent gross margin. For some context, my uncle owns a Suffolk coach company, which he inherited from my grandad, and my dad was still driving the odd coach up to his retirement 18 months ago. The estimate I provided was up to date.

If the clubs argument is that they don't make a profit on this a service across an entire season then I've got no grounds on which to dispute that and it could well be true (and with the wild fluctuations in away attendances this season, and the likelihood is that they have to book coaches well ahead of time, probably is).

 

[Jim Smith 2,339]

They probably include the old private jet in the “away travel costs” part of the accounts which leads to a loss! I’ve always wondered who picks up the bill for that little luxury. 

[Branston Pickle 3,675]

It’s pretty clear to me that some have absolutely no idea whatsoever how much it costs to run coach trips these days, despite claiming otherwise.  They are not cheap and i know for a fact that some schools are travelling for trips by train as it can work out cheaper. 

Edited February 16 by Branston Pickle

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

7 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

It’s pretty clear to me that some have absolutely no idea whatsoever how much it costs to run coach trips these days, despite claiming otherwise.  They are not cheap and i know for a fact that some schools are travelling for trips by train as it can work out cheaper. 

Phone a coach company then on Monday morning, ask for a quote for a 50-seater with driver from Norwich to Liverpool and back in one day, on a Saturday.

Bet it will be within 10% either side of the £1500 I stated.

[RobJames 883]

On 19/01/2024 at 20:12, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

I think you'd be looking at about £1500 to hire a coach for that journey. Which is an understandable price when you consider that the driver wants paying for a 14-15 hour day and one of those coaches does about 6 miles per gallon of diesel, that would leave about ££700-£750 in gross profit for the operator but from that they need to cover wear and tear, maintenance, insurance, and other BAU expenses.

So at £3000 it seems the club wants to take about £1500 themselves, for which they do not much more than sell you the ticket and print a passenger list. That appears to be the problem here, the club ripping off the fans again, bit of a slap in the face when they will already be getting half of the gate receipts and half of any global TV revenue. 

That presumes there is no VAT on tickets. I believe there is, so instead of being £56 the operator would receive £45

No driver does 14-15 hours, their limit is 9 hours a day, so two drivers, double the cost. The driver's cost is not just his gross pay, it has to include employer's NI, holiday pay, sick pay and any public liability. There is also the thought (Liverpool) that cost might increase for a Sunday journey

It also presumes every coach is full

 

As to the club 'ripping off fans' that is another smear. No one is requiring fans to use these coaches, the charges are advertised before ticket purchase

Edited February 16 by RobJames

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

12 minutes ago, RobJames said:

That presumes there is no VAT on tickets. I believe there is, so instead of being £56 the operator would receive £45

But there is also VAT collected by the coach provider.

So £1500 including VAT, and £3000 including VAT, would maintain exactly the same gross margin. The club does not pay £11 in VAT in this scenario, as they would deduct the £5.50 already collected.

I may actually be cheeky and request a quote from somebody on Monday to see if I've got my estimates correct. If £1500 is well wide of the mark I'll put my hands up and acknowledge as such.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

It’s pretty clear to me that some have absolutely no idea whatsoever how much it costs to run coach trips these days, despite claiming otherwise.  They are not cheap and i know for a fact that some schools are travelling for trips by train as it can work out cheaper. 

Its pretty easy for us to examine whether our coach prices are high by keeping an eye on what other clubs charge their fans for their return fixtures. If we were priced fairly then you'd expect the coach from Norwich to Plymouth to be not too differently priced as the amount charged by Plymouth for the coach to Norwich.

I'm short of time, a couple here though:

West Brom charged their fans £30 to travel to Carrow Road, we charged our fans £34 to travel to Hawthorns.

Southampton charged their fans £40,95 to travel to Carrow Road, we charged our fans £45 to get to Southampton.

So we aren't too far out of kilter with other clubs, although possibly consistently about 10% over, which could well just be a lack of competition in the local market.

Edited February 16 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[Branston Pickle 3,675]

1 hour ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Phone a coach company then on Monday morning, ask for a quote for a 50-seater with driver from Norwich to Liverpool and back in one day, on a Saturday.

Bet it will be within 10% either side of the £1500 I stated.

No thanks.  I don’t need to, as a) don’t intend on travelling to Liverpool by coach (particularly from Norwich as I live 160 miles away), and b) I don’t actually care that much.  
The point is you are trying to claim the club runs coaches to make a profit, I don’t think that’s the case and they also say they don’t.

Edited February 16 by Branston Pickle

[RobJames 883]

1 hour ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

So we aren't too far out of kilter with other clubs, although possibly consistently about 10% over, which could well just be a lack of competition in the local market.

So by those two clubs there is no 'rip off'. And you do not know what Saunders charges in comparison to other companies elsewhere.

 

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

1 hour ago, Branston Pickle said:

The point is you are trying to claim the club runs coaches to make a profit, I don’t think that’s the case and they also say they don’t.

We are talking about the same club that launched the VIP Away Day experience using the first team home coach aren't we?

If they don't attempt to make a profit why do the club charge more than other teams for away travel? That leads to more questions that in answers really, if they are altruistically running a profit-neutral enterprise as you claim, then who is doing a terrible job procuring coaches at a higher price than other teams in the division? 

£208 more per 52 seater coach is generated by Norwich City for West Brom away than is generated by West Brom for the reverse fixture, and £210 per coach more is generated by Norwich City for Southampton away than is generated by Southampton for the reverse fixture.

Just found another one. Watford charged their fans £20 for a coach to Norwich, and Norwich charged our fans £32 for the reverse fixture. That's £624 more per 52 seater coach.

And Millwall charged their fans £25 each to get to Norwich on the coach, we charged ours £32 the other way. That's £364 more revenue per 52 seater coach.

So yes @NewNestCarrow I am sticking with that allegation, and yes @Branston Pickle I do believe that the club runs these coaches at a profit. So far the only example of a club charging their fans the same or more for the reverse fixture this season is Leeds United, who have famously always had sky high ticket prices.

Edited February 16 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

12 minutes ago, RobJames said:

So by those two clubs there is no 'rip off'. And you do not know what Saunders charges in comparison to other companies elsewhere.

Please see above, our prices seem to be consistently higher than the reverse fixture. What greater evidence do you need?

Edited February 16 by JonnyJonnyRowe

[Branston Pickle 3,675]

16 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

We are talking about the same club that launched the VIP Away Day experience using the first team home coach aren't we?

If they don't attempt to make a profit why do the club charge more than other teams for away travel? That leads to more questions that in answers really, if they are altruistically running a profit-neutral enterprise as you claim, then who is doing a terrible job procuring coaches at a higher price than other teams in the division? 

£208 more per 52 seater coach is generated by Norwich City for West Brom away than is generated by West Brom for the reverse fixture, and £210 per coach more is generated by Norwich City for Southampton away than is generated by Southampton for the reverse fixture.

Just found another one. Watford charged their fans £20 for a coach to Norwich, and Norwich charged our fans £32 for the reverse fixture. That's £624 more per 52 seater coach.

And Millwall charged their fans £25 each to get to Norwich on the coach, we charged ours £32 the other way. That's £364 more revenue per 52 seater coach.

So yes @NewNestCarrow I am sticking with that allegation, and yes @Branston Pickle I do believe that the club runs these coaches at a profit. So far the only example of a club charging their fans the same or more for the reverse fixture this season is Leeds United, who have famously always had sky high ticket prices.

Yawn, this is boring.

[JonnyJonnyRowe 451]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

Yawn, this is boring.

Presented with the clear evidence and then left with nowhere else to go you mean.

[Branston Pickle 3,675]

8 minutes ago, JonnyJonnyRowe said:

Presented with the clear evidence and then left with nowhere else to go you mean.

Absolutely the opposite…you appear to be naive to how things work in the real world, your “evidence” is half-baked at best.  You are trying to compare things like for like that aren’t: we played Millwall in the middle of Christmas week, in an evening, it’s not going to cost the same as a Saturday game in August.  It seems to me you are on a mission to prove something but don’t have even the slightest understanding of how things work, despite claiming to know everything.

Edit: Maybe you should start to prove your point by actually arranging some travel to games and showing how it can be done for less. That said, I personally don’t care much, as will never ever be in a position to use it. 

Edited February 16 by Branston Pickle