Please God no

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

4 minutes ago, nu_matik said:

Depends if you just dislike someone so badly you can't see current successes.

Maybe he won't just slot back into midfield with Sara or Nunez. 

Maybe we're just seeing him play well and it doesn't matter.

...but if you read this thread, I've acknowlesged that he's playing well in this position and praised Wagner for trying him there (you have read it? havent you?)

I dont think he's an effective midfielder any more and our midfield now looks better without him in it...simple as that

You're the one who seems to have an agenda here???

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Ian 1,130]

6 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I have 'conceived' notions of KM as a 'midfielder'  which are proving to be founded

As previously discussed, we couldnt have known how he would fare in this defensive role

This is like 'discussing' football with someone who has never watched football

Its disappointing

Are you truly arguing that a team which are shipping goals left right and center would try to accommodate a midfielder at CB just "because" he's left footed, despite the fact you say he is a very poor player?

Perhaps an alternative hypothesis is that Kenny is actually a very adaptable and intelligent footballer who all recent NCFC managers seem to rate?

It speaks volumes that rather than give the guy credit that our fortunes and results have massively improved despite him being in an alien role, you are trying to use this as justification that he's a poor midfielder, which just so happens to coincide with the fact that you have always slated him?

Your ad-hominens are genuinely laughable, and speak volumes to the fact you actually can't substantiate anything you say.

"i KnOw FoOtBaLL I'Ve BeEn WaTcHiNg It FoR DeCaDeS"

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

Are you truly arguing that a team which are shipping goals left right and center would try to accommodate a midfielder at CB just "because" he's left footed, despite the fact you say he is a very poor player?

Perhaps an alternative hypothesis is that Kenny is actually a very adaptable and intelligent footballer who all recent NCFC managers seem to rate?

It speaks volumes that rather than give the guy credit that our fortunes and results have massively improved despite him being in an alien role, you are trying to use this as justification that he's a poor midfielder, which just so happens to coincide with the fact that you have always slated him?

Your ad-hominens are genuinely laughable, and speak volumes to the fact you actually can't substantiate anything you say.

"i KnOw FoOtBaLL I'Ve BeEn WaTcHiNg It FoR DeCaDeS"

...or maybe he's playing better in defence than he was as a midfielder...  because he's actually just better at playing in that position now?

There's a thought

...but dont try to think about it too much, it seems quite diffucult

[nu_matik 167]

3 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

...but if you read this thread, I've acknowlesged that he's playing well in this position and praised Wagner for trying him there (you have read it? havent you?)

I dont think he's an effective midfielder any more and our midfield now looks better without him in it...simple as that

You're the one who seems to have an agenda here???

 

He's a good player. He has played well in midfield this season in amongst poor team performances of which were not his fault.

Kenny moved to CB not because he was poor in midfield, bur because our defence was poor and he's provided a decent option.

I feel its actually more of a conundrum of having several good midfielders and that neither Sara or Nunez were versatile enough to do what KM does so it doesn't really matter until he has to play in midfield again and something doesn't work - so maybe then have moan?

[Ian 1,130]

3 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

...or maybe he's playing better in defence than he was as a midfielder...  because he's actually just better at playing in that position now?

There's a thought

...but dont try to think about it too much, it seems quite diffucult

Not sure someone with such a myopic opinion should be accusing anybody else of finding it difficult to think about things.

I really like the balance of KM at CB and Nunez as a deep lying CM, but IMO this really isn't evidence Kenny is a poor midfielder, but in fact evidence he is an excellent and adaptable footballer at this level who can bring things to the squad other players can't.

It's really sad that you and others can't just hold your hands up and admit you are wrong about KM as a player, and instead double and triple down on this demonstrable ****.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

1 hour ago, nu_matik said:

He's a good player. He has played well in midfield this season in amongst poor team performances of which were not his fault.

Kenny moved to CB not because he was poor in midfield, bur because our defence was poor and he's provided a decent option.

I feel its actually more of a conundrum of having several good midfielders and that neither Sara or Nunez were versatile enough to do what KM does so it doesn't really matter until he has to play in midfield again and something doesn't work - so maybe then have moan?

As the midfielder who was sitting at the base of our midfield, just in front of our back 4,prior to this positional switch,I'd suggest he was playing badly as a major part of a midfueld who were being systematically carved open to the tune of conceding 20 chances per game resulting in our having the worst defence in the league. Now I dont believe our defenders are THAT poor in themselves.

By taking him out of that midfield and dropping back 10 , 20 yards has allowed him to read and anticipate the play in front if him rather than being part of a midfield constantly overrun...aswell as having the extra protection of the offside trap behind him

Hats off, its worked....so far

Edited December 24, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, Ian said:

It's really sad that you and others can't just hold your hands up and admit you are wrong about KM

Is it more or less sad than those who can't hold their hands up and admit they were wrong about him being essential to our midfield?

Moving him to CB was a smart move. Dropping him from CM was even smarter. No one was calling for the former, but those calling for the latter were spot on, weren't they? You can admit that, can't you?

Edited December 23, 2023 by canarydan23

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

8 minutes ago, Ian said:

Not sure someone with such a myopic opinion should be accusing anybody else of finding it difficult to think about things.

I really like the balance of KM at CB and Nunez as a deep lying CM, but IMO this really isn't evidence Kenny is a poor midfielder, but in fact evidence he is an excellent and adaptable footballer at this level who can bring things to the squad other players can't.

It's really sad that you and others can't just hold your hands up and admit you are wrong about KM as a player, and instead double and triple down on this demonstrable ****.

You need to distinguish between 'player' and 'midfielder' as you're quite cowardly moving the goal posts

My criticism is of him is as a midfielder...and still stands

...and as has now been previously mentiined twice, we couldnt have known how he would play in this defensive rols as we hadnt previously seen it

...and for that i have acknowledged that it has worked ..so far...and that he looks a better player there

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Ian 1,130]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Is it more or less sad than those who can't hold their hands up and admit they were wrong about him being essential to our midfield?

Moving him to CB was a smart move. Dropping him from CM was even smarter. No one was calling for the former, but those calling for the latter were spot on, weren't they? You can admit that, can't you?

I just genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make.

I've seen nobody suggest Kenny is absolutely essential to our midfield, but plenty who have pointed out that he has always done a consistent job there, and that he has been unfairly maligned as responsible for our poor defensive performance this season.

The argument that because he has now dropped back to CB in a totally alien position demonstrates he's a poor defensive midfielder is really very bizarre. Honestly what sort of logic dictates that because a poor defensive midfielder has been moved into a far more critical defensive position and done magnificently well, is proof he is **** defensively?

Clearly Kenny haters are willing to jump through as many hoops of congnitive dissonance as it takes so they don't have to admit they may be clueless.

 

 

 

[Ian 1,130]

8 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

You need to distinguish between 'player' and 'midfielder' as you're quite cowardly moving the goal posts

My criticism is of him is as a midfielder...and still stands

...and as has now been previously mentiined twice, we couldnt have known how he would play in this defensive rols as we hadnt previously seen it

...and for that i have acknowledged that it has worked ..so far...and that he loiks a better player there

🍺🍺🍺

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

7 minutes ago, Ian said:

I just genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make.

I've seen nobody suggest Kenny is absolutely essential to our midfield, but plenty who have pointed out that he has always done a consistent job there, and that he has been unfairly maligned as responsible for our poor defensive performance this season.

The argument that because he has now dropped back to CB in a totally alien position demonstrates he's a poor defensive midfielder is really very bizarre. Honestly what sort of logic dictates that because a poor defensive midfielder has been moved into a far more critical defensive position and done magnificently well, is proof he is **** defensively?

Clearly Kenny haters are willing to jump through as many hoops of congnitive dissonance as it takes so they don't have to admit they may be clueless.

 

 

 

Really doesnt see  the difference between a defender reading a game and a midfielder being overrun and being sliced open???

One of the best 'defenders' I saw play for us for reading a game was Dion Dublin....now do you think he could play in central midfield??

I think its time for your horlicks and bed

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[hogesar 9,676]

Ian and @nu_matik I commend you. Excellent posts.

[Ian 1,130]

12 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Really doesnt see  the difference between a defender reading a game and a midfielder being overrun and being sliced open???

One of the best 'defenders' I saw play for us for reading a game was Dion Dublin....now do you think he could play in central midfield??

I think its time for your horlicks and bed

WTF has DD got to do with whether Kenny is a decent CM, despite playing there at Prem, Championship and international level? Really quite demented.

Anybody who has watched any games in the last couple of seasons would see that Kenny is very often sitting between two CBs who are pushed wide, and also one of the few midfielders who actually does track midfielders back and screen the defence.

We have previously been utterly porous in midfield this season, but I just cannot comprehend those who think this is due to KM, and furthermore that his exceptional performances at CB are evidence he is culpable defensively.

Clearly you're so entrenched in your views you won't ever consider you could have misjudged him, so suggest we leave it there.

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ian

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

6 minutes ago, Ian said:

WTF has DD got to do with whether Kenny is a decent CM, despite playing there at Prem, Championship and international level? Really quite demented.

Anybody who has watched any games in the last couple of seasons would see that Kenny is very often sitting between two CBs who are pushed wide, and also one of the few midfielders who actually does track midfielders back and screen the defence.

We have previously been utterly porous in midfield this season, but I just cannot comprehend those who think this is due to KM.

 

"and also one of the few midfielders who actually does track midfielders back and screen the defence."

....and here is the problem, he wasnt doing a good enough job of it

See the 20 chances conceded per game and the worst defence in the league...up until about 6 games ago, when he switched position

 

..and what DD had got to do with it , is that you seem incapable of the distinction that exists between the skills required for a central defender to that of a midfielder

 

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Ian 1,130]

2 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

"and also one of the few midfielders who actually does track midfielders back and screen the defence."

....and here is the problem, he wasnt doing a good enough job of it

See tge 20 chances conceded per game and the worst defence in the league...up until about 6 games ago, when he switched position

 

..and what DD had got to do with it , is that you seem incapable of the distinction that exists between the skills required for a central defender to that of a midfielder

 

 

Whereas every other CM we have has been faultless defensively and absolutely not responsible for any poor midfield play.

I've seen Sara gift the ball to the opposition in ridiculous areas numerous times this season, far more than KM, but I note you haven't shared any criticism of him.

There is quite literally no point in trying to reason with "supporters" like yourselves who have already made their decision on KM, and strive to clutch any straws which they think proves their opinions rather than except the growing body of evidence that Kenny is actually a pretty decent player at this level.

Let's see how the rest of the season plays out and revisit this conversation in July.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

1 minute ago, Ian said:

Whereas every other CM we have has been faultless defensively and absolutely not responsible for any poor midfield play.

I've seen Sara gift the ball to the opposition in ridiculous areas numerous times this season, far more than KM, but I note you haven't shared any criticism of him.

There is quite literally no point in trying to reason with "supporters" like yourselves who have already made their decision on KM, and strive to clutch any straws which they think proves their opinions rather than except the growing body of evidence that Kenny is actually a pretty decent player at this level.

Let's see how the rest of the season plays out and revisit this conversation in July.

Sara at least has credit in the bank from an attacking sense and has contributed in that aspect.  McLean offers nothing offensively.

Besides which, I've been banging the drum all season that Sara is too deep and should be nowhere near our own penalty box.

There is potentially a 15 goal a season midfielder there who should be operating as a no.10

If McLean is being played as a defensive midfielder...as he has been for most if the season, then ultimately he must be judged as one, ...and he hasnt done a good job there this season

[BigFish 1,988]

McLean has been one of our most consistent players over the last few seasons and Gibson is a capable defender at this level. That after a a win that takes us to eigth and the fringe of the playoffs some of our so called supporter chose to dwell on their places in the team reflects more on those "fans" than it does on the players thenselves.

 

[astro 360]

8 hours ago, BigFish said:

McLean has been one of our most consistent players over the last few seasons and Gibson is a capable defender at this level. That after a a win that takes us to eigth and the fringe of the playoffs some of our so called supporter chose to dwell on their places in the team reflects more on those "fans" than it does on the players thenselves.

 

When you start to question a supporters level of support, because their viewpoint differs to yours, you’ve already lost the argument.

[canarydan23 4,060]

9 hours ago, Ian said:

I just genuinely don't understand the point you're trying to make.

It's a pretty simple point. We are better without Kenny McLean in midfield. The results back this up. Some people have trouble admitting this.

I'm not even one of the Kenny Hate Club, I've been pretty consistent on here with calling him a decent Championship player (he was involved in two titles FFS) but that the fact we relied on him so heavily in the Prem was a big factor in why we were so easily relegated twice.

Sadly this season and the last he hasn't been able to recapture his old Championship form. He hasn't been dreadful and has been put in a role he's ill-equipped for, but for months some of us have been concerned that Kenny at DM is a big problem. 

He's not playing DM and results have improved markedly. Part of it is also down to the job he's doing at CB for sure, but another part of it is that Nunez is doing a better job in Kenny's previous position.

Is that so hard to admit?

[Number9 272]

13 hours ago, hogesar said:

Please show me the suicidal passes every game. We've played around half our matches but I'll settle for just 10.

Maybe we look better defensively because Kenny is not only one of our better midfielder but turns out one of our better CBs because he has a long list of skills (that Sara drooled over in a recent interview) that are transferable into different positions.

Our midfield isn't "better because Kenny isn't there" because he often drives into midfield from CB. He's there alot. Check his heat map.

Move your eyes from the page of stats & actually watch him play.

Why do you think he's spent so much time with his hand up apologising to his teammates game after game?

 

[nu_matik 167]

9 minutes ago, Number9 said:

Move your eyes from the page of stats & actually watch him play.

Why do you think he's spent so much time with his hand up apologising to his teammates game after game?

 

I wouldn't say it was every game but nobody can deny its a lot of games.

He doesn't actually do too much wrong in my eyes, he's just a hugely uninspiring player in style. That's why he gets the hate. 

Defenders will make mistakes all the time at all the best clubs week in week out. I feel he's a very easy and weak scapegoat and feel bad for him. Would I pick him over (a fit) Hanley or Kenny at the moment? No. Boo him? No.

[hogesar 9,676]

14 minutes ago, Number9 said:

Move your eyes from the page of stats & actually watch him play.

Why do you think he's spent so much time with his hand up apologising to his teammates game after game?

 

Why does every manager, every ex-player and every current player want him starting then? That's the biggest question. That some of you think you know better than Farke, Smith, Wagner, their coaching staff, Lappin, Eddie, Holt, Gibson, Gunn, Sargent, I could go on...

[nu_matik 167]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

It's a pretty simple point. We are better without Kenny McLean in midfield. The results back this up. Some people have trouble admitting this.

I'm not even one of the Kenny Hate Club, I've been pretty consistent on here with calling him a decent Championship player (he was involved in two titles FFS) but that the fact we relied on him so heavily in the Prem was a big factor in why we were so easily relegated twice.

Sadly this season and the last he hasn't been able to recapture his old Championship form. He hasn't been dreadful and has been put in a role he's ill-equipped for, but for months some of us have been concerned that Kenny at DM is a big problem. 

He's not playing DM and results have improved markedly. Part of it is also down to the job he's doing at CB for sure, but another part of it is that Nunez is doing a better job in Kenny's previous position.

Is that so hard to admit?

I think the argument is a little skewed though.

The turn of fortunes isn't solely due to midfield improvement. Yes Sara and Nunez are great, this a separate argument though.

Our turn of fortune is down to more goals. Its down to better defensive play. Its down to the return of Gunn and dare I say it Barnes. Its even down to Wagners tweaking and often bizarre formation/ starting 11 tombola.

Sara and Nunez have played very well for 2/3 consecutive games. Great.

During this recent run we've also seen several poor performances in midfield from Fassnacht and Onel but let's pick on Kenny! 2 CDM playing well doesn't mean a player moved successfully to a new role is the problem. I'm fully behind keeping a winning team starting. But I'd also say that we could move Sara forward and put Kenny in his place and things would be great. 

I'd love to see some stats that show Kenny was in direct blame for any losses in our poor phase.

 

[BigFish 1,988]

2 hours ago, astro said:

When you start to question a supporters level of support, because their viewpoint differs to yours, you’ve already lost the argument.

You rather prove my point. The post in question didn't question supporters level of support, that you neither engaged with the point or understood it speaks volumes. Psychologically, the question is why supporters choose the evening after a win to knock our own players. This can be extended to why they do it in such a hyperbolic manner, neither McLean or Gibson are as bad as the exagerated opinions stated. It develops in a rejection of tactics that are largely adopted across the Elite game (playing from the back or tippy tappy anyone). There is always a strange joy on here amongst some posters when we lose because it affirms their preconceived ideas. Why is that? The post didn't question these guys, and it is always guys, level of support. The question was why?

Edited December 24, 2023 by BigFish

[Samwam27 527]

To me its simple. Kenny in defence hqs sured up our defence, and also allowed improved performances from Duffy.

That partnership is actually working, so.dont change it. I dont care if Gibson and Hanley are back, they'll have to wait for their chance. Prior to that Gibson and Duffy wasnt working, and we were leaking goals.for.fun, so that also dispells the myth a left footed CB should.come back in

Moving Kenny from midfield has also allowed Nunez & Sara to create a more effective midfield, again which is working so dont change it.

The only conundrum for.me is up.front with Sarg coming back. Id continue with Barnes at no.10 and  Sarg up.front, else try Hwang at 10 as he was in form when he got injured. Both Hwang and Sarg give us better and stronger options up front than we currently have. Rowe and Sainz should start as our wingers.

That, to me is our most balanced side

[nu_matik 167]

3 minutes ago, Samwam27 said:

To me its simple. Kenny in defence hqs sured up our defence, and also allowed improved performances from Duffy.

That partnership is actually working, so.dont change it. I dont care if Gibson and Hanley are back, they'll have to wait for their chance. Prior to that Gibson and Duffy wasnt working, and we were leaking goals.for.fun, so that also dispells the myth a left footed CB should.come back in

Moving Kenny from midfield has also allowed Nunez & Sara to create a more effective midfield, again which is working so dont change it.

The only conundrum for.me is up.front with Sarg coming back. Id continue with Barnes at no.10 and  Sarg up.front, else try Hwang at 10 as he was in form when he got injured. Both Hwang and Sarg give us better and stronger options up front than we currently have. Rowe and Sainz should start as our wingers.

That, to me is our most balanced side

Its totally plausible that we will see some different lines ups that tests this out in the coming week with busy schedule.

I can't see Kenny as one for taking a rest no matter how badly Gibson wants a game.

I do feel that we will likely see the return of Sarge and Barnes as 9 and 10 as soon as is possible.

Agree with Sainz and Rowe as wingers. Sara and Nunez CDM Roles. 

 

[KiwiScot 1,449]

Has McLean been the captain most of the season? If that matters? If we are talking about Gibson coming back in and Mclean totally out the midfield. KM can be used anywhere and getting Gibson back up to speed will increase the managers options in formation. The players in the team suddenly haven't become so much better consistency that you can justify him(KM) being out the team.

KM Interview, General talk about the match really, but mention of Duffy helping him  - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0h1d0vj

Listen to his reaction to him being asked if his position switch has changed the way they set him. He says no, but feels like yes.

My suggestion KM wants back into the midfield could also be conversely he'll want to play any position just to keep playing.

Gibson will only be shipped In January for money reasons, but leaving us with one experienced CB as I don't count Hanley now due to the nature of his injury.

 

Edited December 24, 2023 by KiwiScot

[shefcanary 2,410]

Just to add my tuppence ha'pny. I've spelt out my current thoughts on Kenny on another thread. Just suffice to say, after five years of total mediocrity from Kenny, we finally find his best (nay, I'd argue, only) position, then Wagner subs on Gibson for Sara to move Kenny back into a position he is **** at! If I'd been at the Carra yesterday, I'd have booed - not at Gibson, but at Wagner for jeopardising our solid defensive base by disrupting a proper midfield set up. 

Kenny is a good LCB, an okay LB, an average inverted LW, but is not a midfield pivot! Wagner, listen to people who know! 

Edited December 24, 2023 by shefcanary

[nu_matik 167]

10 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

Just to add my tuppence ha'pny. I've spelt out my current thoughts on Kenny on another thread. Just suffice to say, after five years of total mediocrity from Kenny, we finally find his best (nay, I'd argue, only) position, then Wagner subs on Gibson for Sara to move Kenny back into a position he is **** at! If I'd been at the Carra yesterday, I'd have booed - not at Gibson, but at Wagner for jeopardising our solid defensive base by disrupting a proper midfield set up. 

Kenny is a good LCB, an okay LB, an average inverted LW, but is not a midfield pivot! Wagner, listen to people who know! 

This is the thing... hyperbolic stuff like this.

In 5 years he's been pivotal in 2 promotion seasons. Pivotal, no less. Not a flair player, not scoring tons. But defensively very sound, creative when needed. Reliable. One bad game and he turns it round. He's a leader on and off the pitch 

"5 years of mediocrity" is just plain and simple rubbish 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,768]

11 minutes ago, nu_matik said:

This is the thing... hyperbolic stuff like this.

In 5 years he's been pivotal in 2 promotion seasons. Pivotal, no less. Not a flair player, not scoring tons. But defensively very sound, creative when needed. Reliable. One bad game and he turns it round. He's a leader on and off the pitch 

"5 years of mediocrity" is just plain and simple rubbish 

In those 2 promotion winning seasons he had Tettey and Skipp alongside him

Without someone like that with him , we've seen both last season and this how defensively 'unsound' he is in midfield

Edited December 24, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary