Please God no

[hogesar 9,736]

1 hour ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

McLean not being in midfield has made that department better  ,with better midfielders in it who dont misplace so many passes.

I know you desperately don't like Kenny but in terms of passes over the entirety of the season there is only a couple of % between Kenny, Nunez and Sara so that has nothing to do with it.

Previously your complaint with Kenny was his defensive limitations but he's better than Nunez in every conceivable defensive stat.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

16 minutes ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

We have won and we are edging closer to a playoff place, mad as that seems. I am just happy with that atm going into Christmas. Our CB situation causes so much derision amongst fans simply because we ship so many goals and whatever combination we play they are all prone to error. Oh for a Watson/ Bruce combination. Personally I am quite impressed with KM at CB for now, the actual CBs are all much of a muchness, Hanley probably coming tops from a defensive perspective ( zero presence at set pieces).

Strangely, I'm not sure the Watson/Bruce pairing was a good one, they were arguably too similar to compliment each other

They were only together for 2 seasons, the first of which we were relegated , the second was a walk in the park where we ran away with division 2 ,where both they and Chris Woods had a cigar and slippers most weeks.

Watson was probably better for us prior to that pairing, whilst Bruce was for us afterwards.

I'd say as a 'defensive partnering' Linighan/Butterworth were better?

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

Gibson and Kenny both left-footed, Hanley and Duffy both right-footed. Batth as emergency backup, Warner out on loan. For now I'd stick with Kenny and Duffy, but when Hanley's back to full match fitness I'd prefer him to Duffy, who still looks pretty immobile and prone to mistakes.

Keep the midfield as it has been, we have Gibbs as a very decent backup and Lungi coming back from injury too (as well as Forshaw for a bit of experience if necessary). If we can find a new home for Gibson in January then great, but on his wages I expect he'll want to hang around until the summer.

Booing Gibson is utterly moronic, though. I despair at some of our fans, really I do.

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

2 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I know you desperately don't like Kenny but in terms of passes over the entirety of the season there is only a couple of % between Kenny, Nunez and Sara so that has nothing to do with it.

Previously your complaint with Kenny was his defensive limitations but he's better than Nunez in every conceivable defensive stat.

Our defensive seems better now that McLean isnt in our midfield , being overun and allowing the opposition to carve through it....and there isnt the obligatory suicidal pass to the opposition every game. McLean seems more confortable with the game being played in front of him rather than being in the midfield battle.

We've become institutionalized these past years with him playing there  but there is better out there, even on our own books

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,855]

7 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Gibson and Kenny both left-footed, Hanley and Duffy both right-footed. Batth as emergency backup, Warner out on loan. For now I'd stick with Kenny and Duffy, but when Hanley's back to full match fitness I'd prefer him to Duffy, who still looks pretty immobile and prone to mistakes.

Keep the midfield as it has been, we have Gibbs as a very decent backup and Lungi coming back from injury too (as well as Forshaw for a bit of experience if necessary). If we can find a new home for Gibson in January then great, but on his wages I expect he'll want to hang around until the summer.

Booing Gibson is utterly moronic, though. I despair at some of our fans, really I do.

 

I agree with everything there, but one thing I do have concerns about is Hanley being less immobile than Duffy. Hanley is 32 now and has just missed nine months of football after a ruptured achilles, which, I believe, is generally the worst injury a professional athlete can have when it comes to permanently affecting speed and mobility. I obviously hope I'm wrong, but I do fear that counting on Hanley as a genuine first-team regular moving forward is ambitious. 

[astro 366]

10 minutes ago, hogesar said:

I know you desperately don't like Kenny but in terms of passes over the entirety of the season there is only a couple of % between Kenny, Nunez and Sara so that has nothing to do with it.

Previously your complaint with Kenny was his defensive limitations but he's better than Nunez in every conceivable defensive stat.

Forget your stats for a minute and look at what is happening on the pitch - Nunez looks far more comfortable on the ball than Kenny does in that deep midfield position. The team get on the front foot quicker with Nunez there, and his link up play with his fellow midfielders is much better. 
 

[hogesar 9,736]

5 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Our defensive seems better now that McLean isnt in our midfield , being overun and allowing the opposition to carve through it....and there isnt the obligatory suicidal pass to the opposition every game. McLean seems more confortable with the game being played in front of him rather than being in the midfield battle.

We've become institutionalized these past years with him playing there  but there is better out there, even on our own books

 

Please show me the suicidal passes every game. We've played around half our matches but I'll settle for just 10.

Maybe we look better defensively because Kenny is not only one of our better midfielder but turns out one of our better CBs because he has a long list of skills (that Sara drooled over in a recent interview) that are transferable into different positions.

Our midfield isn't "better because Kenny isn't there" because he often drives into midfield from CB. He's there alot. Check his heat map.

[hogesar 9,736]

1 minute ago, astro said:

Forget your stats for a minute and look at what is happening on the pitch - Nunez looks far more comfortable on the ball than Kenny does in that deep midfield position. The team get on the front foot quicker with Nunez there, and his link up play with his fellow midfielders is much better. 
 

What does that have to do with any of the points I made to GJL?

I actually agree that Nunez is a more progressive passer of the ball but that wasn't the point being made.

It's also a limited sample size. Kenny was MOTM several games over at the beginning of the season playing that deeper role. It's fundamentally based on what's happening and available around you.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

1 minute ago, hogesar said:

Please show me the suicidal passes every game. We've played around half our matches but I'll settle for just 10.

Maybe we look better defensively because Kenny is not only one of our better midfielder but turns out one of our better CBs because he has a long list of skills (that Sara drooled over in a recent interview) that are transferable into different positions.

Our midfield isn't "better because Kenny isn't there" because he often drives into midfield from CB. He's there alot. Check his heat map.

Well maybe McLean is just now a better defender than he is a midfielder?....could be that simple

Yes , he's taking up similar positions as he was when playing in midfield in dropping deep to pick up the ball...but what that then allows, is space for a better midfielder i.e Nunez , to come in and operate higher up the pitch

As  I previously said, there are decisions to be made for Wagner in the coming 2/3 weeks,when central defenders return. I suspect he will fit all of Sara Nunez and McLean into the midfield and sacrifice a no.10 in Barnes, rather make a tough call.

[Feedthewolf 4,871]

13 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I agree with everything there, but one thing I do have concerns about is Hanley being less immobile than Duffy. Hanley is 32 now and has just missed nine months of football after a ruptured achilles, which, I believe, is generally the worst injury a professional athlete can have when it comes to permanently affecting speed and mobility. I obviously hope I'm wrong, but I do fear that counting on Hanley as a genuine first-team regular moving forward is ambitious. 

Well yeah obviously we don't know what Hanley will be like once he's back. Hanley pre-injury would be ahead of Duffy, but of course there's a chance that the injury will have caused significant problems that impede his speed, mobility and judgement.

[Bradwell canary 109]

3 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

I was hoping Gibson would be tried out as the tea lady, to be honest.

Doubtful think he would pass the tea to the wrong person behind him.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

21 minutes ago, astro said:

Forget your stats for a minute and look at what is happening on the pitch - Nunez looks far more comfortable on the ball than Kenny does in that deep midfield position. The team get on the front foot quicker with Nunez there, and his link up play with his fellow midfielders is much better. 
 

The midfield pairing of McLean / Sara simply wasnt working from a defensive point of view. Up until 6/7 games ago we had the worst defensive record in the whole league, which was disgraceful

I believe this was more down to the poor protection offered by the mudfielders rather than the defenders themselves.

I applaud Wagner in trying something to address that probkem, in dropping MxLsan into defense

We just cannot return to that pairing, however, when Hanley/Gibson are back fit, unless we sacrifice a no.10 i.e Barnes and bring in a third midfielder i.e Nunez.

However , if Wagner does favour continuing with a Barnes or Hwang behind Sargent, and goes with a midfield 2, a decusion  is to be made,  Sara obviously plays and then its a straight fight between McLean and Nunez...

 

[Ian 1,136]

54 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Our defensive seems better now that McLean isnt in our midfield , being overun and allowing the opposition to carve through it....and there isnt the obligatory suicidal pass to the opposition every game. McLean seems more confortable with the game being played in front of him rather than being in the midfield battle.

We've become institutionalized these past years with him playing there  but there is better out there, even on our own books

 

Yeah our defence is surely better with the disastrous, haphazard McLean at CB than in midfield.

Absolutely sound logic there mate.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ian

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

6 minutes ago, Ian said:

Yeah our defence is surely better with McLean at CB than in midfield.

Absolutely sound logic there mate.

Its not logical....but somehow its worked these past few games

Hats off to Wagner for trying it.

...and the midfield pairing of McLean/Sara cannot be restored

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

18 minutes ago, Ian said:

Yeah our defence is surely better with the disastrous, haphazard McLean at CB than in midfield.

Absolutely sound logic there mate.

...you didnt quote or reference the below line....odd that you would miss that out?...why would that be??

"McLean seems more confortable with the game being played in front of him rather than being in the midfield battle."

 

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Ian 1,136]

6 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

...you didnt quite the below line....odd that you would miss that out?...why would that be??

"McLean seems more confortable with the game being played in front of him rather than being in the midfield battle."

 

Yeah, that makes total sense and absolutely doesn't smack of a McLean hater trying to justify why he's done a pretty unbelievable job at CB to date.

Have you considered that the alternative is perhaps that you are wrong about him as a player?

You would think if Kenny was such a disaster in CM every single manager who he has played under would not have played him as (mostly) the first name on the team sheet.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

Just now, Ian said:

Yeah, that makes total sense and absolutely doesn't smack of a McLean hater trying to justify why he's done a pretty unbelievable job at CB to date.

Have you considered that the alternative is perhaps that you are wrong about him as a player?

You would think if Kenny was such a disaster in CM every single manager who he has played under would not have played him as (mostly) the first name on the team sheet.

My issue is that I dont believe hs's an effective midfielder any longer...and stand by that

..and if he really is that 'integral' to our midfield , do you really think he would have been pulled out of it and dropped back into defence???

Have you 'considered' that?

[Ian 1,136]

5 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

My issue is that I dont believe hs's an effective midfielder any longer...and stand by that

..and if he really is that 'integral' to our midfield , do you really think he would have been pulled out of it and dropped back into defence???

Have you 'considered' that?

Just wondered if you read and actually believe what you write or if there is some sort of weird cognitive dissonance going on?

If KM was "done" as a footballer in his preferred position, and made such apparently terrible errors in the midfield, do you truly believe Wagner would push him into CB rather than onto the bench or out of the squad? Maybe you might consider yourself an alternative scenario where he is one of the most trusted and adaptable members of the squad that he can go on to achieve pretty unexpected success in an alien role.

One thing I have always found strange about our fanbase is what lengths some people will go to justify their own opinion rather than hold their hands up and admit they may have called it wrong.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

2 minutes ago, Ian said:

Just wondered if you read and actually believe what you write or if there is some sort of weird cognitive dissonance going on?

If KM was "done" as a footballer in his preferred position, and made such apparently terrible errors in the midfield, do you truly believe Wagner would push him into CB rather than onto the bench or out of the squad? Maybe you might consider yourself an alternative scenario where he is one of the most trusted and adaptable members of the squad that he can go on to achieve pretty unexpected success in an alien role.

One thing I have always found strange about our fanbase is what lengths some people will go to justify their own opinion rather than hold their hands up and admit they may have called it wrong.

 

..you dont think that playing at centre half requires a different skillset and a different reading of the game than in central midfield?....that would seem odd to me?...unless you are actually an idiot...but I'll give the benefit of the doubt for now

He certaintly wouldnt be the first player to convert into a different position (usually further back) as he's no longer as effective in the preferred positon

Lothar Matthaus perhaps being a prime example

[Ian 1,136]

1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

 

..you dont think that playing at centre half requires a different skillset and a different reading of the game than in central midfield?....that would seem odd to me?...unless you are actually an idiot...but I'll give the benefit of the doubt for now

He certaintly wouldnt be the first player to convert into a different position (usually further back) as he's no longer as effective in the preferred positon

Lothar Matthaus perhaps being a prime example

Oh that has totally changed my opinion. You're absolutely right, managers frequently take liability players like the KMc you have described and look to push them into a different role to keep them in the starting 11, as oppose to just benching them.

Genuine players who convert into a different position are highly valued, otherwise why bother?

We can carry on this "discussion" all day, but it's absolutely clear to me that you are grasping at every contrived opportunity to manifest you own opinion rather than assessing objective reality.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

9 minutes ago, Ian said:

Oh that has totally changed my opinion. You're absolutely right, managers frequently take liability players like the KMc you have described and look to push them into a different role to keep them in the starting 11, as oppose to just benching them.

Genuine players who convert into a different position are highly valued, otherwise why bother?

We can carry on this "discussion" all day, but it's absolutely clear to me that you are grasping at every contrived opportunity to manifest you own opinion rather than assessing objective reality.

My opinion is that he isnt a very good midfielder any longer...and stand by that..as was shown earlier this season when he was part of it and part of one being sliced open and shipping the most goals in the entire league whilst contributing very little offensively either.

Our midfield now looks better without him in it....thats not just opinion

None of us could know how he would play as a centre half because...guess what...we hadnt seen him there before.

Could it just be that in his advancing years he is now a more effective defender than he is midfielder ?....due to his reading of the game now outweighing passing, tackling, box to box  running that is required from a central midfielder

It really isnt that hard to comprehend

...or perhaps it is for some

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Ian 1,136]

2 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

My opinion is that he isnt a very good midfielder any longer...and stand by that..as was shown earlier this season when he was part of it and part of one being sliced open and shipping the most goals in the entire league whilst contributing very little offensively either.

Our midfield now looks better without him in it....thats not just opinion

None of us could know how he would play as a centre half because...guess what...we hadnt seen him there before.

Could it just be that in his advancing years he is now a more effective defender than he is midfielder ?....due to his reading of the game now outweighing passing, tackling, box to box  running that is required from a central midfielder

It really isnt that hard to comprehend

...or perhaps it is for some

Comprehension is something I excel at, but clearly a skill that you lack greatly.

What is the logic behind your argument? If Kenny is declining as a player so much, why would Wagner play him at such a critical position when we have a Championship Player of the Season on the bench?

If his engine has gone as you suggest, why is he so capable at driving out of CB and affecting play? Why would Wagner push him into midfield rather than substituting him for Gibson today?

You are Stupid Barry and I claim my five pounds!

[Capt. Pants 4,276]

We've only conceded 4 goals in our last 5 games with Kenny at CB rather than midfield and won 3 and drawn 2 and are creating chances.

The only change I can see is Gibson in the back 4 with Kenny in midfield with either Sara or Nunez moved forward in place of Barnes. But then Sargent and Barnes work well, so dropping Barnes isn't necessarily the right answer either.

For me Nunez and Sara are so good where they are playing at the moment and are an upgrade on KM in that position. I like Kenny but will be seriously peed off with Wagner if he chops and changes things just to play Kenny.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

6 minutes ago, Ian said:

Comprehension is something I excel at, but clearly a skill that you lack greatly.

What is the logic behind your argument? If Kenny is declining as a player so much, why would Wagner play him at such a critical position when we have a Championship Player of the Season on the bench?

If his engine has gone as you suggest, why is he so capable at driving out of CB and affecting play? Why would Wagner push him into midfield rather than substituting him for Gibson today?

You are Stupid Barry and I claim my five pounds!

"Comprehension is something I excel at"

Thats the best christmas cracker joke i'll hear this festive season

Wagner has stated he wants a left footed player to play the ball out of defence

How much of an 'engine' is required to sporadically do that during a game?....harrdly 'all action..box to box'

The game was long won when Gibson came on ,it was to put someone up against the 6ft 10 striker they bought on

Try again...Mr 'Comprehension'

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[Ian 1,136]

Just now, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

"Comprehension is something I excel at"

Thats the best christmas cracker joke i'll hear this festive season

Wagner gas stated he wants a left footed player to play the ball out of defence

Hos much of an 'engine' is required to sporadically do that during a game?....harrdly 'all action..box to box'

The game was long won when Gibdon came on ,it was to put someone up against the 6ft 10 striker they bought on

Try again...Mr 'Comprehension'

Honestly you need to get a grip. I am really quite embarrassed for you, and can only assume you've had a few too many beers that you might regret in the morning.

Wagner rates McLean enough to shift him into CB rather than bench or totally drop him. Every manager we have had since Kenny has been at the club has looked to play him where possible.

Just to clarify, your argument seems to be that because Kenny is such a poor midfielder who is over the hill, Wagner has looked to drop him into CB simply because he's left footed? 

Honestly why do you believe this to be the case? Is it simply because it fits your preconceived notions of KM as a footballer?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

5 minutes ago, Ian said:

Honestly you need to get a grip. I am really quite embarrassed for you, and can only assume you've had a few too many beers that you might regret in the morning.

Wagner rates McLean enough to shift him into CB rather than bench or totally drop him. Every manager we have had since Kenny has been at the club has looked to play him where possible.

Just to clarify, your argument seems to be that because Kenny is such a poor midfielder who is over the hill, Wagner has looked to drop him into CB simply because he's left footed? 

Honestly why do you believe this to be the case? Is it simply because it fits your preconceived notions of KM as a footballer?

I have 'conceived' notions of KM as a 'midfielder'  which are proving to be founded

As previously discussed, we couldnt have known how he would fare in this defensive role

This is like 'discussing' football with someone who has never watched football

Its disappointing

Edited December 23, 2023 by GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary

[nu_matik 167]

2 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

I have 'conceived' notions of KM as a 'midfielder'  which are proving to be founded

As previously discussed, we couldnt have known how he would fare in this defensive role

This is like 'discussing' football with someone who has never watched football

Its disappointing

It's pretty odd that you're knocking a guy who's been very successful for us in midfield and now he's being a successful defender.

Trophies at midfield

Clean sheets and good performances at CB.

Maybe there's another agenda?

[......and Smith must score. 1,360]

3 hours ago, Grando said:

I imagine the reason Gibson was brought on was because Huddersfield's sub, the No. 27, was about 7ft tall, so Gibson made it slightly less of an aerial mismatch. It was a good substitution, and I didn't hear any negative reaction from where I was sitting in the Lower Barclay. 

Well sitting in the South Stand there were groans and a few muted boos when Gibson’s name was announced when he came on. He may not be a world beater but a little unkind when it was his first appearance after a long spell out with injury.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,800]

1 minute ago, nu_matik said:

It's pretty odd that you're knocking a guy who's been very successful for us in midfield and now he's being a successful defender.

Trophies at midfield

Clean sheets and good performances at CB.

Maybe there's another agenda?

'Been' being the word

Those title wins were 3 and 5 seasons ago

What was good enough then, isnt now

[nu_matik 167]

Just now, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

'Been' being the word

Those title wins were 3 and 5 seasons ago

What was good enough then, isnt now

Depends if you just dislike someone so badly you can't see current successes.

Maybe he won't just slot back into midfield with Sara or Nunez. 

Maybe we're just seeing him play well and it doesn't matter.