Could Farke have turned it around?

[The Great Mass Debater 1,092]

Wagner has been shown some faith. If Farke had been shown a similar amount of faith, could he too have seen some improvement in results?

PS - I dont really care if merely the existence of this question triggers the right people. If you dont like the question you can always ignore the post...

[king canary 7,654]

15 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Wagner has been shown some faith. If Farke had been shown a similar amount of faith, could he too have seen some improvement in results?

PS - I dont really care if merely the existence of this question triggers the right people. If you dont like the question you can always ignore the post...

The question is nonsense though- Farke was given loads of faith! He got a whole season to get his system in place and then the chance to bounce back after losing 10 on the spin to finish the season.

The idea Wagner has been shown more faith than Farke doesn't make any sense.

[Ulfotto 641]

Define turn it around? Do you mean stay up? Do you mean get relegated then bounce back again? 

[Number9 272]

Farke = Wagner in that neither of them can see a way to build & set up a team for the Premier League 

[Thirsty Lizard 3,183]

Could he have turned it round in the Premier League. No! Absolutely not! 

Would I have had faith in him to get us promoted again following relegation from the Premier League? Put it this way, I would have had far more faith in him getting us promoted than I had in Dean Smith.

[Branston Pickle 3,680]

Not a chance in hell. Anyone who saw the Chelsea and Leeds debacles knew it was up. The Brentford game was a one-off (and we almost blew that one despite them not turning up).  It may have been a lack of the right tools, but it’s a definite ‘no’ from me.

[TheGunnShow 5,987]

I dunno, I don't think there was enough in that second PL team come what may. Essentially Webber thought there was, hence his move to sack Farke and bring Smith in.

This time around there seems to be a more prevalent view amongst fans that the team is underachieving and far less than the sum of its parts relative to others in the league (note the comments in the Preston match thread and especially the Blackburn one), whereas in Farke's case, there might have been a few tweaks that could have been made, but we were always a bit behind in terms of physicality and not technically adroit enough to counter it.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,183]

1 minute ago, Number9 said:

Farke = Wagner in that neither of them can see a way to build & set up a team for the Premier League 

True for Farke (so far) - not true for Wagner. He did a fantastic job in keeping Huddersfield up in the Premier League following promotion.

 He was praised for his achievements in keeping Huddersfield in the Premier League at the end of the 2017–18 season, a feat regarded by bookmakers as improbable and described by The Guardian as "the Premier League's greatest survival story", with Wagner in particular noted as "a leader of rare charisma and intelligence."^[25]

[Branston Pickle 3,680]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

The question is nonsense though- Farke was given loads of faith! He got a whole season to get his system in place and then the chance to bounce back after losing 10 on the spin to finish the season.

The idea Wagner has been shown more faith than Farke doesn't make any sense.

Some people really do seem to have Farke-coloured spectacles on.  There were campaigns to remove him at the start of each of his Championship winning seasons, and also his first season. I recall a 2-0 very stodgy win against PNE at home supposedly ‘saving’ his job (though I doubt he’d have been booted).

It’s quite amazing how this near-legend has grown up that we played pretty football all the time and blew sides away. We often didn’t.  The number of games won with the odd goal or late winners was very high - not that I’m complaining.

[Ulfotto 641]

A better question would be would Farke have survived with fans in the stadium for the 20/21 season.

[Number9 272]

6 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

True for Farke (so far) - not true for Wagner. He did a fantastic job in keeping Huddersfield up in the Premier League following promotion.

 He was praised for his achievements in keeping Huddersfield in the Premier League at the end of the 2017–18 season, a feat regarded by bookmakers as improbable and described by The Guardian as "the Premier League's greatest survival story", with Wagner in particular noted as "a leader of rare charisma and intelligence."^[25]

Are we talking about the same butcher who is running City at the moment? 

Where are Huddersfield at the moment anyway?

 

Edited December 15, 2023 by Number9

[littleyellowbirdie 2,583]

If, by 'it', you mean could Daniel Farke have arrested our absolutely dire performance in the Premier League that were on course to surpass the disastrous whole season in the Premier League with what most people view as a better squad, then definitely not.

If you mean could he have got us another promotion, possibly, but thuat misses the point of why he was sacked. Too many were not content to be a yoyo club, which is why he had to go while there was still a chance that someone could have turned it around. It was a situation where there was nothing to lose by trying a different manager.

And, it has to be said that Dean Smith did better for us in the Premier League in terms of points per game for us than Farke did, not to mention his history elsewhere or having achieved Premier League promotion and Premier League survival that Farke doesn't have.

Edited December 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[The Great Mass Debater 1,092]

2 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

The number of games won with the odd goal or late winners was very high - not that I’m complaining.

A characteristic of many a great team, to play until the final whistle

[king canary 7,654]

Just now, Branston Pickle said:

Some people really do seem to have Farke-coloured spectacles on.  There were campaigns to remove him at the start of each of his Championship winning seasons, and also his first season. I recall a 2-0 very stodgy win against PNE at home supposedly ‘saving’ his job (though I doubt he’d have been booted).

It’s quite amazing how this near-legend has grown up that we played pretty football all the time and blew sides away. We often didn’t.  The number of games won with the odd goal or late winners was very high - not that I’m complaining.

I think campaigns to remove him is over egging a touch- there were complaints sure and I'm willing to say that end of his first, early second season I wouldn't have been against sacking him but I don't think he ever got the pressure that say Hughton or Smith got here, largely because circumstances were very different.

[Deptford Yellow 260]

How Farke manages with a higher calibre squad in the Prem next season will answer this question definitively …

[The Great Mass Debater 1,092]

Also, £10 says Farke finishes above Norwich this season

[littleyellowbirdie 2,583]

2 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Also, £10 says Farke finishes above Norwich this season

Leeds' vastly superior squad assembled in multiple seasons in the Premier League should absolutely by rights finish above us.

Edited December 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Ulfotto 641]

Interesting in the 21/22 at this stage we had more points than all the current teams in the relegation zone. 
 

I for one don’t see the same negativity thrown at said teams that was thrown at us.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,583]

6 minutes ago, Deptford Yellow said:

How Farke manages with a higher calibre squad in the Prem next season will answer this question definitively …

I've got to be honest, much as I like him, I'm hoping Farke fails, just to shut people up about him. Fair play to him if he succeeds though.

Edited December 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,797]

Theyre were in different leagues

Not sure anyone could have kept us up in the premier league, its easier to put a run of results together in the championship

[king canary 7,654]

Just now, Deptford Yellow said:

How Farke manages with a higher calibre squad in the Prem next season will answer this question definitively …

I'm not 100% sure it will, because Farke at Leeds is different to Farke at Norwich.

I think he's taken lessons from his time here and the failure at Gladbach and adapted his style somewhat- his Leeds team are much more urgent in their pressing and not quite so focused on ball retention above everything than he was here. It is notable that his Leeds team plays the 7th most passes a game, less than teams like Blackburn, Sunderland and Hull, whereas we were 1st for this stat in 20/21 and 3rd in 18/19. 

Would that evolution have happened if he'd just stayed here? I'm not sure.

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

In the Premier League? No, far too stubborn with his tactical approach for that league with the poor quality players Webber signed for him.

Would he do better with this squad at this level than Wagner? Imo yes.

[The Great Mass Debater 1,092]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Leeds' vastly superior squad assembled in multiple seasons in the Premier League should absolutely by rights finish above us.

Whilst true, it's kind of irrelevant when discussing Farke's ability. If he is successful it simply shows his ability when given the resources. Many a flawed manager has squandered a team full of diamonds. The board seem to think Norwich managers are perpetually guilty of this

Edited December 15, 2023 by The Great Mass Debater

[littleyellowbirdie 2,583]

3 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

Whilst true, it's kind of irrelevant when discussing Farke's ability. If he is successful it simply shows his ability when given the resources. Many a flawed manager has squandered a team full of diamonds. The board seem to think Norwich managers are perpetually guilty of this

If we're considering what's irrelevant, so is the question of whether he could have turned anything around, seeing as Farke isn't our manager any more. King Canary makes a great point that he's not the same manager he was when he was our manager anyway.

Our current manager seems to be turning things around, which is great.

The king is dead; long live the king (until he's dead).

Edited December 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[The Great Mass Debater 1,092]

I think in terms of the Premier League, the question is, what is a sustainable philosophy?

Lambert's brand of football was incredibly effective. Could it have been sustainable if he had stayed? His lack of success elsewhere perhaps suggests not. 

Hughton-ball didnt work and proved not sustainable. 

Worthy was close to keeping us up, though I think that team had far less cohesion than other Norwich Premier League teams. 

In Wagner we have a coach with a track record of Premier League survival. Though not beyond one season.

If Wagner gets us up (and in this division the play-offs is always only a fortuitous run away), is his approach sustainable? Or does it run out of steam the way most Bielsa teams do?

[Branston Pickle 3,680]

21 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

A characteristic of many a great team, to play until the final whistle

Maybe - but also an indication that the team isn’t dominating in the way people remember. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,583]

8 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

I think in terms of the Premier League, the question is, what is a sustainable philosophy?

Lambert's brand of football was incredibly effective. Could it have been sustainable if he had stayed? His lack of success elsewhere perhaps suggests not. 

Hughton-ball didnt work and proved not sustainable. 

Worthy was close to keeping us up, though I think that team had far less cohesion than other Norwich Premier League teams. 

In Wagner we have a coach with a track record of Premier League survival. Though not beyond one season.

If Wagner gets us up (and in this division the play-offs is always only a fortuitous run away), is his approach sustainable? Or does it run out of steam the way most Bielsa teams do?

I think there was a great synergy with Lambert. Taking us from League One to the Premier League and survival put him in unimpeachable territory. Ultimately, he decided he'd reached his limit with us. Hughton gave us another season in the Premier League so I don't see why Lambert couldn't, but Lambert's choice made that a moot point. The general rejection of Hughton's footballing philosophy by a significant number of fans ultimately caused the positive spirit to turn into a siege mentality that destroyed us.

Edited December 15, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[king canary 7,654]

2 minutes ago, The Great Mass Debater said:

I think in terms of the Premier League, the question is, what is a sustainable philosophy?

Lambert's brand of football was incredibly effective. Could it have been sustainable if he had stayed? His lack of success elsewhere perhaps suggests not. 

Hughton-ball didnt work and proved not sustainable. 

Worthy was close to keeping us up, though I think that team had far less cohesion than other Norwich Premier League teams. 

In Wagner we have a coach with a track record of Premier League survival. Though not beyond one season.

If Wagner gets us up (and in this division the play-offs is always only a fortuitous run away), is his approach sustainable? Or does it run out of steam the way most Bielsa teams do?

I think its a tough question to answer.

What does seem obvious to me is that 'Farke ball' as we saw it in his 50 odd games in the top flight isn't the way. It is notable that when you look at teams who have gone up and managed to establish a foothold, none are playing that style. The one team who are playing a similar style is Burnley and they have failed to win against anyone who wasn't in the Championship with them last season and seem highly likely to head straight back down. Brighton only attempted their current style after a couple of seasons survival. 

The most comparable clubs to us are, in my view, Brentford and Bournemouth. Both have had success with limited budgets by Premier League standard. It is notable that both of them generally will look to be direct on the attack, get the ball forward quickly and aren't obsessed with playing it out from the back all the time. This doesn't mean hoof-ball but it means swift counter attacking and a willingness to exploit gaps and space when they get the ball from the opposition.

I'm not saying this is the only way but I think it is much more achievable on a budget than what we attempted. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,583]

9 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Maybe - but also an indication that the team isn’t dominating in the way people remember. 

We definitely weren't dominating anything in the Premier League...

[Thirsty Lizard 3,183]

31 minutes ago, Number9 said:

Are we talking about the same butcher who is running City at the moment? 

Where are Huddersfield at the moment anyway?

 

Just a little tip on life. If you'd come back and said "Oh yeah, my mistake, I'd forgotten that Wagner did a fantastic job in keeping Huddersfield up in the Premier League in their first season" everybody would have forgotten about it and moved on.

When you're in a hole, stop digging.