The price of football

[nutty nigel 7,658]

As always Kieran sums it up. We’ve joined the rat race. Hopefully we have enough dollars in the piggy bank to end the race in the top six. But our losses are the average losses for Championship clubs. It’s what most posters wanted so embrace it…

 

[Indy 3,343]

22 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

As always Kieran sums it up. We’ve joined the rat race. Hopefully we have enough dollars in the piggy bank to end the race in the top six. But our losses are the average losses for Championship clubs. It’s what most posters wanted so embrace it…

 

What is up Nutty? Why the animosity towards fans? Surely regardless of what the fans want the SD has along with the owners the choice to do what they want and the over top wages on ****e players, bringing in a failed coach after sacking Farke isn’t the fans fault! Maybe your anger and animosity would be better directed at your beloved shareholders at board room they allowed Webber to carry on even when he said he wasn’t bothered about the job and would only give it a max of 90%. 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

The self-funding model was us swimming against the tide Nutty. This is where’s it’s gotten us. Modern football is broken, no doubt about it, but trying to pretend that we could be the single exception to the rule was suffocating the club and has resulted in the position we’re in now.

[S_81 922]

27 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

As always Kieran sums it up. We’ve joined the rat race. Hopefully we have enough dollars in the piggy bank to end the race in the top six. But our losses are the average losses for Championship clubs. It’s what most posters wanted so embrace it…

 

Spending money doesn’t need to equate to wasting money. Big difference. Our wage bill vs the squad = bad investments. 

[komakino 275]

27 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

As always Kieran sums it up. We’ve joined the rat race. Hopefully we have enough dollars in the piggy bank to end the race in the top six. But our losses are the average losses for Championship clubs. It’s what most posters wanted so embrace it…

 

I don't recall any poster wanting to support a badly run club that has poor governance and makes poor decisions. 

As Kieran says, the club needs to be smarter. That is a huge understatement. 

[nutty nigel 7,658]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

What is up Nutty? Why the animosity towards fans? Surely regardless of what the fans want the SD has along with the owners the choice to do what they want and the over top wages on ****e players, bringing in a failed coach after sacking Farke isn’t the fans fault! Maybe your anger and animosity would be better directed at your beloved shareholders at board room they allowed Webber to carry on even when he said he wasn’t bothered about the job and would only give it a max of 90%. 

No animosity here Indy. I'm sure if you listened to Maguire and then read my post you'd see that. I do try to stick to facts and not just build an opinion on a cornerstone of hatred for individuals.

I'll repeat though. We've joined the rat race. It now depends on how many dollars are in the piggy bank. This was most posters seemed to want. They should now embrace it.

The replies so far unsurprisingly focus on individuals and not the sobering reality of where we are. 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by nutty nigel

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

27 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

As always Kieran sums it up. We’ve joined the rat race. Hopefully we have enough dollars in the piggy bank to end the race in the top six. But our losses are the average losses for Championship clubs. It’s what most posters wanted so embrace it…

 

But as far back as I can remember, we have always had money problems. Blankets going round, Turners loans, selling players to avoid administration. Whether we like it or not, and I don't either, we have to pay over the odds for ordinary or poor players. The players and their agents rule and clubs are scared of them and the butterfly effect works and we have to follow.

I think we can all appreciate it isn't easy to balance the books under those circumstances but at the moment we appear to be going backwards in everything.

I was chatting to a chap this morning walking the dogs and said poor old Norfolk seems tough for sport at the moment. Us, Kings Lynn at the bottom and poor old North Walsham haven't got one single point in the rugby.

Things are cyclical of course and that will never change.

[Worthy Nigelton 1,088]

Interesting interview there and it does reinforce the opinion that Webber has made an enormous mess of things. The club did 'go for it' but got it spectacularly wrong and for that the blame is with SW. His legacy looks worse and worse with every passing moment and his arrogance totally mis-placed. 

[nutty nigel 7,658]

It's a shame there's a picture of Webber on that video. I don't think he's mentioned. Jack does a really good job of letting the expert speak. The video itself highlights that our massive losses are the average for all championship clubs. It's sobering to reflect on.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by nutty nigel

[S_81 922]

5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

It's a shame there's a picture of Webber on that video. I don't think he's mentioned. Jack does a really good job of letting the expert speak. The video itself highlights that our massive losses are the average for all championship clubs. It's sobering to reflect on.

 

A sad state of affairs for sure. But there’s 16 teams sitting higher than us right now - who seem to have done better this season with their loss. 

[Christoph Stiepermann 1,157]

Nobody wanted us to spend money for money's sake or hit a certain spending level to look like we had a go at PL level. We want the club to be able to back talented and successful managers when the opportunity presents itself. In that '21 window we spent more than we had to spend but didn't back the manager as it was well documented that we didn't go with the strategy that Farke wanted. 

To make that step up playing anything other than really ultra defensive football you do need a lot of money to spend but spending all you have on relatively expensive gambles on known players that others clubs have passed over isn't the right strategy or what the fans wanted either. I know fans were happy at the time but we trusted Webber and co to be able to identify what we needed, none of us could have known how immature Tzolis was, or that Sargent needs half a second more time to sort his feet out than he gets at PL level or that Normann would be a paper tiger of a player because we're not scouts. But if we went with the strategy that Farke wanted and got those 4 specific additions and it didn't work out then I guess none of us would have a right to complain that it didn't work out but that's not what we did, we gambled more than everything on flawed younger players in the hope they'd develop and plugged gaps with expensive loans that were well down our list of initial targets, no fans wanted that. 

 

[S_81 922]

4 minutes ago, Christoph Stiepermann said:

Nobody wanted us to spend money for money's sake or hit a certain spending level to look like we had a go at PL level. We want the club to be able to back talented and successful managers when the opportunity presents itself. In that '21 window we spent more than we had to spend but didn't back the manager as it was well documented that we didn't go with the strategy that Farke wanted. 

To make that step up playing anything other than really ultra defensive football you do need a lot of money to spend but spending all you have on relatively expensive gambles on known players that others clubs have passed over isn't the right strategy or what the fans wanted either. I know fans were happy at the time but we trusted Webber and co to be able to identify what we needed, none of us could have known how immature Tzolis was, or that Sargent needs half a second more time to sort his feet out than he gets at PL level or that Normann would be a paper tiger of a player because we're not scouts. But if we went with the strategy that Farke wanted and got those 4 specific additions and it didn't work out then I guess none of us would have a right to complain that it didn't work out but that's not what we did, we gambled more than everything on flawed younger players in the hope they'd develop and plugged gaps with expensive loans that were well down our list of initial targets, no fans wanted that. 

 

Absolutely - Webber wasted our budget. Other teams have, and will, do far better with the equivalent or with less. Of course we aren’t the only team to have done so, but that makes it no easier to take 

[nutty nigel 7,658]

31 minutes ago, S_81 said:

A sad state of affairs for sure. But there’s 16 teams sitting higher than us right now - who seem to have done better this season with their loss. 

Webber's gone. He achieved two championships with the old model but the model ultimately failed. McNally delivered two promotions but the model ultimately failed. Delia and Michael delivered five promotions but the model ultimately failed. Or perhaps was successful but would always ultimately fail.

Most of the clubs losing £475k per week will ultimately fail. The price of football is ultimately not sustainable.

[BigFish 1,988]

14 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Webber's gone. He achieved two championships with the old model but the model ultimately failed. McNally delivered two promotions but the model ultimately failed. Delia and Michael delivered five promotions but the model ultimately failed. Or perhaps was successful but would always ultimately fail.

Most of the clubs losing £475k per week will ultimately fail. The price of football is ultimately not sustainable.

Post of the Week, already.

[S_81 922]

13 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Webber's gone. He achieved two championships with the old model but the model ultimately failed. McNally delivered two promotions but the model ultimately failed. Delia and Michael delivered five promotions but the model ultimately failed. Or perhaps was successful but would always ultimately fail.

Most of the clubs losing £475k per week will ultimately fail. The price of football is ultimately not sustainable.

He’s not gone! He’s still on our payroll. Still involved in the decision making, or lack of it. You’re categorically wrong with that statement. 
But of course I agree about the state of modern day football and the debt incurred. Albeit I state again - we are in this position now due to Stu’s failure in that last prem season. 

[komakino 275]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

No animosity here Indy. I'm sure if you listened to Maguire and then read my post you'd see that. I do try to stick to facts and not just build an opinion on a cornerstone of hatred for individuals.

I'll repeat though. We've joined the rat race. It now depends on how many dollars are in the piggy bank. This was most posters seemed to want. They should now embrace it.

The replies so far unsurprisingly focus on individuals and not the sobering reality of where we are. 

 

Unless you've been in Parkhurst for the last 30 years, there is nothing out of the ordinary that has happened in football. Therefore I don't understand what you're trying convey with the 'rat race' mantra. 

Although financial issues are nothing new to Norwich City, as older fans will note with blankets going round the crowd to keep it afloat. No fan likes this. 

What has been all apparent in the last three decades is that you cannot have hobby horse owners who are adverse to the modern realities of football. In our case, when Chase was hounded out - quite rightly as his type were over - in the 90's, we needed somebody who knew what and how the future of football was - and still is - who was prepared to invest and/or seek outside investment. 

Instead we got the shameless opportunist in Delia Smith. And MWJ of course. Being a fan means nothing. MA isn't a fan and will probably be all the better for it. 

Football has and will not wait for Norwich City or anybody else, so either you want to play or fold instead of trying to keep a deluded vision of parochial self funding football alive. 

I don't like seeing bad footballers get paid insane wages every week like anybody else, but that is where we are and have been for a long time. 

If it is a rat race, then nobody told Delia to join. 

 

[S_81 922]

3 minutes ago, komakino said:

Unless you've been in Parkhurst for the last 30 years, there is nothing out of the ordinary that has happened in football. Therefore I don't understand what you're trying convey with the 'rat race' mantra. 

Although financial issues are nothing new to Norwich City, as older fans will note with blankets going round the crowd to keep it afloat. No fan likes this. 

What has been all apparent in the last three decades is that you cannot have hobby horse owners who are adverse to the modern realities of football. In our case, when Chase was hounded out - quite rightly as his type were over - in the 90's, we needed somebody who knew what and how the future of football was - and still is - who was prepared to invest and/or seek outside investment. 

Instead we got the shameless opportunist in Delia Smith. And MWJ of course. Being a fan means nothing. MA isn't a fan and will probably be all the better for it. 

Football has and will not wait for Norwich City or anybody else, so either you want to play or fold instead of trying to keep a deluded vision of parochial self funding football alive. 

I don't like seeing bad footballers get paid insane wages every week like anybody else, but that is where we are and have been for a long time. 

If it is a rat race, then nobody told Delia to join. 

 

The key point in that for me is the wages that we are paying to too many poor quality players. It wasn’t the way when Lambert was giving lads a step up and getting them to play as a unit. If this Webber premier league failed experiment gets us back to the point of having players and a coach give their all as a unit then I’ll take that over the overpaid individuals and manager that we currently have - who sure as hell aren’t putting a shift in for the fans or the shirt. 

[nutty nigel 7,658]

7 minutes ago, komakino said:

Unless you've been in Parkhurst for the last 30 years, there is nothing out of the ordinary that has happened in football. Therefore I don't understand what you're trying convey with the 'rat race' mantra. 

Although financial issues are nothing new to Norwich City, as older fans will note with blankets going round the crowd to keep it afloat. No fan likes this. 

What has been all apparent in the last three decades is that you cannot have hobby horse owners who are adverse to the modern realities of football. In our case, when Chase was hounded out - quite rightly as his type were over - in the 90's, we needed somebody who knew what and how the future of football was - and still is - who was prepared to invest and/or seek outside investment. 

Instead we got the shameless opportunist in Delia Smith. And MWJ of course. Being a fan means nothing. MA isn't a fan and will probably be all the better for it. 

Football has and will not wait for Norwich City or anybody else, so either you want to play or fold instead of trying to keep a deluded vision of parochial self funding football alive. 

I don't like seeing bad footballers get paid insane wages every week like anybody else, but that is where we are and have been for a long time. 

If it is a rat race, then nobody told Delia to join. 

 

You just carry on making stuff up and hating on the folk you hate. You should change your username to Jack Anory.

[essex canary 515]

5 minutes ago, S_81 said:

The key point in that for me is the wages that we are paying to too many poor quality players. It wasn’t the way when Lambert was giving lads a step up and getting them to play as a unit. If this Webber premier league failed experiment gets us back to the point of having players and a coach give their all as a unit then I’ll take that over the overpaid individuals and manager that we currently have - who sure as hell aren’t putting a shift in for the fans or the shirt. 

Exactly. The likes of Szmodics with his East Anglian connections should be the type of player we are focusing on. Blackburn's finances aren't a pretty sight either but their wage bill is far more modest than ours and they can still find capable players. We were privileged to be in the Premier League when the pandemic struck but messed it up regardless.

[komakino 275]

6 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

You just carry on making stuff up and hating on the folk you hate. You should change your username to Jack Anory.

What on earth are you talking about? I'm allowed an opinion like anybody else. This is how I see it. 

[Indy 3,343]

1 hour ago, nutty nigel said:

It's a shame there's a picture of Webber on that video. I don't think he's mentioned. Jack does a really good job of letting the expert speak. The video itself highlights that our massive losses are the average for all championship clubs. It's sobering to reflect on.

 

Now that’s the comment I can get behind and rather than blame fans for wanting Norwich to become competitive, why not say that football players and agents are a greedy bunch of chancers who unfortunately took advantage of a SD who isn’t fully focused on his job?

[komakino 275]

20 minutes ago, S_81 said:

The key point in that for me is the wages that we are paying to too many poor quality players. It wasn’t the way when Lambert was giving lads a step up and getting them to play as a unit. If this Webber premier league failed experiment gets us back to the point of having players and a coach give their all as a unit then I’ll take that over the overpaid individuals and manager that we currently have - who sure as hell aren’t putting a shift in for the fans or the shirt. 

The key point that some have flagged up is how wasteful Webber was for our last EPL campaign and this has been conveyed to me by a couple of sources at CR in the past. 

Logic would have dictated that the club purchase 2/3 very good players on higher wages to work with what we had and younger players coming through. Instead as revealed by The Athletic, Webber was concerned that Farke was having too many injuries and decided he needed a larger squad. That costs money, but it would have helped if Daniel's key targets were met - Webber got none and I would argue that none of his purchases were good enough - which Farke also told Webber. 

Must be a great feeling for a manager who has been bought players he doesn't want, but Farke was not alone in that. 

However, the club needs to be very clever and cannot waste money in the inflated world of football. While not every signing will be right, we have to make damn sure we make them work more often than not with a youth system that works too. 

Edited November 6, 2023 by komakino

[nutty nigel 7,658]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Now that’s the comment I can get behind and rather than blame fans for wanting Norwich to become competitive, why not say that football players and agents are a greedy bunch of chancers who unfortunately took advantage of a SD who isn’t fully focused on his job?

I think you carry on putting your own meaning on my words. All I ask is that you watch the video and read my post in that contex.

[Bert 236]

I have been calling for a stinking rich Chinese owner only then will the club reach the promised land of the champions league 

[Indy 3,343]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

I think you carry on putting your own meaning on my words. All I ask is that you watch the video and read my post in that contex.

I have and no meaning at all, you said it, sobering that this is the average debt for a championship club, who’s to blame for that? The fans? Nope the players and the stupid demands! Down to the clubs to say no!

[nutty nigel 7,658]

10 minutes ago, komakino said:

What on earth are you talking about? I'm allowed an opinion like anybody else. This is how I see it. 

Maybe you can show me where Delia and Michael are shameless opportunists.

 

[nutty nigel 7,658]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

I have and no meaning at all, you said it, sobering that this is the average debt for a championship club, who’s to blame for that? The fans? Nope the players and the stupid demands! Down to the clubs to say no!

I haven't blamed the fans. I just said it was what most posters wanted.

It's the alternative to the failed self funding model.

[nutty nigel 7,658]

5 minutes ago, Bert said:

I have been calling for a stinking rich Chinese owner only then will the club reach the promised land of the champions league 

You are a breath of fresh air today Bert.

[Indy 3,343]

3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I haven't blamed the fans. I just said it was what most posters wanted.

It's the alternative to the failed self funding model.

Really? Could it actually be that the self funded model hasn’t worked as those players bought in we’re with an eye on making profits, Rashica, Sargent & Tzolis all bought to sell or to improve the squad at the time?

Maybe it’s the self funding model which now doesn’t keep up with the wage demands of **** poor journeymen now on our books with no sell on value!

[S_81 922]

11 minutes ago, komakino said:

The key point that some have flagged up is how wasteful Webber was for our last EPL campaign and this has been conveyed to me by a couple of sources at CR in the past. 

Logic would have dictated that the club purchase 2/3 very good players on higher wages to work with what we had and younger players coming through. Instead as revealed by The Athletic, Webber was concerned that Farke was having too many injuries and decided he needed a larger squad. That costs money, but it would have helped if Daniel's key targets were met - Webber got none and I would argue that none of his purchases were good enough - which Farke also told Webber. 

Must be a great feeling for a manager who has been bought players he doesn't want, but Farke was not alone in that. 

However, the club needs to be very clever and cannot waste money in the inflated world of football. While not every signing will be right, we have to make damn sure we make them work more often than not with a youth system that works too. 

Precisely. Webber not only bought a crop of players unable to compete immediately at premier league level, but they weren’t near good enough for Championship promotion either. Their resale value subsequently dipped too. 
Sargent and Sara will pay dividends. But they are an exception to the rule. And we are running out of saleable assets. And as of now there is no evidence of youth players at their level coming through either to replace them (bar Rowe). We’ve tried to patch this problem with players at the end of their careers. But IMO it’s largely not working out - they’re overpriced and under motivated. 
 

This summer will see Sara sold. Possibly Rowe too. Unless Knapper proves to be very astute, alongside a good coach - spotting bargains in other teams’ youth set-ups or from lower leagues, plus some loans, then City will continue the downward trajectory.