The Crisis in Christianity

[king canary 7,680]

Title should maybe read American Christianity but I have no doubt we'll be seeing similar issues over here soon enough.

I'm not a religious person but this provoked my interest- the editor of Christianity Today saying American Evangelical Christianity is in crisis due to the embrace of the right wing nationalist viewpoint and that he's spoken to preachers who've been accused of parroting 'liberal talking points' when preaching the sermon on the mount.

Quote

It was the result of having multiple pastors tell me, essentially, the same story about quoting the Sermon on the Mount, parenthetically, in their preaching — "turn the other cheek" — [and] to have someone come up after to say, "Where did you get those liberal talking points?" And what was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, "I'm literally quoting Jesus Christ," the response would not be, "I apologize." The response would be, "Yes, but that doesn't work anymore. That's weak." And when we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we're in a crisis.

It seems for some in America, Jesus himself is too woke for their tastes. 

I've always been kind of fascinated by the hypocrisy of the American Evangelical Right- how do you mesh their particular brand of American Exeptionalism and Rugged Individualism with the teachings of christ who tells you to love your neigbour, help the poor and that the meek will inherit the earth. How do people who, ostensibly, believe in decency and family values throw themselves so wholeheartedly behind a seriel adulterer and deviant like Trump? How does the cognitive dissonance not melt their brains?

I'm interested to see how this plays out longer term. Where do the more conservative leaning but still Christian believes go when the church is overtaken by whackjobs obsessed with guns and 'murica rather than anything in the actual bible?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,821]

Amusingly if most American right wing evangelists want a religion more fitting to their values they should convert to islam.

Not too surprised it's the Southern baptists that claim Jesus is too woke.. After all they were the ones who were on the side of America that fought to keep slavery a legal right after all

Edited August 13, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[dylanisabaddog 5,013]

@king canarythis is a fascinating subject. We live in interesting times. I'm 64 and in my life have watched a huge decline in Christianity. In fact there are now more atheists than Christians in England. The same decline is happening in America but they are a few years behind us.

The really strange thing about Christians in the UK is that they are generally conservative in nature. My local Vicar told me recently that he is considering voting Labour for the first time. A bit odd when you think that Jesus was probably the first and greatest ever socialist. 

I'm a bit baffled like you. How can you possibly have Christian beliefs but support the Republicans or Conservatives? It makes no sense to me. 

I don't mind people having Christian beliefs but I'm not at all happy that they and their leaders wield power way in excess of their popularity. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

Regarding @dylanisabaddog's question re. Christian beliefs and supporting the Republicans, I'd say this is social conservatism to a greater extent than economic conservatism.

I think there's a toxic brand of religious exceptionalism going on amongst the evangelist/fundamentalist set, and that this applies to all Abrahamic religions. They seem to fluff up any sense of persecution to pretend they're being shot at whilst basically trying to take the pre-eminent role in a culture. On top of that, they seem to take being questioned as an affront. 

For the want of a better term, I'd say it's a brand of collective narcissism.

[dylanisabaddog 5,013]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Regarding @dylanisabaddog's question re. Christian beliefs and supporting the Republicans, I'd say this is social conservatism to a greater extent than economic conservatism.

I think there's a toxic brand of religious exceptionalism going on amongst the evangelist/fundamentalist set, and that this applies to all Abrahamic religions. They seem to fluff up any sense of persecution to pretend they're being shot at whilst basically trying to take the pre-eminent role in a culture. On top of that, they seem to take being questioned as an affront. 

For the want of a better term, I'd say it's a brand of collective narcissism.

Very eloquently put and, I think, correct in every respect. 

My particular concern at the moment is that my daughter has a choice of sending her children to the local C of E school or making the effort to take them elsewhere. It's ridiculous that these people are allowed to educate our children but it's obvious why they want to be involved. 

It's confusing for young children to be taught about God at school only to go home to be told it's not true. What is especially irritating is that when I've picked up the kids from school none of the parents or grandparents I've spoken to at the school gates want their children to receive religious education. My daughter says support amongst parents on social media and WhatsApp groups is less than 10%.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

31 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

My particular concern at the moment is that my daughter has a choice of sending her children to the local C of E school or making the effort to take them elsewhere. It's ridiculous that these people are allowed to educate our children but it's obvious why they want to be involved.

C of E schools are by no means prevalent. Only about 4,000 of the 32,000 schools in the UK are C of E schools. Those schools exist because the parents choose to send their children there, which isn't the concern of anyone but the parents.

If I had kids, I'd be a lot more concerned about them being taught at a young age that questions about their sexual identity can be resolved by lopping parts of their body off and regular doses of hormones, but increasingly those sort of choices are no longer in the remit of the parents. It's a strange society that's more bothered about whether cattle are injected with hormones and steroids than they are children.

On the main topic. Evangelical Christians in the US figure at about 90-100 million of the 22 0million Christians in the US. Globally, there are 2.4 billion Christians. It's the largest religion in the world and growing, with numbers up between 2022 and 2023, representative of the fact that it has more traction in societies where the population is still growing. I think the perceived crisis of politiicsation of evangilical Christianity is merely a symptom of the crisis in the wider society rather than the cause.

Looking elsewhere, the Russian Orthodox church has been politicised to justify the invasion of Ukraine to the population; religion can be influenced by wider politics just as much as religion can influence wider politics, if not more.

As KC points out, a lot of the political thrust of the evangelicals doesn't fit remotely with the ideas and values represented by Jesus, which underlines that the political ideas are not really part of the religion, but something grafted on by influential people in the group hijacking it to serve a political agenda.

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[dylanisabaddog 5,013]

26 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

C of E schools are by no means prevalent. Only about 4,000 of the 32,000 schools in the UK are C of E schools. Those schools exist because the parents choose to send their children there, which isn't the concern of anyone but the parents.

 

 

Sorry but that's not the case. Those schools exist for purely historic reasons. In several Norfolk villages they are the only option available to parents. I can assure you that the parents of Newton Flotman do not choose to send their children to a C of E school. They have no choice unless they wish to drive their children elsewhere, if there is space. My daughter tried 3 other schools within 10 miles and they didn't have space for children outside their catchment area. 

As for there "only" being 4,000 CofE primary schools, isn't that 4,000 too many? 

Edited August 14, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

11 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Sorry but that's not the case. Those schools exist for purely historic reasons. In several Norfolk villages they are the only option available to parents. I can assure you that the parents of Newton Flotman do not choose to send their children to a C of E school. They have no choice unless they wish to drive their children elsewhere, if there is space. My daughter tried 3 other schools within 10 miles and they didn't have space for children outside their catchment area. 

Then they have a choice; they've made a decision to tolerate it out of convenience. it's simply a question of how strong the feeling against it is and whether or not it's worth the inconvenience of sticking to their principles. If they felt really strongly, in the final resort they could home school.

48% of the population still considers itself Christian, which means you should not be entitled to deny parents the right to have their children educated in a faith-based school.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[cambridgeshire canary 6,821]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

@king canarythis is a fascinating subject. We live in interesting times. I'm 64 and in my life have watched a huge decline in Christianity. In fact there are now more atheists than Christians in England. The same decline is happening in America but they are a few years behind us.

The really strange thing about Christians in the UK is that they are generally conservative in nature. My local Vicar told me recently that he is considering voting Labour for the first time. A bit odd when you think that Jesus was probably the first and greatest ever socialist. 

I'm a bit baffled like you. How can you possibly have Christian beliefs but support the Republicans or Conservatives? It makes no sense to me. 

I don't mind people having Christian beliefs but I'm not at all happy that they and their leaders wield power way in excess of their popularity. 

"The really strange thing about Christians in the UK is that they are generally conservative in nature"

 

I mean, yes most Christians do tend to have more shall we say traditional values but the Church itself? Hoo boy. Almost every church I walk past nowadays has some LGBTQP++- flag hanging outside and are proudly boasting about having some sort of lesbian priest or vicar.

Don't get me wrong, fully support the gays and that myself but the irony is hillarious. Have they ever read what the bible says about homosexuality? Or they are just cherry picking like most religions do? Seems Christianity however is happy to just keep ignoring more and more of the bible.. Then they wonder why the church is in decline

[Herman 9,837]

The bible says very little about homosexuality. And what it does say is cherry picked to base a lot of hatred on.  

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

10 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

"The really strange thing about Christians in the UK is that they are generally conservative in nature"

 

I mean, yes most Christians do tend to have more shall we say traditional values but the Church itself? Hoo boy. Almost every church I walk past nowadays has some LGBTQP++- flag hanging outside and are proudly boasting about having some sort of lesbian priest or vicar.

Don't get me wrong, fully support the gays and that myself but the irony is hillarious. Have they ever read what the bible says about homosexuality? Or they are just cherry picking like most religions do? Seems Christianity however is happy to just keep ignoring more and more of the bible.. Then they wonder why the church is in decline

https://www.hrc.org/resources/what-does-the-bible-say-about-homosexuality

Much like a lot of the oddities of evangelical Christianity, hostility to homosexuality can be said to be something that has been culturally adopted rather than something inherent in the text of the bible. Strict views on gender roles can be found throughout many cultures, regardless of which religion dominates. The rainbow flags at churches is simply the LGBTQ+ Christian community asserting its identity in the context of their church, with the growing support of the rest of the Christian community, reflective of the changing attitudes in wider society.

Edited August 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[dylanisabaddog 5,013]

20 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Then they have a choice; they've made a decision to tolerate it out of convenience. it's simply a question of how strong the feeling against it is and whether or not it's worth the inconvenience of sticking to their principles. If they felt really strongly, in the final resort they could home school.

48% of the population still considers itself Christian, which means you should not be entitled to deny parents the right to have their children educated in a faith-based school.

 

 

Try reading my post again. There is no other choice available. 90% of the parents in the village don't want the Church involved in the running of the school.

As ever, the young people in this country are having their lives controlled by the older generation. The figures in support of Christianity in the UK are heavily influenced by generation. 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/30/census-data-england-wales-uk-non-religious-future-campaigners

Christianity is dying. Thank God for that. 

 

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

56 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

"The really strange thing about Christians in the UK is that they are generally conservative in nature"

 

I mean, yes most Christians do tend to have more shall we say traditional values but the Church itself? Hoo boy. Almost every church I walk past nowadays has some LGBTQP++- flag hanging outside and are proudly boasting about having some sort of lesbian priest or vicar.

Don't get me wrong, fully support the gays and that myself but the irony is hillarious. Have they ever read what the bible says about homosexuality? Or they are just cherry picking like most religions do? Seems Christianity however is happy to just keep ignoring more and more of the bible.. Then they wonder why the church is in decline

You can't quote the bible on homosexuality because you'd be obliterated by the LGBTQ+ brigade. It's a book that's thousands of years old and contains nothing but outdated views and opinions that are no longer relevant in today's more tolerant and open society.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,821]

1 minute ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

You can't quote the bible on homosexuality because you'd be obliterated by the LGBTQ+ brigade. It's a book that's thousands of years old and contains nothing but outdated views and opinions that are no longer relevant in today's more tolerant and open society.

So in otherwords the bible is no longer needed in christianity. Can't wait for them to reject jesus too.

Then you might as well rename the religion while you're at it.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

43 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Try reading my post again. There is no other choice available. 90% of the parents in the village don't want the Church involved in the running of the school.

As ever, the young people in this country are having their lives controlled by the older generation. The figures in support of Christianity in the UK are heavily influenced by generation. 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/30/census-data-england-wales-uk-non-religious-future-campaigners

Christianity is dying. Thank God for that. 

 

I read it. Your idea of choice is wrong. You think lack of choice is not having an alternative that you find sufficiently convenient. There's always choice. The school will have been established as C of E long before any of the parents came along. The school serves its purposes and educates children regardless of whether or not they subscribe to the faith. In the final analysis, if that 90% of parents were sufficiently unhappy they'd agitate more. One can only presume their view of the educational outcomes overrides their dislike of Christianity.

Christianity is growing overall globally. The death of Christianity in the UK  may simply be a reflection of an increasingly nihilistic and fragmenting society in general.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

2 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

So in otherwords the bible is no longer needed in christianity. Can't wait for them to reject jesus too.

Then you might as well rename the religion while you're at it.

Doesn't me to do anything, it's dying and it wont survive long term. It's been dying for decades.

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

The problem with christianity is that it's gone all woke and that Jesus bloke is probably the biggest culprit.

Instead of all this 'blessed is the peacemaker' nonsense we should get back to the crusades and teach these people a bloody good lesson in what God really meant, an eye for an eye and none of this gay stuff like coverting your neighbours ****.

All this feeding people just because their hungry and they've turned up to a sermon on a mountain shouldn't be tolerated, bring a packed lunch FFS!

Imagine the lost tribe of Israel crossing the Red Sea in small boats only to be sent to Rwanda, that'll teach them to flee persecution.

Don't get me started on Matthew, Mark, Luke & John, bloody grote shop Beatles, not a decent gospel between them.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,821]

6 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

Doesn't me to do anything, it's dying and it wont survive long term. It's been dying for decades.

Exactly my point. Islam is a barbaric, backwards religion from the dark ages that endorses slavery,extreme sexism and child marriage. But guess what? It's growing more than ever and a few decades from now will most likely be the most popular religion the planet. How many muslims do you know that ignore the quran? Oh wait, you don't as changing the Quran and ignoring it is a sin and a crime. Their holy book will forever stay exactly the same and never change. The islamic culture will stay exactly the same and never change.

So gee, wonder why Islam is taking over Christianity? Well, I mean there is also the death sentence for leaving Islam and all.. Anyways, I'm sure you get my point.

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

Since when does the long-needed fall in religious adherence mean society is becoming "nihilistic" or fragmented? I don't get the impression that the Scandinavians, Estonians or Czechs are that "nihilistic" or fragmented.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

15 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Since when does the long-needed fall in religious adherence mean society is becoming "nihilistic" or fragmented? I don't get the impression that the Scandinavians, Estonians or Czechs are that "nihilistic" or fragmented.

Norway: 68% Christian

Denmark: 85%

Sweden: 60%

The weakness of the Lutheran church in Estonia and the Czech republic  is mostly down to the influence of the Soviet Union, so doesn't really offer a comparison to the natural decline of Christianity in the UK.

I didn't say it means it's becoming fragmented and nihilistic; I said it's a symptom of it becoming fragmented and nihilistic. When considered with other things like lack of confidence in politics to deliver decent outcomes. Even on the EU business, while there's plenty of noise bemoaning it, there's nothing in the way of actual action. And while there's little confidence in either of the main parties of government, there's also little interest in systemic political change or belief that change could result in anything better. It's all just apathy and nihilism.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[FenwayFrank 2,469]

33 minutes ago, Canary Wundaboy said:

It's a book that's thousands of years old and contains nothing but outdated views and opinions that are no longer relevant in today's more tolerant and open society

Yeah, all that outdated stuff like "thou shalt not steal / murder" 😉

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

24 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

Exactly my point. Islam is a barbaric, backwards religion from the dark ages that endorses slavery,extreme sexism and child marriage. But guess what? It's growing more than ever and a few decades from now will most likely be the most popular religion the planet. How many muslims do you know that ignore the quran? Oh wait, you don't as changing the Quran and ignoring it is a sin and a crime. Their holy book will forever stay exactly the same and never change. The islamic culture will stay exactly the same and never change.

So gee, wonder why Islam is taking over Christianity? Well, I mean there is also the death sentence for leaving Islam and all.. Anyways, I'm sure you get my point.

I don't like any fundamentalist religious interpretations.

Not trying to defend Islam (it has also been very enlightened in the past - astronomy, mathematics and so on) but ALL the complaints you make about it can and have been made about Christianity too. Look no further than our own shores with the Puritans, Witch burnings, Bloody Mary, anti-semitism, the catholic-protestant divides (even up to the present day). We have our own Christian fundamentalists alive and well today too.

I know many educated people of all nominal faiths and none. Most people have a private faith and live and let live. Its both a strength and a weakness that the Quran cant be changed (unlike the second or third hand Bible - not quite absolute) - but it can be interpreted differently (hence the schisms in that at faith) 

However, as you mention Islam I will leave one parting though. The burka or the 'veil' still exists today in our society - it's the wedding dress veil or the nun's wimple (a modesty covering of head and neck - ring any bells?). It's from the same 'well'.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Norway: 68% Christian

Denmark: 85%

Sweden: 60%

The weakness of the Lutheran church in Estonia and the Czech republic  is mostly down to the influence of the Soviet Union, so doesn't really offer a comparison to the natural decline of Christianity in the UK.

I didn't say it means it's becoming fragmented and nihilistic; I said it's a symptom of it becoming fragmented and nihilistic. When considered with other things like lack of confidence in politics to deliver decent outcomes. Even on the EU business, while there's plenty of noise bemoaning it, there's nothing in the way of actual action. And while there's little confidence in either of the main parties of government, there's also little interest in systemic political change or belief that change could result in anything better. It's all just apathy and nihilism.

 

 

Yet it shouldn't need Kierkegaard again to realise that just because a percentage apparently say they are members of the church does not mean they really identify fully with their teachings.

A survey of 4,000 in Norway revealed that less than half believed in the presence of a god. 

Religion in Scandinavia: Norse, Christianity, Islam – Scandinavia Facts

Furthermore, how would you objectively measure society becoming fragmented and "nihilistic"? Just because one apparent source of "meaning" is being rejected doesn't mean they all are.

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Furthermore, how would you objectively measure society becoming fragmented and "nihilistic"? Just because one apparent source of "meaning" is being rejected doesn't mean they all are.

It seems the 'religious' or those that need to find some solace in the 'spiritual' can never understand those that don't!

I can believe in the Universe(s) and all that's in it without needing some further cosy meaning (which of course would not answer anything - who created 'God' etc or what was there before or are we all simulation in a computer programme?).

[littleyellowbirdie 2,602]

15 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Yet it shouldn't need Kierkegaard again to realise that just because a percentage apparently say they are members of the church does not mean they really identify fully with their teachings.

A survey of 4,000 in Norway revealed that less than half believed in the presence of a god. 

Religion in Scandinavia: Norse, Christianity, Islam – Scandinavia Facts

Furthermore, how would you objectively measure society becoming fragmented and "nihilistic"? Just because one apparent source of "meaning" is being rejected doesn't mean they all are.

To put it another way, a percentage of the population self-identifes as a religious denomination. Given that religious affiliation is entirely a subjective matter for the subject, independent of any real-world considerations, I'm not sure how anyone might be equipped to challenge an entirely subjective issue objectively?

The fact that people can simultaneously subscribe to a religion and not believe in a God per se underlines that the institutions of religion are in large part social and cultural hubs.

25 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

However, as you mention Islam I will leave one parting though. The burka or the 'veil' still exists today in our society - it's the wedding dress veil or the nun's wimple (a modesty covering of head and neck - ring any bells?). It's from the same 'well'.

While similar clothing may exist in Christianity, there's no coercion to wedding veils or habits in Christianity as there is with hijabs, niqabs, and burqas in some jurisdictions, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia, and no equivalent of a monk's habit to my knowledge, although there's no equivalent of monks or nuns in Islam.

Edited August 14, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[king canary 7,680]

3 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Very eloquently put and, I think, correct in every respect. 

My particular concern at the moment is that my daughter has a choice of sending her children to the local C of E school or making the effort to take them elsewhere. It's ridiculous that these people are allowed to educate our children but it's obvious why they want to be involved. 

It's confusing for young children to be taught about God at school only to go home to be told it's not true. What is especially irritating is that when I've picked up the kids from school none of the parents or grandparents I've spoken to at the school gates want their children to receive religious education. My daughter says support amongst parents on social media and WhatsApp groups is less than 10%.

I find the idea of faith schools to be inherently abhorrent and actively damaging to society. For example, it can't be good for integration if migrants from Islamic countries send their kids to Islamic faith schools where they never mix with people of different backgrounds and faiths. 

My experience of CofE schooling is the influence was fairly benign- hymns in the morning, a vicar showing up every now and then- but I still understand why people don't want it involved in their children's lives.

When it comes to schooling though, we are lucky we don't have the insane model of the US with elected school boards. The politicisation of religion is then transported into the conversation about children's education and you get the loudest shouting people dictating what can and can't be kept in the school library or even whether gay teachers can remotely mention their other halves.

[king canary 7,680]

50 minutes ago, cambridgeshire canary said:

How many muslims do you know that ignore the quran?

Tell me you don't know any Muslims without telling me you don't know any Muslims.

I know loads of Muslims who ignore large chunks or the Quaran. Young Muslim men particularly are just as picky and choosy about which bits of the Holy book need to obeyed as their Christian counterparts.

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

While similar clothing may exist in Christianity, there's no coercion to wedding veils or habits in Christianity as there is with hijabs, niqabs, and burqas in some jurisdictions, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia, and no equivalent of a monk's habit to my knowledge, although there's no equivalent of monks or nuns in Islam.

I think you'll find there is - women must wear head coverings in Church etc (see Corintheans - in effect to know their place ). It's just that we don't now in most Western Christian faiths follow those rules anymore! Education. It's also part of the same reason the Catholics don't have female priests (the man is the head and so on .... )

It actually all stems from the same 'traditions' - all the Abrahamic religions. All different aspects of the same (hence they largely share the same history and prophets with little twists).

Personally I find the capricious Greek Gods far more believable if we must have such beings.

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

13 minutes ago, king canary said:

Tell me you don't know any Muslims without telling me you don't know any Muslims.

I know loads of Muslims who ignore large chunks or the Quaran. Young Muslim men particularly are just as picky and choosy about which bits of the Holy book need to obeyed as their Christian counterparts.

Exactly KC - I can think of several friends where the only giveaway is that they don't alcohol ! No bad thing really!  

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

21 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

To put it another way, a percentage of the population self-identifes as a religious denomination. Given that religious affiliation is entirely a subjective matter for the subject, independent of any real-world considerations, I'm not sure how anyone might be equipped to challenge an entirely subjective issue objectively?

The fact that people can simultaneously subscribe to a religion and not believe in a God per se underlines that the institutions of religion are in large part social and cultural hubs.

While similar clothing may exist in Christianity, there's no coercion to wedding veils or habits in Christianity as there is with hijabs, niqabs, and burqas in some jurisdictions, such as Iran or Saudi Arabia, and no equivalent of a monk's habit to my knowledge, although there's no equivalent of monks or nuns in Islam.

The question was about how society may be more "nihilistic" and "fragmented" in the absence of religion, to use your words. So this is not about religious affiliation at all, but more on societal impact. Not to mention that the notion of subscribing to a religion yet not believing in a God per se does raise the question of - what exactly are they believing in then?

As for a cultural and social hub, I'd say sports clubs up and down the country fulfil that very well indeed.

I'll also point out that Morocco, Tunisia and Chad, three ostensibly Islamic countries, have banned the burqa.

Edited August 14, 2023 by TheGunnShow