World religion survey

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The Catholic Church in particular was originally all about controlling women and poor people, although to be fair at least they didn't burn the poor. 

There is an argument that Thatcher hastened the decline of religion in the UK but it must be more complicated than that. Why hasn't the same thing happened in America? 

It would be virtually impossible for an openly atheist person to become American President but in the UK a devoutly religious politician would be viewed with suspicion. 

Trump, although not openly atheist, managed to get elected when he just used religion to fool the gullible idiots who voted for him, he was once asked in an interview "What is you favourite book of the Bible?" and he replied "I like them all".

He also did that Omen like photo of him standing in front of a church holding the Bible like it was a foreign object.

I suppose if you've already been taken in by a religion then voting for Trump who didn't give a **** about it isn't that difficult.

[canarydan23 4,060]

47 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

I suppose if you've already been taken in by a religion then voting for Trump who didn't give a **** about it isn't that difficult.

Religious people are stupid is definitely in my top 5 of ironic arguments. 

Plenty of strong arguments for atheism. This demonstrably isn't one of them, given the amount of actual geniuses who subscribe to both sides of the argument.

[A Load of Squit 5,223]

23 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Religious people are stupid is definitely in my top 5 of ironic arguments. 

Plenty of strong arguments for atheism. This demonstrably isn't one of them, given the amount of actual geniuses who subscribe to both sides of the argument.

'Actual geniuses' are capable of making stupid decisions.

[TheGunnShow 6,023]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The Catholic Church in particular was originally all about controlling women and poor people, although to be fair at least they didn't burn the poor. 

There is an argument that Thatcher hastened the decline of religion in the UK but it must be more complicated than that. Why hasn't the same thing happened in America? 

It would be virtually impossible for an openly atheist person to become American President but in the UK a devoutly religious politician would be viewed with suspicion. 

Not convinced about the bit in bold at all. Most of our recent PMs have been religious, just not evangelically so.

The personal faith of PMs | The Spectator

I think it might be fairer to say in the UK we'd be sceptical of a political candidate who made it a fundamental ('arf) plank of their candidacy as opposed to the depth/sincerity of their beliefs.

As opposed to a fruitloop like this failed candidate for Georgia in the Taylor Greene mould.

Edited May 30, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[canarydan23 4,060]

19 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

'Actual geniuses' are capable of making stupid decisions.

Do they double down on them when called out too?

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

What do they call religion - the opium the masses?

I always used to think that Constantine had 'ulterior' motives in his acceptance of Christianity. What's not to like in a salvationist creed where you tell all your slaves and the poor - don't worry about your conditions today - you'll be rewarded in the next life! Seems like a win-win for the rich and entitled to me!

More seriously - it's not just in western Europe that religion fades - same is definitely true in Japan and in China. Of course there are those that 'need' whatever creed it is (same percentage I would guess in USA - it's a human trait / prop for some) but generally more outward looking educated questioning global societies tend to be more secular.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[dylanisabaddog 5,015]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Not convinced about the bit in bold at all. Most of our recent PMs have been religious, just not evangelically so.

The personal faith of PMs | The Spectator

I think it might be fairer to say in the UK we'd be sceptical of a political candidate who made it a fundamental ('arf) plank of their candidacy as opposed to the depth/sincerity of their beliefs.

As opposed to a fruitloop like this failed candidate for Georgia in the Taylor Greene mould.

I did say "devoutly religious". 

[TheGunnShow 6,023]

Just now, dylanisabaddog said:

I did say "devoutly religious". 

I know. I think we have understood the term of being devout somewhat differently. I'm saying simply that we've had plenty of religious PMs recently, just they've not really been the sort to say it is a core plank of their being.

Distinctly remember David Cameron during one of his relative highlights, namely full legalisation of same-sex marriage, saying it was his Christian beliefs that made him think it was the right thing to do.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

On 30/05/2023 at 11:42, Yellow Fever said:

What do they call religion - the opium the masses?

I always used to think that Constantine had 'ulterior' motives in his acceptance of Christianity. What's not to like in a salvationist creed where you tell all your slaves and the poor - don't worry about your conditions today - you'll be rewarded in the next life! Seems like a win-win for the rich and entitled to me!

More seriously - it's not just in western Europe that religion fades - same is definitely true in Japan and in China. Of course there are those that 'need' whatever creed it is (same percentage I would guess in USA - it's a human trait / prop for some) but generally more outward looking educated questioning global societies tend to be more secular.

'They' being Karl Marx, whose ideas are the opiate of a good deal of people as well....

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

'They' being Karl Marx, whose ideas are the opiate of a good deal of people as well....

Whether you agree with Marx or not his astute observation and coined phrase clearly resonates with people as having a huge ring of truth about it which is why it is so well known.

Religion - the opium of the masses.

[benchwarmer 625]

What's the difference between religion and spirituality?  In a nushell, the practice of religion is episodic, communal and quasi-political, while spirituality is (for monotheists) about their one-to-one relationship with the Creator of the universe in the here and now.

But it isn't a case of either/or.  Christians in particular need both: on one level the crucifixion of Jesus was a politically motivated execution, but for them it was much, much more than that.

Edited June 3, 2023 by benchwarmer

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

What's the difference between religion and spirituality?  In a nushell, the practice of religion is episodic, communal and quasi-political, while spirituality is (for monotheists) about their one-to-one relationship with the Creator of the universe in the here and now.

But it isn't a case of either/or.  Christians in particular need both: on one level the crucifixion of Jesus was a politically motivated execution, but for them it was much, much more than that.

I know most think spirituality is some sort of wobbly belief in the divine (do we still have to teach 'spirituality' at school) but I've always thought it was better thought of as wonder of the scale and beauty of the universe - no 'divinity' needed.

As an aside - is the Christian religion truly monotheistic - we have a God (in three parts?)  - plus load of angels including 'Arch', Seraphim and Cherubim - demons too (or fallen angels)  - in fact a whole menagerie. Are these lesser 'Gods'  or all part of the family of gods similar to Greek Gods etc. A hierarchy. Then of course in the oldest Jewish texts we have Asherah (Yahweh' wife).

Just asking 😉

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

Today's lesson on theology and philosopy: The universe is really big; some say it's also pretty. Discuss.

Edited June 3, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[ricardo 7,410]

43 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Today's lesson on theology and philosopy: The universe is really big; some say it's also pretty. Discuss.

Which one?

[benchwarmer 625]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I know most think spirituality is some sort of wobbly belief in the divine (do we still have to teach 'spirituality' at school) but I've always thought it was better thought of as wonder of the scale and beauty of the universe - no 'divinity' needed.

As an aside - is the Christian religion truly monotheistic - we have a God (in three parts?)  - plus load of angels including 'Arch', Seraphim and Cherubim - demons too (or fallen angels)  - in fact a whole menagerie. Are these lesser 'Gods'  or all part of the family of gods similar to Greek Gods etc. A hierarchy. Then of course in the oldest Jewish texts we have Asherah (Yahweh' wife).

Just asking 😉

 

Spirituality is a journey.  For me, to contemplate the scale and beauty of the universe in itself is indeed a wonderful experience but it's only half the story, because it sees the universe as 'other', as 'what's out there'.  The turning point comes when the penny drops and you realise that the universe is 'us' and that we (and it) only exist because we ourselves are being contemplated by that 'Other' which monotheists call God, Allah or Yahweh. 

 Angels are spiritual 'beings', they aren't gods.  We are 'beings' too - human beings, and we aren't gods either.  As 'beings' both are immortal, but to realise our immortality humans have to pass through death first, because of what the Old Testament calls the 'Fall from grace', as illustrated by the story of Adam and Eve.  Christianity is a natural development of Judaism, and the concept of Yahweh's wife is taken a stage further with Mary and the Virgin Birth; it was their offspring Jesus Christ who by his death opened the door for us to immortality by paying the price for that fall from grace.

It's all a process of searching, not unlike science.  Science deals with the material world, religion with the spiritual world.  How often does science think it has found the holy grail, only to discover that it has barely scratched the surface?  But the search goes on.  That's what being human is all about.

And if you're tempted to dismiss the Fall and the Virgin Birth as fairy stories, remember that science also uses human concepts eg. light as both 'waves' and 'particles' to try and describe the indescribable.

Edited June 3, 2023 by benchwarmer

[littleyellowbirdie 2,604]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Which one?

Whoosh.

 By most people's definitions, purely philosophy, or natural philosophy, or specifically physics. . By Yellow Fever's reckoning, apparently both. That was the fundamental irony of my post, which it was big of YF to laugh at, seeing as the joke was at his expense.

Edited June 3, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

57 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

Spirituality is a journey.  For me, to contemplate the scale and beauty of the universe in itself is indeed a wonderful experience but it's only half the story, because it sees the universe as 'other', as 'what's out there'.  The turning point comes when the penny drops and you realise that the universe is 'us' and that we (and it) only exist because we ourselves are being contemplated by that 'Other' which monotheists call God, Allah or Yahweh. 

 Angels are spiritual 'beings', they aren't gods.  We are 'beings' too - human beings, and we aren't gods either.  As 'beings' both are immortal, but to realise our immortality humans have to pass through death first, because of what the Old Testament calls the 'Fall from grace', as illustrated by the story of Adam and Eve.  Christianity is a natural development of Judaism, and the concept of Yahweh's wife is taken a stage further with Mary and the Virgin Birth; it was their offspring Jesus Christ who by his death opened the door for us to immortality by paying the price for that fall from grace.

It's all a process of searching, not unlike science.  Science deals with the material world, religion with the spiritual world.  How often does science think it has found the holy grail, only to discover that it has barely scratched the surface?  But the search goes on.  That's what being human is all about.

And if you're tempted to dismiss the Fall and the Virgin Birth as fairy stories, remember that science also uses human concepts eg. light as both 'waves' and 'particles' to try and describe the indescribable.

I think this where we part company - I'm happy to accept the universe as is, without any additional 'others' or reason if that's your definition of 'spirituality' be that as a theist or deist. Nor would I wish that taught as a fact at school but happy if people to come to that view themselves if it suits them. 

For me  - the difference between science and a faith is that science makes testable predictions (the wave / particle duality is really just a very successful mathematical model - no more than that). Faith is just that - faith and un-provable.

The universe is still a wonderful place though! It might not be the only one!

[benchwarmer 625]

16 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

The universe is still a wonderful place though! It might not be the only one!

There is by definition only one universe - the word means 'everything that exists'. 

Is "a very successful mathematical model" the same thing as proof?  Just asking.

I respect your viewpoint - but don't get stuck in your ways!  There is always more.

Edited June 4, 2023 by benchwarmer

[Indy 3,323]

4 hours ago, benchwarmer said:

There is by definition only one universe - the word means 'everything that exists'. 

Is "a very sucessful mathematical model" the same thing as proof?  Just asking.

I respect your viewpoint - but don't get stuck in your ways!  There is always more.

This is where religion or atheism is personal to each of us…we look up in the night sky in awe, we see it’s beauty and contemplate our standing in this tiny part of an insignificant world, which is just a particle in the massive expanse of the universe knowing life was formed on this earth millions of years ago and in 3 billion years will be no more consumed by the sun!

Belief is personal and that’s how it should be, no one has the right to preach upon you that you’re right or wrong, because in reality it’s your own view that counts. If it makes you a happy and charitable human with high moral values then whatever works is the true meaning.