Wagner

[S_81 925]

The problems clearly go a lot deeper than the Manager - we need Webber gone and need more investment - but none the less it’s hard to believe that Wagner warrants a crack at next season. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

18 minutes ago, S_81 said:

The problems clearly go a lot deeper than the Manager - we need Webber gone and need more investment - but none the less it’s hard to believe that Wagner warrants a crack at next season. 

And yet the prevailing opinion of fans was the anyone could do better than Smith, yet we're doing worse.

Sack the fans.

[canarydan23 4,143]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

And yet the prevailing opinion of fans was the anyone could do better than Smith, yet we're doing worse.

Sack the fans.

Yes, upgrading Smith should have been unbelievably easy.

Even that appears to have been beyond Webber.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

9 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Yes, upgrading Smith should have been unbelievably easy.

Even that appears to have been beyond Webber.

On what evidence? Wagner has a record of Championship promotion and Premier League survival just like Smith. Both can be considered to have superior track records as managers in English football than Farke.

Smith outperformed Farke with the same squad last season and Smith has outperformed Wagner this season with the same squad, minus Ramsey, who was here because of Smith.

Be refreshing to hear some fans show a bit of humility and admit they derailed us this season if promotion was more important than 'getting are club back' after all.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[TheBaldOne66 722]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

On what evidence? Wagner has a record of Championship promotion and Premier League survival just like Smith. Both can be considered to have superior track records as managers in English football than Farke.

Smith outperformed Farke with the same squad last season and Smith has outperformed Wagner this season with the same squad, minus Ramsey, who was here because of Smith.

Be refreshing to hear some fans show a bit of humility and admit they derailed us this season.

How did the fans derail us? They didn’t sack Smith ffs!

And you seem to have forgotten Smith turned on the fans too!

[canarydan23 4,143]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

On what evidence? Wagner has a record of Championship promotion and Premier League survival just like Smith. Both can be considered to have superior track records as managers than Farke.

Not really. Farke has a superior record to Wagner in the Bundesliga and the Championship to Wagner, Wagner has a superior record in the EPL. Farke has a superior record to Smith in the Championship, Smith has a superior record to Farke in the EPL; however, there is a huge caveat in that Farke was only ever in charge of squads that were comparatively cobbled together compared to Smith, which had just the odd couple of hundred million spent on it whilst he was there.

But like I said in the other thread, if Smith and Wagner are such capable coaches, and they were/are in charge of the squad with the biggest wage budget and one of the most expensively assembled, that were roundly considered by bookies and pundits to be on track for a 1st or 2nd placed finish, why were we languishing in 10th place before tonight's game?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

1 minute ago, TheBaldOne66 said:

How did the fans derail us? They didn’t sack Smith ffs!

And you seem to have forgotten Smith turned on the fans too!

They forced it by making everything toxic since Smith dropped out of the playoffs and refusing to allow that the fact we'd been at the top might mean we had a chance to recover. Smith had to go because the fans forced it with toxicity. And we've got worse since, hardly ever being in the playoffs since, underlining Smith was never the problem.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 3,906]

17 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

And yet the prevailing opinion of fans was the anyone could do better than Smith, yet we're doing worse.

Sack the fans.

In terms of points per game, we're doing better. 

However, I wasn't overly keen on Wagner and the jury is still very much out.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Not really. Farke has a superior record to Wagner in the Bundesliga and the Championship to Wagner, Wagner has a superior record in the EPL. Farke has a superior record to Smith in the Championship, Smith has a superior record to Farke in the EPL; however, there is a huge caveat in that Farke was only ever in charge of squads that were comparatively cobbled together compared to Smith, which had just the odd couple of hundred million spent on it whilst he was there.

But like I said in the other thread, if Smith and Wagner are such capable coaches, and they were/are in charge of the squad with the biggest wage budget and one of the most expensively assembled, that were roundly considered by bookies and pundits to be on track for a 1st or 2nd placed finish, why were we languishing in 10th place before tonight's game?

Championship is second tier in English football. Both Smith and Wagner survived at the top level in English football; Farke never did, not by a longshot. And Smiths effort was slightly better than Farke's on points even though he had an 11 games with two points handicap thanks to Farke and without Buendia either.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,143]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Championship is second tier in the English football. Both Smith and Farke survived at that level; Farke never did, not by a longshot. And Smiths effort was slightly better than Farke's on points even though he had an 11 game handicap thanks to Farke.

Erm, what?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Erm, what?

Muddled some names. Edited. Been a long day.

Bottom line is we've gone backwards with the only change being the manager, so fans were wrong to force a change for some daft, vague idea of eye tests.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,143]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Muddled some names. Edited. Been a long day.

Is that why you missed the bit about Farke's superior Bundesliga record relative to Wagner?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

Just now, canarydan23 said:

Is that why you missed the bit about Farke's superior Bundesliga record relative to Wagner?

What good is his Bundesliga record at an English club?

[canarydan23 4,143]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

What good is his Bundesliga record at an English club?

Nothing really, it's just evidence of your blatant cognitive dissonance and refusal to listen to reason or nuance.

[norfolkngood 1,098]

Webber was good when he was trying to prove his worth as soon as he started to believe the hype the i am leaving and owners begged me to stay stuff it has gone wrong every since 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Nothing really, it's just evidence of your blatant cognitive dissonance and refusal to listen to reason or nuance.

Not at all. Farke's position was untenable because fans wouldn't tolerate persistently yoyoing. that was an option because Farke was as excellent at Championship level as he was hopeless at Premier League level. Quite possibly we could have carried on yoyoing indefinitely. I'd have been okay with that, but too many weren't for that to be allowed to carry on, hence the gamble on Smith.

And Smith was a gamble on survival, with the backstop of being in with a shout of promotion even if we were relegated.

And we were still in with a shout even when he was sacked, having even been right up there at the top under him earlier in the season. But not good enough because of the 'eye test', yet other than a couple of epic performances immediately on Wagner's arrival we've gone backwards, and the fact is that's most likely because we had a needless change midseason forced by malcontents with no patience.

[Kingston Yellow 226]

19 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

if Smith and Wagner are such capable coaches, and they were/are in charge of the squad with the biggest wage budget and one of the most expensively assembled, that were roundly considered by bookies and pundits to be on track for a 1st or 2nd placed finish, why were we languishing in 10th place before tonight's game?

Errrr... Webber?

[Kingston Yellow 226]

9 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

Webber was good when he was trying to prove his worth as soon as he started to believe the hype the i am leaving and owners begged me to stay stuff it has gone wrong every since 

Sort of.  Webber was good when he had a decent recruitment team around him.  It's been a disaster since 

[canarydan23 4,143]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not at all. Farke's position was untenable because fans wouldn't tolerate persistently yoyoing. that was an option because Farke was as excellent at Championship level as he was hopeless at Premier League level. Quite possibly we could have carried on yoyoing indefinitely. I'd have been okay with that, but too many weren't for that to be allowed to carry on, hence the gamble on Smith.

And Smith was a gamble on survival, with the backstop of being in with a shout of promotion even if we were relegated.

And we were still in with a shout even when he was sacked, having even been right up there at the top under him earlier in the season. But not good enough because of the 'eye test', yet other than a couple of epic performances immediately on Wagner's arrival we've gone backwards, and the fact is that's most likely because we had a needless change midseason forced by malcontents with no patience.

So Farke's 0.45PPG in 22/23 was hopeless, but Smith's 0.63PPG, despite the fact that when he had a much easier average opposition league position than Farke's 11, isn't?

You see what I mean? About how you just ignore stuff that isn't convenient to your opinion?

Oh, and if we'd have continued on Smith's PPG, we'd be on 60 points right now. And that takes into account his early season run of good results. If we'd have continued on his PPG for his final 10 games, we'd be on 53 points right now.

So despite it being pretty abject under Wagner, it's STILL an improvement on the turgid garbage we were served up under Smith.

[Captain Holt 522]

Out.

[canarydan23 4,143]

4 minutes ago, Kingston Yellow said:

Errrr... Webber?

This is the correct answer. But @littleyellowbirdie will twist himself into all kinds of entertaining knots to not reach this conclusion. He thinks it's our fault.

[sgncfc 1,264]

Wagner is equally clueless and has shown nothing so far that indicates he can get this club success. Granted, his players are not as good as everyone seems to think they are but how we are not in the playoffs is mind boggling. Putting players in their best positions would be a start, but he doesn't seem to want to do that.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

You have to ask yourself whether Farke was even really as good as all that, or whether he was just lucky to have an amazing combo in Pukki and Buendia. Both of his promotion seasons he had Buendia, and his Premier League showings were generally better in the first showing with Buendia than the second showing without.

Edited April 19, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,143]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You have to ask yourself whether Farke was even really as good as all that. Both of his promotion seasons he had Buendia, and his Premier League showings were generally better in the first showing with Buendia than the second showing without.

Lol.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

3 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

So Farke's 0.45PPG in 22/23 was hopeless, but Smith's 0.63PPG, despite the fact that when he had a much easier average opposition league position than Farke's 11, isn't?

You see what I mean? About how you just ignore stuff that isn't convenient to your opinion?

Oh, and if we'd have continued on Smith's PPG, we'd be on 60 points right now. And that takes into account his early season run of good results. If we'd have continued on his PPG for his final 10 games, we'd be on 53 points right now.

So despite it being pretty abject under Wagner, it's STILL an improvement on the turgid garbage we were served up under Smith.

I did an analysis picking out the same 11 teams a long time back, and Smith was still better than Farke that season against the same teams.

[king canary 7,705]

13 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not at all. Farke's position was untenable because fans wouldn't tolerate persistently yoyoing. that was an option because Farke was as excellent at Championship level as he was hopeless at Premier League level. Quite possibly we could have carried on yoyoing indefinitely. I'd have been okay with that, but too many weren't for that to be allowed to carry on, hence the gamble on Smith.

And Smith was a gamble on survival, with the backstop of being in with a shout of promotion even if we were relegated.

And we were still in with a shout even when he was sacked, having even been right up there at the top under him earlier in the season. But not good enough because of the 'eye test', yet other than a couple of epic performances immediately on Wagner's arrival we've gone backwards, and the fact is that's most likely because we had a needless change midseason forced by malcontents with no patience.

You paint such a bizarre picture of our club sometimes.

In your world it seems like Webber, Smith, Wagner, Farke are all just powerless actors buffeted this way and that at the demands of the fans, with little to no role to play on their own decisions or fates. 

[Capt. Pants 4,332]

Webber has now succeeded in appointing two very ordinary coaches, neither as good as never mind better than Farke.

[canarydan23 4,143]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I did an analysis picking out the same 11 teams a long time back, and Smith was still better than Farke that season against the same teams.

I'm sure you did, and with your aforementioned inability to apply logic and nuance, I'm sure you're findings were exactly as you wanted them to be.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

You paint such a bizarre picture of our club sometimes.

In your world it seems like Webber, Smith, Wagner, Farke are all just powerless actors buffeted this way and that at the demands of the fans, with little to no role to play on their own decisions or fates. 

Not powerless, just with a huge number of factors out of their control that seldom seem to come into mitigation in the sack <insert name here> . The fetish for sacking people is looking for simplistic answers to complicated problems.

[canarydan23 4,143]

Just now, Capt. Pants said:

Webber has now succeeded in appointing two very ordinary coaches, neither as good as never mind better than Farke.

I mean, it's a point so obvious that it shouldn't need stating, and yet we have people (or hopefully by now, a person), making themselves look all kinds of silly in an effort to make out that Farke was actually crap all along and Smith and Wagner are brilliant and so much better and Webber has assembled a brilliant squad (square that logic off), if only the pesky fans would just let them do their work.