Is sacking Smith an admission of failure?

[OnDaBall 137]

Is Webber keeping Smith because he thinks it's what is best for the club, or because he doesn't want to admit his appointment was yet another of his mistakes?

Firstly is it an actual failure, that Webber should be held account for? Sometimes a manager just isn't the right fit for a club, it's nobodies fault, the manager hasn't become poor over night, it just doesn't work.

I'm sure at the time of his appointment most of us thought it was a safe and boring choice, rather than a bad one, others were appalled at the sacking of Farke or at least the timing and manner of it, so would probably have not liked whoever we'd gone for.

For me it always seemed like a poor choice time wise, Smith had just been sacked from his dream job and jumped straight to us, maybe a longer break for him and a fresh start with us in the summer would have worked out better.

Smith's record before us was ok, nothing brilliant, but on paper you would expect him to be able to get the most from any squad of players, so I wouldn't say his appointment was a poor decision at the time. Obviously looking back it just hasn't worked out, should Webber be crucified for hiring him? In my opinion no, however if he fails to act in removing Smith if things don't miraculously turn around soon, then yes Webber should be held accountable and probably go too 

[Norfolk Dan 308]

I do wonder if the stuffing was just kicked so hard out post the Brentford result, followed by DS taking over and noone fans or.plays able to make and move in a positive direction. To this day that for me is the issue, nothing identifiable as positive to grasp. Yes that might be in sight one game and lost the next, much like DF first year, where you could see what is being attempted but never really happening. We just need something to believe in, sadly my view remains. DF should have taken us down again or got that lucky miracle, then season end make a decision. Much cleaner for everyone, and honourable.  We are left with no thanks to DF, and a sorry state of meh with DS, who has religation over his head, not being able to turn the team around in the Prem and clearly no able to turn them around in the chumps.... 

This is why the whole thing is so flat... We need a jump start.... Anyone know if we can reveal Hucks again on Boxing day just for the energy boost!? 

[lake district canary 4,533]

27 minutes ago, OnDaBall said:

Is Webber keeping Smith because he thinks it's what is best for the club, or because he doesn't want to admit his appointment was yet another of his mistakes?

Firstly is it an actual failure, that Webber should be held account for? Sometimes a manager just isn't the right fit for a club, it's nobodies fault, the manager hasn't become poor over night, it just doesn't work.

I'm sure at the time of his appointment most of us thought it was a safe and boring choice, rather than a bad one, others were appalled at the sacking of Farke or at least the timing and manner of it, so would probably have not liked whoever we'd gone for.

For me it always seemed like a poor choice time wise, Smith had just been sacked from his dream job and jumped straight to us, maybe a longer break for him and a fresh start with us in the summer would have worked out better.

Smith's record before us was ok, nothing brilliant, but on paper you would expect him to be able to get the most from any squad of players, so I wouldn't say his appointment was a poor decision at the time. Obviously looking back it just hasn't worked out, should Webber be crucified for hiring him? In my opinion no, however if he fails to act in removing Smith if things don't miraculously turn around soon, then yes Webber should be held accountable and probably go too 

Three things come to mind. In sacking Farke, Webber maybe had -

1) Someone exciting lined up (maybe knutsen) who changed their minds

2) Thought he had got Lampard (as if that is anything to get excited about)

3) Got lucky that Smith turned up after all else failed.

Whichever way you look at it, it's a failure (imo), badly thought through and badly executed.

It was also, imo, a decision that changed the club forever. Farke could have been a manager for the ages - a long term manager who developed the club over maybe ten or more years - with ups and downs, but always with his unique style and ability to play good football at the heart of it.  Yes, ya da ya da, I know the PL was a problem, but as we've seen, its a problem for the club, not just the manager.

The club lost me at that point and it is taking a while to get me back. I can't buy into Smith just because he is manager - and I know that goes against everything I've said in the past about supporting whoever is in charge - it is just different now - and that is down to Webber and his failure to get someone in that made any sense to the project we were told about where head coaches could be changed without upsetting that project.

So yes, sacking Smith would be an admission of failure, but it would also be an opportunity to revamp the original project and get a head coach in that is a worthy successor to Farke, rather than what we got - a punt on someone mediocre who just happened to be available.  I still harbour hope that Smith can turn it round, but it looks unlikely at the moment.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

My stance is very much to give a manager three transfer windows, as that was essentially what Farke needed before his initial signings all clicked (Vrancic and Stiepermann were very much "second season guys"). So as much as some of the football at the moment is making me think trimming my pubes with a blowtorch is about as entertaining I'm not personally keen on the notion of changing the duration of time I'm willing to give a manager unless something absolutely toxic is going on in the dressing room or the club's financial future is threatened by the manager's actions/demands. Smith has basically had only one window so far, as he did not have any purchases when he joined us before the January one as the budget had been spent.

That, on a merely personal level, is a double standard I'm not keen on following. So as much as I understand the irritation and desire to see Smith gone, it's not one I share yet and I still stand by the "give him three windows" criterion.

Totally agree with Lakey that Farke was a manager who could have built an epoch and I'd said on here I wanted him to do similar - in fact, I know I didn't want him sacked even when he was. He really could have done for us what the likes of Guy Roux did at Auxerre, Volker Finke did at Freiburg (and that had a couple of relegations), or indeed Thomas Schaaf at Werder Bremen. And I totally agree that Farke's demise was a symptom of the English football environment in which Norwich is and the club's relationship to it, and less due to his shortcomings. 

So, yes, I do think sacking Smith would be an admission of failure. I think it would be compounding weak judgement on the merits of the squad assembled (and by definition the signings, sales and appraisal of the existing squad) before Farke's second Premier League season. And it would compound judgement on the decision to sack Farke.

Edited December 24, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Petriix 2,839]

Very well put @TheGunnShow, even if I largely disagree.

I get your argument about transfer windows, but I don't think it's a reasonable comparison. Farke took over a mid-table Championship club in need of a serious overhaul. Smith took over just 11 games after the club's biggest ever points haul which was immediately followed by its biggest ever transfer spend.

I'd say it's a huge admission of failure if you claim that this squad requires two more transfer windows to get into the right place for Smithball to begin to click. By that time half of them will have left on free transfers and we'll have to slash the wage bill just to balance the books. I can't imagine that the overall quality of the squad is going to improve in the foreseeable future so this really is the best (and probably only) shot.

The fact is things were going ok up to the end of September, but we've been in free fall since. Pretending otherwise is basically putting your head in the sand. When you consider our recent form combined with Smith's overall tenure you can see how badly it's going. Really it's that brief winning streak that was the outlier to an otherwise consistently poor level of performance and results.

Yes, we're in the playoff places, but we won't be for long unless there's a significant upturn in results.

[shefcanary 2,410]

@OnDaBall agree 100% with this. To sack Smith now is an admission of failure to Webber, also i think he feels he owes something to Smith given the circumstances of his appointment. Webber won't move until nearer relegation than promotion.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

3 hours ago, Petriix said:

Very well put @TheGunnShow, even if I largely disagree.

I get your argument about transfer windows, but I don't think it's a reasonable comparison. Farke took over a mid-table Championship club in need of a serious overhaul. Smith took over just 11 games after the club's biggest ever points haul which was immediately followed by its biggest ever transfer spend.

I'd say it's a huge admission of failure if you claim that this squad requires two more transfer windows to get into the right place for Smithball to begin to click. By that time half of them will have left on free transfers and we'll have to slash the wage bill just to balance the books. I can't imagine that the overall quality of the squad is going to improve in the foreseeable future so this really is the best (and probably only) shot.

The fact is things were going ok up to the end of September, but we've been in free fall since. Pretending otherwise is basically putting your head in the sand. When you consider our recent form combined with Smith's overall tenure you can see how badly it's going. Really it's that brief winning streak that was the outlier to an otherwise consistently poor level of performance and results.

Yes, we're in the playoff places, but we won't be for long unless there's a significant upturn in results.

See some of this and agree with the last two paragraphs fully, however I think a lot of it depends on how you see the departure of Buendia and Skipp - who were IIRC first and second in the Barry Butler when Farke won his second Championship. We lost the main supply line to Pukki (not to mention such a chief source of bother to opposition players that his presence alone would drag another opposing player nearer to him, and create space for another attacking midfielder, i.e. Cantwell, to cause his own brand of carnage) and we lost an excellent, disciplined midfielder who would happily clog up the works, get the ball, and give it to those who could play. Then we didn't find a replacement in the Premier League, going for a more mixed midfield in the hope each could provide a bit more across the board, and a promising Poundland Pirlo in Billy Gilmour. We all know how THAT turned out.

I would say re. your third paragraph that it's an admission of failure re. the transfer strategy and that big spend, but by definition that's not really Smith's lookout. He's just gotta work with it. Rashica's on loan, Tzolis is working his way back from injury, Gilmour, Normann, and Kabak aren't here, PLM's been sold, so really there's only Sargent who's stuck around and is making a good fist of it from that big spend. Sacking Smith there really is the admission that this window failed.

I don't think we as fans quite realised the extent to which we depended on both Buendia and Skipp when Farke fashioned that second Championship-winning side. Buendia gave us a lot defensively too, when he finally got his head screwed on and learned to work hard off the ball. And I think this has flavoured our differing views. If I understand your point, you think we should be fine-tuning from a considerably higher starting point than when Farke started. I would say we're close to having to rebuild from one - especially, as you say, that we have a lot of contracts running out.

Right, time to make corned beef hash.

Edited December 24, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[ged in the onion bag 855]

29 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

See some of this and agree with the last two paragraphs fully, however I think a lot of it depends on how you see the departure of Buendia and Skipp - who were IIRC first and second in the Barry Butler when Farke won his second Championship. We lost the main supply line to Pukki (not to mention such a chief source of bother to opposition players that his presence alone would drag another opposing player nearer to him, and create space for another attacking midfielder, i.e. Cantwell, to cause his own brand of carnage) and we lost an excellent, disciplined midfielder who would happily clog up the works, get the ball, and give it to those who could play. Then we didn't find a replacement in the Premier League, going for a more mixed midfield in the hope each could provide a bit more across the board, and a promising Poundland Pirlo in Billy Gilmour. We all know how THAT turned out.

I would say re. your third paragraph that it's an admission of failure re. the transfer strategy and that big spend, but by definition that's not really Smith's lookout. He's just gotta work with it. Rashica's on loan, Tzolis is working his way back from injury, Gilmour, Normann, and Kabak aren't here, PLM's been sold, so really there's only Sargent who's stuck around and is making a good fist of it from that big spend. Sacking Smith there really is the admission that this window failed.

I don't think we as fans quite realised the extent to which we depended on both Buendia and Skipp when Farke fashioned that second Championship-winning side. Buendia gave us a lot defensively too, when he finally got his head screwed on and learned to work hard off the ball. And I think this has flavoured our differing views. If I understand your point, you think we should be fine-tuning from a considerably higher starting point than when Farke started. I would say we're close to having to rebuild from one - especially, as you say, that we have a lot of contracts running out.

Right, time to make corned beef hash.

Pretty spot on this!   We have to start again, albeit from a better position than when Farke arrived.    For me, promotions are about timing and this all failed because we went up a season too early!   Another year and the team and squad would have been better equipped before we jumped on the gravy train…. Now the club and most fans think the money from the EPL is everything.    The desperation for it is as embarrassing as an EPL league campaign! 
 

Webber appears lost by the whole process, it needs new impetus and Smith isn’t the gaffer to get the best out of players.     
 

 

[TheBaldOne66 690]

4 hours ago, lake district canary said:

Three things come to mind. In sacking Farke, Webber maybe had -

1) Someone exciting lined up (maybe knutsen) who changed their minds

2) Thought he had got Lampard (as if that is anything to get excited about)

3) Got lucky that Smith turned up after all else failed.

Whichever way you look at it, it's a failure (imo), badly thought through and badly executed.

It was also, imo, a decision that changed the club forever. Farke could have been a manager for the ages - a long term manager who developed the club over maybe ten or more years - with ups and downs, but always with his unique style and ability to play good football at the heart of it.  Yes, ya da ya da, I know the PL was a problem, but as we've seen, its a problem for the club, not just the manager.

The club lost me at that point and it is taking a while to get me back. I can't buy into Smith just because he is manager - and I know that goes against everything I've said in the past about supporting whoever is in charge - it is just different now - and that is down to Webber and his failure to get someone in that made any sense to the project we were told about where head coaches could be changed without upsetting that project.

So yes, sacking Smith would be an admission of failure, but it would also be an opportunity to revamp the original project and get a head coach in that is a worthy successor to Farke, rather than what we got - a punt on someone mediocre who just happened to be available.  I still harbour hope that Smith can turn it round, but it looks unlikely at the moment.

Lakey mentioning Farke shocker! 
 

He’s gone and not coming back even if it is on your Christmas list, Santa cannot produce miracles 🤣🤣

[Petriix 2,839]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

I don't think we as fans quite realised the extent to which we depended on both Buendia and Skipp when Farke fashioned that second Championship-winning side.

I've seen this point argued a lot, especially by @Parma Ham's gone mouldybut I don't fully subscribe to the idea we were a one or two man team. Yes, they were significant - I actually rated Skipp as slightly more important than Buendia but both were integral to our play.

I do think Webber got the transfer window badly wrong, then made Farke the scapegoat. But that's not totally relevant right now. The bigger issue is our recent downturn - since September.

While the squad isn't as good as in 2020-21, it's not so bad that we can tolerate being 16th in the 10 game form table. That in itself is enough to warrant sacking Smith. Then you consider our awful last season which Smith managed for the majority.

For me the yardstick should be how this squad would look playing Farke's 4-2-3-1. Basically replace Buendia with Nunez and Skipp with Gibbs and the rest are still here. Sargent is a great backup striker in addition. In my opinion all the tactical tinkering then returning to the 4-3-3 has taken us nowhere, and that absolutely falls on Smith. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

41 minutes ago, Petriix said:

I've seen this point argued a lot, especially by @Parma Ham's gone mouldybut I don't fully subscribe to the idea we were a one or two man team. Yes, they were significant - I actually rated Skipp as slightly more important than Buendia but both were integral to our play.

I do think Webber got the transfer window badly wrong, then made Farke the scapegoat. But that's not totally relevant right now. The bigger issue is our recent downturn - since September.

While the squad isn't as good as in 2020-21, it's not so bad that we can tolerate being 16th in the 10 game form table. That in itself is enough to warrant sacking Smith. Then you consider our awful last season which Smith managed for the majority.

For me the yardstick should be how this squad would look playing Farke's 4-2-3-1. Basically replace Buendia with Nunez and Skipp with Gibbs and the rest are still here. Sargent is a great backup striker in addition. In my opinion all the tactical tinkering then returning to the 4-3-3 has taken us nowhere, and that absolutely falls on Smith. 

To be fair, weren't they literally first and second in the Butler that year? Buendia definitely won it - was Skipp second? I'll accept that there were plenty of good performances, but if you lose your first two, it can be quite discombobulating.

Personally, I'd go Christmas tree when everyone's fit, and depending on the bench there's always a chance to put a winger on if we need to. That should free up the full-backs a bit more

[Midlands Yellow 3,995]

Of course it is, next question. 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Midlands Yellow

[Monty13 2,235]

We apparently bought loads of weapons last summer. The stated aim for this year is promotion. We’ve been told repeatedly this squad is good enough for top 2.

Blackburn was the culmination of 18 months of multiple failures. A lot of the crowd either skipping or turned against the manager, turgid football after months and months of preparation, terrible home record, closer to relegation that automatics and new signings/squad in general looking well short of requirements. 

Whether anyone at the the club has the humility to admit it, while this season isn’t quite a complete disaster (yet), the failures are obvious.