Immigration hits all time record high

[king canary 7,705]

17 hours ago, Herman said:

These last few years have proved that the right wing don't want to help anyone or anything, foreigners, Britons nor Britain. It's all about deflection, whataboutery, yeah-buttery, nimbyism and numerous other ways to do nothing nor offer any solution. The sooner the country bins these greedy, selfish and annoying clowns the better.

Yes. It was interesting how quickly people on the right in this country suddenly started caring about Jewish people when it was a good stick to beat Labour with. Now it isn't so much, they don't get so much support. 

You can see it happening too with the right trying to pretend to be friends to feminists with gender critical beliefs when actually they couldn't give less of a **** about women most of the time. 

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

15 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not even close.

Why are you so certain ?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

15 hours ago, Well b back said:

Bribery and corruption ? At least for once our government can honestly say they are among the world leaders.

@Yellow fever

Transparency international's global corruption perception has us among the better countries, not the worst; you'd be better off questioning why @Well b back is so certain if you're only going to challenge the certainty of one of us for unfalsiable claims without furnishing evidence.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

@Yellow fever

Transparency international's global corruption perception has us among the better countries, not the worst; you'd be better off questioning why @Well b back is so certain if you're only going to challenge the certainty of one of us for unfalsiable claims without furnishing evidence.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

It can be measured many way - this link only estimates PERCEIVED public sector corruption etc. The point is that many people don't look at what is starring them in the face as its accepted - until it isn't as in the PPE scandal. Then again, the best kind in not perceived to be at all but normal!

It's called complacency.

Edited December 6, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

It can be measured many way - this link only estimates PERCEIVED public sector corruption etc. The point is that many people don't look at what is starring them in the face as its accepted - until it isn't as in the PPE scandal. Then again, the best kind in not perceived to be at all but normal!

It's called complacency.

Let's just pretend you're not being argumentative for the sake of it for a moment.

So what measure do you want to use? Kind of the point of perception is the stuff you're aware of; the stuff that doesn't get detected can't be measured because it's not detected. Given as a country we have lots more anti-corruption measures than most of the world, coupled with the measures of perceived corruption, it's a safe bet that we're at the better end of the spectrum regarding global corruption, rather than 'world leaders' leading the pack in corrupt practises, ahead of most of the Middle East, Africa, and Eastern Europe. As for PPE, it's being reported, challenged, and impacting government, and even causing a Lord to stand down, unlike large parts of the world where this sort of thing is accepted norms, supporting my view that we do have a pretty straight bat as far as corruption is concerned compared to many; definitely not 'world leaders' in my view.

Let's turn the question on its head and ask you why you can be so certain that Well b Backs claim is correct that you haven't bothered challenging that, shall we? What say you?

Edited December 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,325]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Let's just pretend you're not being argumentative for the sake of it for a moment.

So what measure do you want to use? Kind of the point of perception is the stuff you're aware of; the stuff that doesn't get detected can't be measured because it's not detected. Given as a country we have lots more anti-corruption measures than most of the world, coupled with the measures of perceived corruption, it's a safe bet that we're at the better end of the spectrum regarding global corruption, rather than 'world leaders' leading the pack in corrupt practises, ahead of most of the Middle East, Africa, and Eastern Europe.

Let's turn the question on its head and ask you why you can be so certain that Well b Backs claim is correct that you haven't bothered challenging that, shall we? What say you?

Try reading Private Eye

[Herman 9,859]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Let's just pretend you're not being argumentative for the sake of it for a moment.

 

Sorry to interrupt, but come on......😂

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Just now, Herman said:

Sorry to interrupt, but come on......😂

Oh do f**k off.

[Well b back 3,309]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Oh do f**k off.

That’s the spirit

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Just now, Well b back said:

That’s the spirit

Too  damn right. Typical sniping remark from the sidelines as always.

[horsefly 4,325]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Too  damn right. Typical sniping remark from the sidelines as always.

Perhaps I should post the series of violently abusive messages you sent to my personal message box. Would you prefer to be called the kettle or the pot?

[Indy 3,344]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Oh do f**k off.

LYB, no need matey, it’s a forum with lots of different people with opinions. We all see things differently but need to respect each other….. you’re a decent guy, if you can be a little more understanding of others we’d debate and interact in a civil manner.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Just now, Indy said:

LYB, no need matey, it’s a forum with lots of different people with opinions. We all see things differently but need to respect each other….. you’re a decent guy, if you can be a little more understanding of others we’d debate and interact in a civil manner.

Actually, there was need. I was asking Yellow Fever a perfectly fair question and Herman chipped in with his usual pointless snide remarks. Guy can seriously go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

12 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Let's just pretend you're not being argumentative for the sake of it for a moment.

So what measure do you want to use? Kind of the point of perception is the stuff you're aware of; the stuff that doesn't get detected can't be measured because it's not detected. Given as a country we have lots more anti-corruption measures than most of the world, coupled with the measures of perceived corruption, it's a safe bet that we're at the better end of the spectrum regarding global corruption, rather than 'world leaders' leading the pack in corrupt practises, ahead of most of the Middle East, Africa, and Eastern Europe. As for PPE, it's being reported, challenged, and impacting government, and even causing a Lord to stand down, unlike large parts of the world where this sort of thing is accepted norms, supporting my view that we do have a pretty straight bat as far as corruption is concerned compared to many; definitely not 'world leaders' in my view.

Let's turn the question on its head and ask you why you can be so certain that Well b Backs claim is correct that you haven't bothered challenging that, shall we? What say you?

It is you that are arguing - I didn't proffer any 'position' or ranking of the UK in any corruption league perceived or otherwise just questioned why you were so certain - given that you can't 'know'.

What I do know is that it exists here as it exists elsewhere but manifests itself in different ways and guises. Occasionally as in PPE or the BAE Saudi bribes it comes spectacularly to light.

Much of so the called corruption however is either so commonplace we turn a blind eye and don't recognize it as such, or it is so deep that we never know. I gave some examples. Heaven help you if you want to trade and sell in your CPTTP countries though!

I note even in 'perceived' ranking we were only 11th (USA 27th) and well behind some of our peers. 

 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

5 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It is you that are arguing - I didn't proffer any 'position' or ranking of the UK in any corruption league perceived or otherwise just questioned why you were so certain - given that you can't 'know'.

What I do know is that it exists here as it exists elsewhere but manifests itself in different ways and guises. Occasionally as in PPE or the BAE Saudi bribes it comes spectacularly to light.

Much of so the called corruption however is either so commonplace we turn a blind eye and don't recognize it as such, or it is so deep that we never know. I gave some examples. Heaven help you if you want to trade and sell in your CPTTP countries though!

I note even in 'perceived' ranking we were only 11th (USA 27th) and well behind some of our peers. 

 

 

11th out of how many countries globally?

Excuse me: Well b back made a very strong and unsupported statement that is obviously untrue and I pointed out, where you chipped in challenging how 'I could be so certain'. I've explained how you can be far more certain that we're at the better end of things than the worse end of things globally, so maybe you can get your act together and find some evidence supporting Well b Back's view that we're towards the end of the worst in the world if you really want to double down on defending his incorrect statement.

Edited December 6, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Indy 3,344]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Actually, there was need. I was asking Yellow Fever a perfectly fair question and Herman chipped in with his usual pointless snide remarks. Guy can seriously go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Matey, we have had our differences as I’ve had with Horsey and others, you’re all decent posters and Herman is very much a good guy too, ultimately we all pretty much agree just the points across are at cross purposes. I understand peoples frustration but it’s far more easy to be civil to each other than resort to foul language. You’re a decent poster LYB…. 👍

Edited December 6, 2022 by Indy

[Herman 9,859]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Actually, there was need. I was asking Yellow Fever a perfectly fair question and Herman chipped in with his usual pointless snide remarks. Guy can seriously go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

I'm sorry you took it that way. It was meant as a light hearted joke. Nevermind.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

Just now, Herman said:

I'm sorry you took it that way. It was meant as a light hearted joke. Nevermind.

Sorry, in that case. It just does seem like every time I say anything someone challenges it, then I argue it, then someone else chips in with something else.

[Indy 3,344]

For my tupence worth of view, we can’t change other countries corruption and we can’t challenge them, but we can and should in our own country, doesn’t matter to me right wing, left wing, Conservative or Labour, they are only in power to serve us, to spend our money wisely and to do the best for our country, if like this PPE scandal come to the surface it should be fully addressed, those involved should be made to step down and investigated, after all it’s your money and shouldn’t go to line the pockets of those in power or their friends. 👍💚💛

Edited December 6, 2022 by Indy

[horsefly 4,325]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Sorry, in that case. It just does seem like every time I say anything someone challenges it, then I argue it, then someone else chips in with something else.

Perhaps that's because this is a forum and not a private conversation between two posters alone. Best not to post on social media websites if you don't want others to exercise their right to comment.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

For my tupence worth of view, we can’t change other countries corruption and we can’t challenge them, but we can and should in our own country, doesn’t matter to me right wing, left wing, Conservative or Labour, they are only in power to serve us, to spend our money wisely and to do the best for our country, if like this PPE scandal come to the surface it should be fully addressed, those involved should be made to step down and investigated, after all it’s your money and should go to line the pockets of those in power or their friends. 👍💚💛

Totally. I only took issue with Well b back's comment because that paints a far worse picture than is the reality, not that I thought we can all relax because everything's hunky dory.

And as a general comment, the quality of posting on here is really good, which I guess is why I keep making the mistake of pitching in with some alternative angles from time to time.

[Yellow Fever 3,851]

18 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

11th out of how many countries globally?

Excuse me: Well b back made a very strong and unsupported statement that is obviously untrue and I pointed out, where you chipped in challenging how 'I could be so certain'. I've explained how you can be far more certain that we're at the better end of things than the worse end of things globally, so maybe you can get your act together and find some evidence supporting Well b Back's view that we're towards the end of the worst in the world if you really want to double down on defending his incorrect statement.

You do take things as black and white.

I neither supported or condoned WBB's statement. It was if anything an understandable knee-jerk reaction to the latest in a long line of recent Tory scandals / corruptions. I took it as such, non-literally and it didn't need any further deeper analysis in an autistic fashion. WBB had made his point.

However - take the UK - where do we start - London - insider trading, washing 'dirty' money, the Russian 'influence' (arh Johnson), betting fixes (see Toney) and so on - that's all outside the 'perceived' public spending index you quote.

All I am pointing out is that it is complacent in the extreme to think (extremely naively) that we are 'clean' for no other reason than we don't bother to look too deep or think we're good just because we don't have to bribe policemen daily. They are just the little fish.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think we have to accept that in the unproven case against Baroness Mone, that if her intention was to make money out of organising company bids for PPE contacts, then she is lower than a snake's belly.

What Berlusconi does in Italy is up to the people of Italy and possibly the EU. FIFA and others appear shady.

But a British politician is very much answerable and I would hope a criminal case can be brought against her if there is sufficient evidence.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

You do take things as black and white.

I neither supported or condoned WBB's statement. It was if anything an understandable knee-jerk reaction to the latest in a long line of recent Tory scandals / corruptions. I took it as such, non-literally and it didn't need any further deeper analysis in an autistic fashion. WBB had made his point.

However - take the UK - where do we start - London - insider trading, washing 'dirty' money, the Russian 'influence' (arh Johnson), betting fixes (see Toney) and so on - that's all outside the 'perceived' public spending index you quote.

All I am pointing out is that it is complacent in the extreme to think (extremely naively) that we are 'clean' for no other reason than we don't bother to look too deep or think we're good just because we don't have to bribe policemen daily. They are just the little fish.

And yet I had suggested nothing of the sort. I get that the Conservatives aren't too popular around here, and that's fine and dandy with me, but there's actually a lot more to the UK than just the Conservative party; the UK is nothing like a 'world leader' for corruption, it is nothing even close to being so, and the suggestion isn't even remotely funny given how much has gone into ensuring we do have checks and balances to ensure that it doesn't become one .

[Creative Midfielder 2,004]

On 06/12/2022 at 13:58, littleyellowbirdie said:

@Yellow fever

Transparency international's global corruption perception has us among the better countries, not the worst; you'd be better off questioning why @Well b back is so certain if you're only going to challenge the certainty of one of us for unfalsiable claims without furnishing evidence.

https://www.transparency.org/en/cpi/2021

We had an entirely pointless debate about the credibility of Transparency International in relation to its ranking of UK corruption two years ago when it was already apparent that the Tory Government was corruptly wasting massive amounts of taxpayers money on buying PPE etc from their mates and funders at hugely inflated prices, and I'm sure it would be entirely pointless to re-open that debate.

Nevertheless I have say that I am astonished that you are still trotting out that tired old line even though Transparency International have now pretty much admitted themselves that they've been asleep at the wheel with respect to elements of institutional corruption within the UK in recent years.

In addition, so far as I'm aware they still specifically exclude various elements of corruption such as the City of London being the world leader in money laundering which doubtless helps them considerably to give the UK a much better rating than we actually deserve.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

We had an entirely pointless debate about the credibility of Transparency International in relation to its ranking of UK corruption two years ago when it was already apparent that the Tory Government was corruptly wasting massive amounts of taxpayers money on buying PPE etc from their mates and funders at hugely inflated prices, and I'm sure it would be entirely pointless to re-open that debate.

Nevertheless I have say that I am astonished that you are still trotting out that tired old line even though Transparency International have now pretty much admitted themselves that they've been asleep at the wheel with respect to elements of institutional corruption within the UK in recent years.

In addition, so far as I'm aware they still specifically exclude various elements of corruption such as the City of London being the world leader in money laundering which doubtless helps them considerably to give the UK a much better rating than we actually deserve.

Given that everybody agrees that quantifying corruption objectively is very difficult, I'm astonished that you're still more invested in arguing with me than simply agreeing with my original comment that Well b Back's comment that we're 'world leaders' regarding corruption is totally unsupportable.

But then it's clear you're far more about reinforcing your own prejudices and dismissing anything that challenges them than actual fact.

It's bad enough that you are happy to see pointless comments - by your own reckoning given what you say here - like Well b back's statement that we're 'world leaders' on corruption slide, but it's worse that you start frothing at the mouth that anyone dares point out that it's unsupportable and unreasonable nonsense.

But then you go further go beyond disputing the legitimacy of measures of respected bodies like Transparency International regarding corruption in favour of making up your own definitions to suit your own prejudices.

To summarise, it is simply unsupportable rubbish to assert with any hint of confidence that the UK is a 'world leader' in corruption in the face of widespread corruption globally that makes anything in the UK pale into insignificance. If you want to argue with that, then it's you indulging in a pointless debate, not me.

Edited December 7, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,325]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Given that everybody agrees that quantifying corruption objectively is very difficult, I'm astonished that you're still more invested in arguing with me than simply agreeing with my original comment that Well b Back's comment that we're 'world leaders' regarding corruption is totally unsupportable.

Because it was evident to everybody else that Well b back's words were not to be taken literally but were simple hyperbole making humorous reference to the Tory Party's overused and false claims to be "world beating" at everything they considered to be vote winning. Either you were incapable of seeing what was obvious, or you decided to misrepresent his post in order to start an argument. 

[Well b back 3,309]

On 06/12/2022 at 18:45, littleyellowbirdie said:

11th out of how many countries globally?

Excuse me: Well b back made a very strong and unsupported statement that is obviously untrue and I pointed out, where you chipped in challenging how 'I could be so certain'. I've explained how you can be far more certain that we're at the better end of things than the worse end of things globally, so maybe you can get your act together and find some evidence supporting Well b Back's view that we're towards the end of the worst in the world if you really want to double down on defending his incorrect statement.

Read the post t*** it was clearly tounge in cheek.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

28 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Read the post t*** it was clearly tounge in cheek.

There you go @Creative Midfielder, @Yellow fever: You've wasted my time and yours pursuing a pointless argument, by @Creative Midfielder's assessment, to defend a statement that the author admits wasn't even serious in the first place, although there was nothing in the text that indicated to me it was tongue in cheek; if there was, I wouldn't have bothered to contradict it.

Maybe add a wink or something... 🤪😉

Edited December 7, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Well b back 3,309]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There you go @Creative Midfielder, @Yellow fever: You've wasted my time and yours pursuing a pointless argument, by @Creative Midfielder's assessment, to defend a statement that the author admits wasn't even serious in the first place, although there was nothing in the text that indicated to me it was tongue in cheek; if there was, I wouldn't have bothered to contradict it.

Maybe add a wink or something... 🤪😉

Hang on it was serious, because our government are a fraudulent, lying, law breaking load of c****.  I guess you approve of their behaviour and bring your own kids up to do what they do.
They brag about being market leaders at lots of things, so as you have tried to shoot me down, then I would say best you aim your attention at this government, who as per my post market lead f*** all just pretend to.