Delia - Will you sell to a wealthy foreign buyer?

[PurpleCanary 5,635]

2 hours ago, chicken said:

There is another thing about the 6yr old quote (it's older than that isn't it, that would be 2016 but I thought it was more 2014?) that I feel people forget - context.

During the period after relegation to league one, an agency was employed to actively search for new investment. Contrary to many people's claims, this search didn't turn up empty handed. It just didn't manage to find many suitable candidates. The best candidate we certainly know about was Tony Fernandes. 

He was invited to several games, was seen at these games and it was no secret he was a guest of our joint majority shareholders.

I don't think it was that big a secret either, of how they wished to approach a take-over, which was slowly and calculated with any prospective owner first buying shares and coming onto the board. Learning about the club, the ins and the outs, the business strategy, get to know the area, the key principles for a club like ours and how it interacts with the local communities within Norfolk, the fan base including international fans etc. This certainly happened as he admitted.

The suggestion, and perhaps evidence, suggests that Fernandes wanted something much faster. The evidence was that he then bought QPR, having failed to buy West Ham, in 2011. He'd tried to buy West Ham before speaking to our club and bought QPR after. What he says now about his early seasons as the new owner of QPR is interesting.

Why do I think this is relevant and worth noting for context? Without question Delia and Michael love this club, the latter a lifelong fan. They have been a part of the club for 25+ years. They want to make sure that they don't just palm it off, and wanted to help Fernandes, or any new owner, to at least to get to know our history and the way we currently work. IMHO, it's also a good way to test the intent of any new owner. Would they be Glazers, or more respectful of the hard work gone in to making the club a good solid base to progress from.

If you had spent much money, time and effort into trying to do the best thing by everyone, you could perhaps understand that in one interview perhaps some frustration was expressed. No, not looking to sell now. Perhaps in the same way that folks will get stupid lowball offers and time wasters on houses, cars, etc they are trying to sell. It can grind you down.

 

Chicken, I think that overstates how serious that was. I don't believe that particular search for investors turned up Fernandes. Rather that he came along separately. My memory is that there was fan pressure on the club to arrange a meeting, because of his links to Lotus and because since his bid to buy West ham had failed he might fancy us.

As a result he was invited to - I think - only one game. Again from memory an evening fixture, but that may not be right. And afterwards there were warm but insubstantial words about synergies between two iconic Norfolk brands. I doubt there was anything like the detailed - albeit eventually fruitless - discussions the directors had with Cullum in the winter of 2007/08.

[chicken 2,710]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Chicken, I think that overstates how serious that was. I don't believe that particular search for investors turned up Fernandes. Rather that he came along separately. My memory is that there was fan pressure on the club to arrange a meeting, because of his links to Lotus and because since his bid to buy West ham had failed he might fancy us.

As a result he was invited to - I think - only one game. Again from memory an evening fixture, but that may not be right. And afterwards there were warm but insubstantial words about synergies between two iconic Norfolk brands. I doubt there was anything like the detailed - albeit eventually fruitless - discussions the directors had with Cullum in the winter of 2007/08.

Pretty sure the "discussions" with Cullum was one meeting because it was pretty clear what he was offering and it wasn't remotely tangible.

Just looking into it, and you're right, it looks like it was one game and may not have been a result of the search for investment. I'm fairly convinced it wasn't "fan pressure" that led to the club to arrange a meeting. There were plenty of links between Lotus and Norwich and it appears it was more that and his open statements in different interviews.

The bbc article.   

A Sky Sports reaction from McNally after the meeting with Fernandes.

Certainly as serious as Cullum in terms of where it could have gone. Cullum put a really strange offer on the table didn't he? In fact, wasn't it more or less fantastical? As in, he wanted controlling shares in return for investment of £20m in the playing squad. Which essentially would have meant shares were made worthless.  Not that you could think any shareholders being happy to surrender shares for nothing at any business, unless it is massively in debt and spiralling out of control. And we were not that.

Fernandes was actually invited to the club for talks, I believe they met Cullum outside of the club somewhere else, and once. It certainly looks like the dialogue was more open with Fernandes and that whilst it may have been more exploratory rather than a solid offer so to speak, it was more realistic.

Rather than rob another of their hard work, this thread is worth a look by a QPR fan too. Lots of quotes from articles that no longer seem to exist.

Suggests the dialogue was open for a fair amount of time as Fernandes was still open to investing in Norwich quite some time after. Whatever the reason, he went for QPR... and we know how that went. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by chicken

[PurpleCanary 5,635]

8 minutes ago, chicken said:

Pretty sure the "discussions" with Cullum was one meeting because it was pretty clear what he was offering and it wasn't remotely tangible.

Just looking into it, and you're right, it looks like it was one game and may not have been a result of the search for investment. I'm fairly convinced it wasn't "fan pressure" that led to the club to arrange a meeting. There were plenty of links between Lotus and Norwich and it appears it was more that and his open statements in different interviews.

The bbc article.   

A Sky Sports reaction from McNally after the meeting with Fernandes.

Certainly as serious as Cullum in terms of where it could have gone. Cullum put a really strange offer on the table didn't he? In fact, wasn't it more or less fantastical? As in, he wanted controlling shares in return for investment of £20m in the playing squad. Which essentially would have meant shares were made worthless.  Not that you could think any shareholders being happy to surrender shares for nothing at any business, unless it is massively in debt and spiralling out of control. And we were not that.

Fernandes was actually invited to the club for talks, I believe they met Cullum outside of the club somewhere else, and once. It certainly looks like the dialogue was more open with Fernandes and that whilst it may have been more exploratory rather than a solid offer so to speak, it was more realistic.

Rather than rob another of their hard work, this thread is worth a look by a QPR fan too. Lots of quotes from articles that no longer seem to exist.

Suggests the dialogue was open for a fair amount of time as Fernandes was still open to investing in Norwich quite some time after. Whatever the reason, he went for QPR... and we know how that went. 

Chicken, the secret talks Cullum had with the directors in the winter of 2007/08 were serious and detailed. It was the talks in the summer of 2008, after Cullum went public, that were indeed cursory, because  it was in effect the same offer the directors had looked at and rejected the winter before.

[chicken 2,710]

20 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Chicken, the secret talks Cullum had with the directors in the winter of 2007/08 were serious and detailed. It was the talks in the summer of 2008, after Cullum went public, that were indeed cursory, because  it was in effect the same offer the directors had looked at and rejected the winter before.

I don't think we'll agree here, but for all intents and purposes, Cullum may have thought his offer was serious, his intention may have been serious. But in reality, it was woeful and a joke. Like I say, point at shareholders willing to take nothing for their investment to let someone else have the club for spending £20m on the squad. As serious offers go, that's pretty shocking, even for a freshly relegated team in League One.

Fernandes was also serious about being interested, that he didn't put an offer in but was in talks with the club - sure, one game attended, but it is clear there was more than that, and not just a cave in to fan pressure either. He was still mulling it over several months later.

Realistically which would we prefer? Someone to make a ridiculous offer and not have at least done a bit of research first, or someone coming in and finding out more about the business side of the club so they can make an informed decision before bidding?

He'll probably never admit it, but I do wonder if Fernandes would have been better off here than with QPR. Though what is worth noting is that being worth £180m is still rather small fry in the world of premier league football. Though he has supposedly written off a lot of debt owed to him by QPR.

[PurpleCanary 5,635]

1 minute ago, chicken said:

I don't think we'll agree here, but for all intents and purposes, Cullum may have thought his offer was serious, his intention may have been serious. But in reality, it was woeful and a joke. Like I say, point at shareholders willing to take nothing for their investment to let someone else have the club for spending £20m on the squad. As serious offers go, that's pretty shocking, even for a freshly relegated team in League One.

Fernandes was also serious about being interested, that he didn't put an offer in but was in talks with the club - sure, one game attended, but it is clear there was more than that, and not just a cave in to fan pressure either. He was still mulling it over several months later.

Realistically which would we prefer? Someone to make a ridiculous offer and not have at least done a bit of research first, or someone coming in and finding out more about the business side of the club so they can make an informed decision before bidding?

He'll probably never admit it, but I do wonder if Fernandes would have been better off here than with QPR. Though what is worth noting is that being worth £180m is still rather small fry in the world of premier league football. Though he has supposedly written off a lot of debt owed to him by QPR.

Chicken, I agree entirely Cullum’s offer was a lousy one. My only point was that despite that it was gone through in detail with the directors at some length, during which process it became obvious just how lousy it was. It was only in the summer, when Cullum resurrected the offer by going public, that the directors didn’t see any point in talking to Cullum again, and so the one meeting that they ended up having was cursory.

[chicken 2,710]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

Chicken, I agree entirely Cullum’s offer was a lousy one. My only point was that despite that it was gone through in detail with the directors at some length, during which process it became obvious just how lousy it was. It was only in the summer, when Cullum resurrected the offer by going public, that the directors didn’t see any point in talking to Cullum again, and so the one meeting that they ended up having was cursory.

IMHO, almost certainly because of him going public and therefore due to public pressure. With the previous meeting/discussions not widely known about at that point.

I remember the pressure built via the press.

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

On 12/04/2022 at 16:10, PurpleCanary said:

She said in a previous recent interview that  selling up was not ruled out and that the supporters would have to approve any sale but curiously this up to date statement gets omitted by some posters in favour of a six-year-old quote...

Serious question... do you think any seriously wealthy person is going to be willing to put themselves up for a public election against Delia Smith? That is effectively what "approving" would entail, customers choosing between Delia or the prospective new owner. Is there any precedent at all for anything similar happening, ever? 

Would there be hustings events at St Andrews Hall?

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by TeemuVanBasten

[Jim Smith 2,371]

They do not want to sell and they actively deter interested parties by making that very clear. They are only interested in keeping hold of their train set regardless of what is in the best interests of the club, 

[PurpleCanary 5,635]

7 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Serious question... do you think any seriously wealthy person is going to be willing to put themselves up for a public election against Delia Smith? That is effectively what "approving" would entail, customers choosing between Delia or the prospective new owner. Is there any precedent at all for anything similar happening, ever? 

Would there be hustings events at St Andrews Hall?

 

I am guessing but I suspect what she means is that if there was an offer they liked they would then ask the fans if they approved it, rather than pitting the status quo against an offer they opposed.

Edited April 14, 2022 by PurpleCanary

[chicken 2,710]

52 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I am guessing but I suspect what she means is that if there was an offer they liked they would then ask the fans if they approved it, rather than pitting the status quo against an offer they opposed.

This. And not only that, if it gets to that point I suspect there would only be one outcome as it'd have their stamp of approval.

What intrigues me about this though, is it sends a clear message to potential buyers that they will have to engage with the fans from the off.

[BigFish 2,001]

6 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

They do not want to sell and they actively deter interested parties by making that very clear. They are only interested in keeping hold of their train set regardless of what is in the best interests of the club, 

This is only opinion, there is no evidence to support it whatsoever. No "interested party" has emerged, and so no one has been detered. This is the magical thinking of a small subsection of the support who dey the idea that maybe the current regime is the best a mid-sized provincial football club could expect.

[hogesar 9,878]

6 minutes ago, BigFish said:

This is only opinion, there is no evidence to support it whatsoever. No "interested party" has emerged, and so no one has been detered. This is the magical thinking of a small subsection of the support who dey the idea that maybe the current regime is the best a mid-sized provincial football club could expect.

It's the "train set" rubbish that gets me every time. It's so cringeworthy and desperate. 😂

[hogesar 9,878]

13 hours ago, Badger said:

Perhaps they guessed what a disappointing owner he would be?

Next year will be their 7th consecutive season in the Championship. he did get them up one year but they went straight back down again!

So there they sit, mid table with debt of over £50 million. Some on here would be trying to organise a banner proclaiming "Tony Out" with a record like that - especially as he has remodelled the club on the basis of "financial sustainability." 

 

12 hours ago, Mello Yello said:

Perhaps? Maybe? Who Knows?.....The Majority Shareholding Duo probably do.....We'll never know.....eh?.....

Well, evidence suggests with both Cullum and Fernandez that our owners were pretty good judge of characters....

[BigFish 2,001]

7 minutes ago, hogesar said:

It's the "train set" rubbish that gets me every time. It's so cringeworthy and desperate. 😂

There is certainly a particularly chippy group that in the the absence of fact resort to personal abuse of Smith & Jones and their motives, often of a mysogynstic nature.

[......and Smith must score. 1,379]

8 hours ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Serious question... do you think any seriously wealthy person is going to be willing to put themselves up for a public election against Delia Smith? That is effectively what "approving" would entail, customers choosing between Delia or the prospective new owner. Is there any precedent at all for anything similar happening, ever? 

Would there be hustings events at St Andrews Hall?

 

Hi TVB………..been on the naughty step this past month ? 😀

[ged in the onion bag 878]

6 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

They do not want to sell and they actively deter interested parties by making that very clear. They are only interested in keeping hold of their train set regardless of what is in the best interests of the club, 

And as it’s is in their ownership, they can please themselves just like you can if someone was after something you own!    If it was my asset and I got pleasure from it, then I’d keep it as long as I like!    But I’d make sure it was in the best interests of the club.   The fact the club is debt free and run well suggests their ownership is in the best interests of the club.    
 

What you and certain others seem to be getting hung up on is the difference between ‘your’ best interests and ‘the clubs’ best interests!    Would be so impressed if you could provide evidence and arguments that the club is not well run and who and how another owner would ‘definitely’ be better for the club.    Just look around the professional football scene in England, it’s full of poorly run, debt ridden clubs, struggling to keep afloat let alone have an improvement plan!

Get a grip! 

[TeemuVanBasten 3,327]

44 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

Hi TVB………..been on the naughty step this past month ? 😀

Yes, I was sin binned. I'll take it on the chin. did miss the place a little. My ban coincided with us getting 4 points on the board, perhaps I should go away until mid-May,  see if I can induce a miracle. 

[Badger 2,421]

39 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

Would be so impressed if you could provide evidence and arguments that the club is not well run and who and how another owner would ‘definitely’ be better for the club.  

I think that you should be prepared for a long silence...😉

[shefcanary 2,531]

15 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

Shef, I make the combined Foulger and Jimmy Jones holdings to be 120,000, and just under 20 per cent of the total. But shy of the 30 per per cent at which an offer has to be made for all shares.

My 7% was just the "Jones" shares, but yes, add in Foulger family shares and that begins to be a sizeable stake.  I'm still not convinced either would sell and upset the apple cart - whisper it quietly but that would be akin to a putsch against Putin!

[ged in the onion bag 878]

37 minutes ago, Badger said:

I think that you should be prepared for a long silence...😉

I’m not expecting any credible response!  🤔

[BigFish 2,001]

5 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

My 7% was just the "Jones" shares, but yes, add in Foulger family shares and that begins to be a sizeable stake.  I'm still not convinced either would sell and upset the apple cart - whisper it quietly but that would be akin to a putsch against Putin!

This made me think of Sam Kroenke at Arsenal. Not least because there is refutation of the "no one will bid unless Delia puts up a for sale sign" brigade. Arsenal are not for sale, but that didn't stop Daniel Ek making a credible bid including fan ownership and a golden share. It was rejected, but the point is that it was known, public and actually happened. Kroenke also froze out Usimov until the later agreed to sell up his 30%. Kroenke's interest in Arsenal wasn't originally welcomed by the Arsenal board but he moved from a technical association, through a small share holding, to a place on the board, built trust, before finally gaining majority control with the purchase of long standing share holdings. The point here is that it is doable with time and determination. But it took Kroenke four years to gain majority control and eleven to complete the entirety of the purchase. There is no evidence that anyone with these attributes is available for City. And the Irony is Arsenal are a self-funding club in anycase.

[shefcanary 2,531]

@BigFish Yes, it can be done, but trust as you say has to be built, and that in effect is where the nod would come from Smith & Jones.  So, looking at some change by 2028 then?

[Badger 2,421]

14 minutes ago, BigFish said:

This made me think of Sam Kroenke at Arsenal. Not least because there is refutation of the "no one will bid unless Delia puts up a for sale sign" brigade. Arsenal are not for sale, but that didn't stop Daniel Ek making a credible bid including fan ownership and a golden share. It was rejected, but the point is that it was known, public and actually happened. Kroenke also froze out Usimov until the later agreed to sell up his 30%. Kroenke's interest in Arsenal wasn't originally welcomed by the Arsenal board but he moved from a technical association, through a small share holding, to a place on the board, built trust, before finally gaining majority control with the purchase of long standing share holdings. The point here is that it is doable with time and determination. But it took Kroenke four years to gain majority control and eleven to complete the entirety of the purchase. There is no evidence that anyone with these attributes is available for City. And the Irony is Arsenal are a self-funding club in anycase.

Don't go confusing the argument with facts! 😉

[PurpleCanary 5,635]

16 hours ago, Badger said:

Perhaps they guessed what a disappointing owner he would be?

Next year will be their 7th consecutive season in the Championship. he did get them up one year but they went straight back down again!

So there they sit, mid table with debt of over £50 million. Some on here would be trying to organise a banner proclaiming "Tony Out" with a record like that - especially as he has remodelled the club on the basis of "financial sustainability." 

But only by cheating and eventually getting what I think is a record fine of £42m and a transfer ban...🤓

And as it happens QPR's previous promotion to the Premier League, just before Fernandes took over, was achieved with a third-party owned player but they got away with a fine rather the points penalty they deserved.

And if the blatant breach of rules had been discovered the season before they would by rights then have been fighting to get out of League One rather than winning the Championship.

[Badger 2,421]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

But only by cheating and eventually getting what I think is a record fine of £42m and a transfer ban...🤓

And as it happens QPR's previous promotion to the Premier League, just before Fernandes took over, was achieved with a third-party owned player but they got away with a fine rather the points penalty they deserved.

And if the blatant breach of rules had been discovered the season before they would by rights then have been fighting to get out of League One rather than winning the Championship.

If only we had the QPR owners...😪

[Badger 2,421]

14 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

They do not want to sell and they actively deter interested parties by making that very clear. They are only interested in keeping hold of their train set regardless of what is in the best interests of the club, 

He was interested in buying City but was put off by Delia's hard-line stance!

"I had wanted to buy English Soccer, Norwich City but I was afraid of their owner, Delia Smith - too tough for me!"

 

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/elon-musk-launches-hostile-takeover-of-twitter-20220414-p5admv.html

[Jim Smith 2,371]

11 hours ago, BigFish said:

This is only opinion, there is no evidence to support it whatsoever. No "interested party" has emerged, and so no one has been detered. This is the magical thinking of a small subsection of the support who dey the idea that maybe the current regime is the best a mid-sized provincial football club could expect.

That is not correct. It is not only opinion. 

[chicken 2,710]

2 hours ago, Jim Smith said:

That is not correct. It is not only opinion. 

It is... unless you have unequivecal evidence... which you don't. 

So it is opinion. And generally a poor one.

Why would someone spend a lot of money on an agency to look for investment, for some considerable time, if they weren't serious? Why would they announce that to the world if they weren't serious about it? Almost inviting people to show their interest.

No. What you have is a conspiracy theory with next to no evidence to back it up.

[Jim Smith 2,371]

9 minutes ago, chicken said:

It is... unless you have unequivecal evidence... which you don't. 

So it is opinion. And generally a poor one.

Why would someone spend a lot of money on an agency to look for investment, for some considerable time, if they weren't serious? Why would they announce that to the world if they weren't serious about it? Almost inviting people to show their interest.

No. What you have is a conspiracy theory with next to no evidence to back it up.

You have no idea what evidence or knowledge I have. 

[PurpleCanary 5,635]

5 hours ago, Badger said:

He was interested in buying City but was put off by Delia's hard-line stance!

"I had wanted to buy English Soccer, Norwich City but I was afraid of their owner, Delia Smith - too tough for me!"

 

https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/elon-musk-launches-hostile-takeover-of-twitter-20220414-p5admv.html

Badger, I’m confused. If thisTwitter company didn’t put big “We are for sale” adverts in all the major newspapers worldwide how was this Musk chappie able to launch a takeover bid?🤩