When will the UK rejoin the EU?

[Lee Marshall 4]

Hopefully sometime soon.

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

1 hour ago, Lee Marshall said:

Hopefully sometime soon.

Amen to that, although in practice several things have to happen before it becomes a realistic prospect.

First is obviously the removal of specifically Johnson as PM and more generally the Tory government. Hopefully they will risk an election in 2023 rather than holding out for as long as possible.

In 2024 the NI Protocol will be reviewed and NI will get to vote on it - this is likely to be the first real opportunity to try and fix some of the worst aspects of Johnson's stonkingly bad deal (and perhaps improve relations with the EU in the process).

Hopefully by then the economy will be re-established as one of the dominant issues in UK General elections and given the damage that Brexit has caused and will be causing to the economy then common sense will start to re-assert itself on most voters (total Brexitty idiots excepted but there won't be enough of them left by then).

Edited December 8, 2021 by Creative Midfielder

[Lee Marshall 4]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Amen to that, although in practice several things have to happen before it becomes a realistic prospect.

First is obviously the removal of specically Johnson as PM and more generally the Tory government. Hopefully they will risk an election in 2023 rather than holding out for as long as possible.

In 2024 the NI Protocol will be reviewed and NI will get to vote on it - this is likely to be the first real opportunity to try and fix some of the worst aspects of Johnson's stonkingly bad deal (and perhaps improve relations with the EU in the process).

Hopefully by then the economy will be re-established as one of the dominant issues in UK General elections and given the damage that Brexit has caused and will be causing to the economy then common sense will start to re-assert itself on most voters (total Brexitty idiots excepted but there won't be enough of them left by then).

Good post! I agree with this completely.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

8 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Amen to that, although in practice several things have to happen before it becomes a realistic prospect.

First is obviously the removal of specifically Johnson as PM and more generally the Tory government. Hopefully they will risk an election in 2023 rather than holding out for as long as possible.

In 2024 the NI Protocol will be reviewed and NI will get to vote on it - this is likely to be the first real opportunity to try and fix some of the worst aspects of Johnson's stonkingly bad deal (and perhaps improve relations with the EU in the process).

Hopefully by then the economy will be re-established as one of the dominant issues in UK General elections and given the damage that Brexit has caused and will be causing to the economy then common sense will start to re-assert itself on most voters (total Brexitty idiots excepted but there won't be enough of them left by then).

Why do you think they might go for an early election? 

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

15 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Why do you think they might go for an early election? 

I'm not at all sure that they will - Tory MPs generally would like to hang on as long as possible I would have thought.

But there was quite a lot of speculation a little while ago (late summer perhaps?) suggesting that No 10 thought that they might have a better chance of winning in 2023 than in 2024 - not entirely sure why but I suspect the thinking was that the pandemic would be well behind us and there might be a slightly better feelgood factor then, whereas as waiting until 2024 is going to make it much clearer how much Brexit is still damaging the economy and how painful paying for the huge cost of the pandemic is turning out to be. Like all Tory governments they want to go into an election having just cut taxes rather than having been increasing them for the last three years, although I think their chances of achieving that this time around are somewhere between minimal and zero.

But having said all that, much has changed recently so I doubt that anyone has any idea when the next election will be or who will be the Tory and Labour party leaders at the time.

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

4 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'm not at all sure that they will - Tory MPs generally would like to hang on as long as possible I would have thought.

But there was quite a lot of speculation a little while ago (late summer perhaps?) suggesting that No 10 thought that they might have a better chance of winning in 2023 than in 2024 - not entirely sure why but I suspect the thinking was that the pandemic would be well behind us and there might be a slightly better feelgood factor then, whereas as waiting until 2024 is going to make it much clearer how much Brexit is still damaging the economy and how painful paying for the huge cost of the pandemic is turning out to be. Like all Tory governments they want to go into an election having just cut taxes rather than having been increasing them for the last three years, although I think their chances of achieving that this time around are somewhere between minimal and zero.

But having said all that, much has changed recently so I doubt that anyone has any idea when the next election will be or who will be the Tory and Labour party leaders at the time.

I don't bet on politics (or anything) but I think what in the trade is regarded as a 'value' bet would be a double on Starmer being the Labour leader and Johnson not being the Tory leader.

With Johnson it is tempting to think the latest scandal will be the proverbial last straw, but there is certainly one more straw that could be revealed between now and the next election.🤩

Edited December 9, 2021 by PurpleCanary

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

Since the issue of the re-joining the EU, or significant elements of it (SM / CU) is becoming a more frequent/regular discussion, even slightly surprisingly getting mentioned by a handful of Tory MPs, and that we now have a Rejoin Party it seemed like an appropriate time to give this thread a bump.

Of course step 1 (required before any real progress can be made), and yet to be achieved, remains getting rid of Johnson as PM but this week has raised the distinct possibility that this will also be achieved within a matter of a few weeks/months rather than having to wait until the 2024 GE for the pleasure.

[canarydan23 4,060]

It would be hilarious if all Brexit achieved was a 10 year from the EU followed by rejoining with the Euro enforced upon us. Those that were left still dodging their coffins would probably be making a voluntary jump into them.

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

16 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

It would be hilarious if all Brexit achieved was a 10 year from the EU followed by rejoining with the Euro enforced upon us. Those that were left still dodging their coffins would probably be making a voluntary jump into them.

Yes - it may well be like the 'Commonwealth' of Cromwell. Turned sour very quickly. Ten Years - I said that over a year ago and still looks good timing if not sooner. Maybe not the whole EU but SM certainly.

Quite analogous I think - lifted from wiki

In retrospect, the period of republican rule for England was a failure in the short term. During the 11-year period, no stable government was established to rule the English state for longer than a few months at a time. Several administrative structures were tried, and several Parliaments called and seated, but little in the way of meaningful, lasting legislation was passed. The only force keeping it together was the personality of Oliver Cromwell, who exerted control through the military by way of the "Grandees", being the Major-Generals and other senior military leaders of the New Model Army. Not only did Cromwell's regime crumble into near anarchy upon his death and the brief administration of his son, but the monarchy he overthrew was restored in 1660, and its first act was officially to erase all traces of any constitutional reforms of the Republican period. Still, the memory of the Parliamentarian cause, dubbed the Good Old Cause by the soldiers of the New Model Army, lingered on. It would carry through English politics and eventually result in a constitutional monarchy.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

Hezza on it again.

Always a good read.

Even the Murdoch press is now waking up to the truth: Brexit was an act of self-harm

Michael Heseltine

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/10/rupert-murdoch-press-brexit-eu

[sonyc 5,541]

4 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Since the issue of the re-joining the EU, or significant elements of it (SM / CU) is becoming a more frequent/regular discussion, even slightly surprisingly getting mentioned by a handful of Tory MPs, and that we now have a Rejoin Party it seemed like an appropriate time to give this thread a bump.

Of course step 1 (required before any real progress can be made), and yet to be achieved, remains getting rid of Johnson as PM but this week has raised the distinct possibility that this will also be achieved within a matter of a few weeks/months rather than having to wait until the 2024 GE for the pleasure.

My belief is that these serious Brexit problems and the desire to remain in the single market will play right into the SNP's hand should they manage to get another Indyrep vote next year. 

I wish Labour would start to support something more definite about getting closer to the EU rather than the generalised 'nothingness' or a feeling of a kind of non-commitment - certainly that's my take (for fear of a backlash  I assume or alienating parts of its red wall vote...the toxicity of the subject is no doubt the underlying worry).

But I believe there could be the beginning of some proper debate that might gain traction. The left of centre needs to get it's act together generally. Johnson won't be changing that's for sure. 

I know we've debated this before CM but I believe Scotland would vote for independence if they can get to a vote. There is so little trust in Scotland of Westminster. (I remain hopeful that my 11% ancestry might get me in😅 in the future). 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

Just in long term strategic terms for the UK, the EU is a big club of net consumers engaging in a protectionist project while having little to offer the rest of the world in resources; the most important resources for us come from Africa and Asia where we have strong legacy cultural relationships with many countries that we have been unable to exploit as members of the EU due to lack of interest from the EU. It's of note that pretty much all of the EU's major trade initiatives with Commonwealth nations started after the 2016 referendum, which underlines how marginalised we were politically as members considering the share of the EU economy we represented. 

The UK was forced into massive concessions by France in order to join the EU. On the other hand, the biggest concession we've had to make in joining CPTPP is on livestock imports in a world where we're all supposed to be cutting our meat consumption anyway. As such, it seems daft to pine after a declining club that kept us out for ages in a resource poor part of the world while joining a club that's welcoming us with open arms representing many growing markets and with ambition to expand. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

13 hours ago, sonyc said:

My belief is that these serious Brexit problems and the desire to remain in the single market will play right into the SNP's hand should they manage to get another Indyrep vote next year. 

I wish Labour would start to support something more definite about getting closer to the EU rather than the generalised 'nothingness' or a feeling of a kind of non-commitment - certainly that's my take (for fear of a backlash  I assume or alienating parts of its red wall vote...the toxicity of the subject is no doubt the underlying worry).

But I believe there could be the beginning of some proper debate that might gain traction. The left of centre needs to get it's act together generally. Johnson won't be changing that's for sure. 

I know we've debated this before CM but I believe Scotland would vote for independence if they can get to a vote. There is so little trust in Scotland of Westminster. (I remain hopeful that my 11% ancestry might get me in😅 in the future). 

If it happens, just make sure you have a Scottish address before the breakup and you'll be a Scottish national after the breakup, given that any distinction based on ancestry or past location will be inherently racist. It could well be that Scotland will suddenly find itself flooded with English immigrants, which would be a humorous twist. 

[Herman 9,819]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Just in long term strategic terms for the UK, the EU is a big club of net consumers engaging in a protectionist project while having little to offer the rest of the world in resources; the most important resources for us come from Africa and Asia where we have strong legacy cultural relationships with many countries that we have been unable to exploit as members of the EU due to lack of interest from the EU. It's of note that pretty much all of the EU's major trade initiatives with Commonwealth nations started after the 2016 referendum, which underlines how marginalised we were politically as members considering the share of the EU economy we represented. 

The UK was forced into massive concessions by France in order to join the EU. On the other hand, the biggest concession we've had to make in joining CPTPP is on livestock imports in a world where we're all supposed to be cutting our meat consumption anyway. As such, it seems daft to pine after a declining club that kept us out for ages in a resource poor part of the world while joining a club that's welcoming us with open arms representing many growing markets and with ambition to expand. 

Thank you Mr Rees-Mogg for that.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

4 minutes ago, Herman said:

Thank you Mr Rees-Mogg for that.

Not a fan of Rees-Mogg in many respects, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 

[Herman 9,819]

The trouble with people like you and him is that you still tend to blame the EU for forcing us to do things, rather than us being a willing partner that was equally involved in decisions. You still have the mentality that we were a captured, colonial asset. Now your great plan is to join another trade bloc, on the other side of the world, with the British public having no say in it.

[Creative Midfielder 2,002]

33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If it happens, just make sure you have a Scottish address before the breakup and you'll be a Scottish national after the breakup, given that any distinction based on ancestry or past location will be inherently racist. It could well be that Scotland will suddenly find itself flooded with English immigrants, which would be a humorous twist. 

Not sure it would be particularly humorous - there would certainly be movement, probably in both directions, but with Scotland certain to increase its population at the expense of the remainder of the UK. Especially for those of us in the north of England moving a few miles further north would be no big deal relative to the double prize of regaining EU citizenship and escaping the trainwreck of the failing UK state.

I suspect you are wrong also on the need to make the move before the breakup, though obviously that will become clear after the independence decision but well before the actually break up happens, so shouldn't be much of a practical problem and in any cae, inherently racist or not, many countries do have entry rules which make some allowance for ancestry. So see no reason at all why Scotland would avoid it - think they would be very happy to see people from all over the UK move north as indeed they are already far more welcoming of immigrants generally than England.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Creative Midfielder

[horsefly 4,310]

33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Just in long term strategic terms for the UK, the EU is a big club of net consumers engaging in a protectionist project while having little to offer the rest of the world in resources; the most important resources for us come from Africa and Asia where we have strong legacy cultural relationships with many countries that we have been unable to exploit as members of the EU due to lack of interest from the EU. It's of note that pretty much all of the EU's major trade initiatives with Commonwealth nations started after the 2016 referendum, which underlines how marginalised we were politically as members considering the share of the EU economy we represented. 

The UK was forced into massive concessions by France in order to join the EU. On the other hand, the biggest concession we've had to make in joining CPTPP is on livestock imports in a world where we're all supposed to be cutting our meat consumption anyway. As such, it seems daft to pine after a declining club that kept us out for ages in a resource poor part of the world while joining a club that's welcoming us with open arms representing many growing markets and with ambition to expand. 

Have we actually joined the CPTPP? I thought that still only remained an aspiration. Also it is pure fantasy to think that markets thousands of miles away are going to replace the loss of UK export trade to the EU. Do you really believe that Mexico et al will be importing massive quantities of UK fish and cheese etc? There's a reason why many of those SMEs still in business have moved to or opened up operations on mainland Europe, because they know that's where their trade is. Other SMEs have just stopped exporting altogether, because it is no longer economically viable.

As for the CPTPP; I thought the key idea of Brexit was to free ourselves from the bureaucratic rules and controls of such multi-national organisations. It would seem somewhat bizarre to celebrate our liberation from one such organisation by joining an infinitely inferior version of the same.  Certainly old Nige thinks joining the CPTPP would be a disastrous sell out of the Brexit ideal.

. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

10 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Not sure it would be particularly humorous - there would certainly be movement, probably in both directions, but with Scotland certain to increase its population at the expense of the remainder of the UK. Especially for those of us in the north of England moving a few miles further north would be no big deal relative to the double prize of regaining EU citizenship and escaping the trainwreck of the failing UK state.

I suspect you are wrong also on the need to make the move before the breakup, though obviously that will become clear after the independence decision but well before the actually break up happens, so shouldn't be much of a practical problem and in any cae, inherently racist or not, many countries do have entry rules which make some allowance for ancestry. So see no reason at all why Scotland would avoid it - think they would be very happy to see people from all over the UK move north as indeed they are already far more welcoming of immigrants generally than England.

It's not an entry rule from a starting point where Scots, Welsh, English, and Northern Irish all have the same nationality in international legal terms. There are only two ways of dealing with nationality of British citizens after separation: 

   -Location of residence within the UK at the time of Scotland's withdrawal

-Choice of individual citizens to opt for British or Scottish nationality. 

There's no other way to handle it. 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

13 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Have we actually joined the CPTPP? I thought that still only remained an aspiration. Also it is pure fantasy to think that markets thousands of miles away are going to replace the loss of UK export trade to the EU. Do you really believe that Mexico et al will be importing massive quantities of UK fish and cheese etc? There's a reason why many of those SMEs still in business have moved to or opened up operations on mainland Europe, because they know that's where their trade is. Other SMEs have just stopped exporting altogether, because it is no longer economically viable.

As for the CPTPP; I thought the key idea of Brexit was to free ourselves from the bureaucratic rules and controls of such multi-national organisations. It would seem somewhat bizarre to celebrate our liberation from one such organisation by joining an infinitely inferior version of the same.  Certainly old Nige thinks joining the CPTPP would be a disastrous sell out of the Brexit ideal.

. 

https://www.ft.com/content/e667e5cf-cea7-4a1a-a4b1-f009a93190f9

We're set to be full members by the end of 2022/start of 2023. It seems to me that both the UK side and the CPTPP side are fully committed to this being a fait accompli by the time there's another election in the UK. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,310]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

https://www.ft.com/content/e667e5cf-cea7-4a1a-a4b1-f009a93190f9

We're set to be full members by the end of 2022/start of 2023. It seems to me that both the UK side and the CPTPP side are fully committed to this being a fait accompli by the time there's another election in the UK. 

Nige must be fuming. I wonder how China's application to join the CPTPP is going?

Edited June 11, 2022 by horsefly

[Herman 9,819]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

https://www.ft.com/content/e667e5cf-cea7-4a1a-a4b1-f009a93190f9

We're set to be full members by the end of 2022/start of 2023. It seems to me that both the UK side and the CPTPP side are fully committed to this being a fait accompli by the time there's another election in the UK. 

So basically we are literally being forced into this with zero say in the matter? Take back control my rrs.

[sonyc 5,541]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If it happens, just make sure you have a Scottish address before the breakup and you'll be a Scottish national after the breakup, given that any distinction based on ancestry or past location will be inherently racist. It could well be that Scotland will suddenly find itself flooded with English immigrants, which would be a humorous twist. 

You've lifted my spirits with the idea of being able to be a Scottish citizen because of residence -  It could be an attractive one whether by way of residence or choice (or ancestry for that matter)! Who knows. It deserves a lot of reflection.

I was born in Norwich and have lots of Norfolk/north Suffolk ancestry and my allegiance to our team is a given, 100% lifelong. Yet I'm finding out (as data sets get better and my own genealogical research improves) I'm only just marginally English. I have a solid Welsh and more minor Scottish and Irish ancestry. Actually, I suspect a significant percentage of people have very mixed ancestry.

.....And I feel less and less 'English' in some respects. Not that there are not lots of very good characteristics in our national identity (or culture) but these last few years have made me question where I 'belong'.  It is a very complex subject!

Some elements of our culture (to me) seem to be influenced by the US these last decades. And you read about private healthcare and the current Tory aim - to privatise. It's been happening by stealth.

The best aspects of our national system from a social / health / welfare perspective for me is the safety net provided by the welfare state and the NHS. It's not perfect I realise. But Bevan's vision and  Beveridge's 'five giants' report that became the social programme for the post WW2 period (and decades after) still remains the most progressive policy (for me) we've ever had. Thatherites might disagree of course. They see the death of unionism as a massive success (I don't).

The report paved the way not only the practical steps for establishing national renewal after the ravages of war, but it also facilitated a culture, one of respect, care for each other. 

Maybe I've just got rose tinted glasses for the past?

It's incredible that in hundreds of years of government only 30 of them have been with a left / centre left administration. And the NHS and welfare system were implemented by that original Atlee government with supportive policies by those that followed. This is now being trashed. It is sad.

Brexit for me was also an example of people not voting for the UK or what was best for it. It was actually (ironically) unpatriotic. It was a national harm. It was evidence of a sharper move to the right. A lack of understanding that the UK has to play it's part in a different world. A world well away from its former empire. A world of cooperation, negotiation, collaboration. But, importantly, being a part of that world. NOT p*ssing off our nearest neighbours - France, Ireland, Scotland etc. That's where we are isn't it? 

It's part an emotional reaction to our current government but I cannot see us becoming more liberal any time soon. Leaving Europe was a big move away from that.

As a result (and it's not just me) there is a revolt against the values that a "little England" represents. This thread and others attests to feelings.

It is affirming to think one has a choice. Do you fight it or just move away? It's such a structural problem. I see it as I've lived up north well over 40 years. It's not a lie that there is a north / south divide. It will take trillions of pounds and a national political strategy to solve it. That just won't happen. Ever.

My career (40 years) was about trying to make a difference. I know I did on an individual level but as a career aiming to try and influence change for good on the ground, in the community yes, but city wide, I failed. Like we all did. (Do watch Bradford On Duty BBC2 at the moment. It shows you what decent people have to face in trying to manage the fall out of shocking health inequality).

Anyway as ever, you can find many examples of great acts of kindness on your own street, the volunteerism, the altruism (which we all do). Seeing things locally and in front of you means you can act. But through a national lens, as I've intimated, I'm probably more dispirited now than ever. What is the future for England?  What is the plan? The strategy? 

At least Scotland appears to have a sense of itself and they've been debating what independence might mean for years. No such debate here about saving the union. No debate on what we want with our relationship with our neighbours. Little attempt at a recognition of Wales' offer. Their post Brexit dividend is a shambles. Northern Ireland? Haha. 

A very complex and interesting subject. I've said before it needs a change in the electoral system, one that facilitates consensus and not one that is by nature very short termist, one that naturally leads to an uneducated and infantilised electorate. We need a new Beveridge to emerge too. Otherwise we will fracture.

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by sonyc

[horsefly 4,310]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Not a fan of Rees-Mogg in many respects, but even a stopped clock is right twice a day. 

Alas! Mogg's clock hasn't stopped. It's just one century behind everybody else's.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

You've lifted my spirits with the idea of being able to be a Scottish citizen because of residence -  It could be an attractive one whether by way of residence or choice (or ancestry for that matter)! Who knows. It deserves a lot of reflection.

I was born in Norwich and have lots of Norfolk/north Suffolk ancestry and my allegiance to our team is a given, 100% lifelong. Yet I'm finding out (as data sets get better and my own genealogical research improves) I'm only just marginally English. I have a solid Welsh and more minor Scottish and Irish ancestry. Actually, I suspect a significant percentage of people have very mixed ancestry.

.....And I feel less and less 'English' in some respects. Not that there are not lots of very good characteristics in our national identity (or culture) but these last few years have made me question where I 'belong'.  It is a very complex subject!

Some elements of our culture (to me) seem to be influenced by the US these last decades. And you read about private healthcare and the current Tory aim - to privatise. It's been happening by stealth.

The best aspects of our national system from a social / health / welfare perspective for me is the safety net provided by the welfare state and the NHS. It's not perfect I realise. But Bevan's vision and  Beveridge's 'five giants' report that became the social programme for the post WW2 period (and decades after) still remains the most progressive policy (for me) we've ever had. Thatherites might disagree of course. They see the death of unionism as a massive success (I don't).

The report paved the way not only the practical steps for establishing national renewal after the ravages of war, but it also facilitated a culture, one of respect, care for each other. 

Maybe I've just got rose tinted glasses for the past?

It's incredible that in hundreds of years of government only 30 of them have been with a left / centre left administration. And the NHS and welfare system were implemented by that original Atlee government with supportive policies by those that followed. This is now being trashed. It is sad.

Brexit for me was also an example of people not voting for the UK or what was best for it. It was actually (ironically) unpatriotic. It was a national harm. It was evidence of a sharper move to the right. A lack of understanding that the UK has to play it's part in a different world. A world well away from its former empire. A world of cooperation, negotiation, collaboration. But, importantly, being a part of that world. NOT p*ssing off our nearest neighbours - France, Ireland, Scotland etc. That's where we are isn't it? 

It's part an emotional reaction to our current government but I cannot see us becoming more liberal any time soon. Leaving Europe was a big move away from that.

As a result (and it's not just me) there is a revolt against the values that a "little England" represents. This thread and others attests to feelings.

It is affirming to think one has a choice. Do you fight it or just move away? It's such a structural problem. I see it as I've lived up north well over 40 years. It's not a lie that there is a north / south divide. It will take trillions of pounds and a national political strategy to solve it. That just won't happen. Ever.

My career (40 years) was about trying to make a difference. I know I did on an individual level but as a career aiming to try and influence change for good on the ground, in the community yes, but city wide, I failed. Like we all did. (Do watch Bradford On Duty BBC2 at the moment. It shows you what decent people have to face in trying to manage the fall out of shocking health inequality).

Anyway as ever, you can find many examples of great acts of kindness on your own street, the volunteerism, the altruism (which we all do). Seeing things locally and in front of you means you can act. But through a national lens, as I've intimated, I'm probably more dispirited now than ever. What is the future for England?  What is the plan? The strategy? 

At least Scotland appears to have a sense of itself and they've been debating what independence might mean for years. No such debate here about saving the union. No debate on what we want with our relationship with our neighbours. Little attempt at a recognition of Wales' offer. Their post Brexit dividend is a shambles. Northern Ireland? Haha. 

A very complex and interesting subject. I've said before it needs a change in the electoral system, one that facilitates consensus and not one that is by nature very short termist, one that naturally leads to an uneducated and infantilised electorate. We need a new Beveridge to emerge too. Otherwise we will fracture.

 

 

 

There are some points I agree with and some points I disagree with in all that. Your last comment about electoral reform absolutely is achievable though, and represents the path to resolving the structural problems you mention in the first bold paragraph. 

Also, you're right to point out the existence of a mild north/south divide that would likely be far more akin to Welsh and Scottish nationaism in the North if it wasn't for the fact that northerners, for the most part,  do identify witht the English national identity; the absence of a distinct cultural nation from London and the home counties means that breaking up the UK doesn't feature as an easy fix to local issues derived from national politics. Indeed, the fact that the North of England contributed the most to the referendum outcome in favour of leaving the EU is symptomatic of the absence of an obvious domestic outlet to express disenfranchisement. 

Edited June 11, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

So basically we are literally being forced into this with zero say in the matter? Take back control my rrs.

We were forced into the EEC as well. The government did not seek public approval prior to signing up. Realistically, nobody would ever join any international agreement by referendum look at the referendums across Europe rejecting the EU constitution that resulted in the EU fudging a constitution in all but name by way of the Lisbon Treaty.

Our entry into the EEC was a fait accompli that was retrospectively endorsed by referendum. Doubtless there'll be a referendum on CPTPP pushed by most of the people who condemned a referendum on leaving the EU, doubtless met by cries of how awful referendums are by the people who described the last EU referendum as 'the will of the people'. 

But do remember that the big thing we learnt from the Brexit process, mostly pointed out by remainers objecting to the referendum result, is that parliament is sovereign, not the people. 😉

Edited June 11, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

We were forced into the EEC as well. The government did not seek public approval prior to signing up. Realistically, nobody would ever join any international agreement by referendum look at the referendums across Europe rejecting the EU constitution that resulted in the EU fudging a constitution in all but name by way of the Lisbon Treaty.

Our entry into the EEC was a fait accompli that was retrospectively endorsed by referendum. Doubtless there'll be a referendum on CPTPP pushed by most of the people who condemned a referendum on leaving the EU, doubtless met by cries of how awful referendums are by the people who described the last EU referendum as 'the will of the people'. 

But do remember that the big thing we learnt from the Brexit process, mostly pointed out by remainers objecting to the referendum result, is that parliament is sovereign, not the people. 😉

Yet the referendum was only called because Cameron feared for his sovereignty.

[Herman 9,819]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

We were forced into the EEC as well. The government did not seek public approval prior to signing up. Realistically, nobody would ever join any international agreement by referendum look at the referendums across Europe rejecting the EU constitution that resulted in the EU fudging a constitution in all but name by way of the Lisbon Treaty.

Our entry into the EEC was a fait accompli that was retrospectively endorsed by referendum. Doubtless there'll be a referendum on CPTPP pushed by most of the people who condemned a referendum on leaving the EU, doubtless met by cries of how awful referendums are by the people who described the last EU referendum as 'the will of the people'. 

But do remember that the big thing we learnt from the Brexit process, mostly pointed out by remainers objecting to the referendum result, is that parliament is sovereign, not the people. 😉

We accepted the result but we were allowed to not be happy about it (the fact it was bent as a nine bob note didn't help). But we didn't accept the fact that a large section of people were then completely ignored and abused for stating how bad an idea it still was, "you lost get over it" levels of nonsense.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,580]

28 minutes ago, Herman said:

We accepted the result but we were allowed to not be happy about it (the fact it was bent as a nine bob note didn't help). But we didn't accept the fact that a large section of people were then completely ignored and abused for stating how bad an idea it still was, "you lost get over it" levels of nonsense.

I think it's wrong to characterise the result as 'bent' in a vote that was conducted with all the usual checks to ensure people's votes were counted freely and fairly, but I agree with the broad sentiment. 

[Herman 9,819]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I think it's wrong to characterise the result as 'bent' in a vote that was conducted with all the usual checks to ensure people's votes were counted freely and fairly, but I agree with the broad sentiment. 

Don't get me wrong, the vote and result was legal and legit and done in a proper manner. What came before in the campaigning was extremely bent and illegitimate.