New Tory Leader

[Yellow Fever 3,847]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Agree very much with this YF. There's a very sad article today on Unherd about Boston. The social and economic changes had been going on maybe 50 years. They voted Brexit expecting the government to regain 'control' - worth a read. And you can feel sympathy for local residents (as well as migrants). What the answer is I'm less sure. The area needs a new economic purpose. Levelling Up will not solve it.

As if on-queue

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/31/brexit-lies-tory-billionaire-guy-hands-uk-eu-economy

Say pretty much the same thing.

[sonyc 5,541]

20 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

As if on-queue

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/31/brexit-lies-tory-billionaire-guy-hands-uk-eu-economy

Say pretty much the same thing.

It is as if there has been a torrent of Brexit news. More is being written and reported about it now than ever - so it feels.

I believe it's quite justifiable to be debating and commenting about it here. I'm sure that might be uncomfortable to the likes of one or two but even amongst people who share similar beliefs or values it's worth exchanging information. In doing so we may get some exchange of ideas about (a) how we might attempt to influence our own local decision makers (b) deepen understanding of what kinds of things are important.

I realise the above might sound idealistic but without a discussion any ideas or shared articles cannot be thought through. What's the alternative? Just to let things happen and be like some kind of mushroom?

I keep seeing the news of French strikes - they've always loved their 'manifestations' and it makes me feel in contrast that we are so docile here....

....A Canadian commentator in one of yesterday's articles (may have been The Guardian?) stated that he left the UK to live in Canada 40 years ago and yet when he returns he sees a society that accepts far too much, is interested in drink, football and betting. No interest in politics. I think he was also alluding to the class system and how everybody has been put in their place  over many years (you may recall the panic in 1918 when they were worried that the UK would become like the Russian peasants in the 1917 revolution and revolt here... and so they rushed through a 'homes fit for heroes' housing policy for those returning from the front).

Hands is right. I'm pleased that business leaders are calling out the lies. Newsnight last night was similar when Brexit was discussed. 

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by sonyc

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

His take on this was different to the usual response that the ordinary child is the one that suffers. His view was that it is the UK that suffers because the wrong people end up in the top jobs and cause damage to the country as a whole.

It's just nature versus nurture. All that says is that the state system doesn't do as much to allow kids to fulfill their potential as private schools do. Whose fault is that?

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

27 minutes ago, sonyc said:

It is as if there has been a torrent of Brexit news. More is being written and reported about it now than ever - so it feels.

I believe it's quite justifiable to be debating and commenting about it here. I'm sure that might be uncomfortable to the likes of one or two but even amongst people who share similar beliefs or values it's worth exchanging information. In doing so we may get some exchange of ideas about (a) how we might attempt to influence our own local decision makers (b) deepen understanding of what kinds of things are important.

I realise the above might sound idealistic but without a discussion any ideas or shared articles cannot be thought through. What's the alternative? Just to let things happen and be like some kind of mushroom?

I keep seeing the news of French strikes - they've always loved their 'manifestations' and it makes me feel in contrast that we are so docile here....

....A Canadian commentator in one of yesterday's articles (may have been The Guardian?) stated that he left the UK to live in Canada 40 years ago and yet when he returns he sees a society that accepts far too much, is interested in drink, football and betting. No interest in politics. I think he was also alluding to the class system and how everybody has been put in their place  over many years (you may recall the panic in 1918 when they were worried that the UK would become like the Russian peasants in the 1917 revolution and revolt here... and so they rushed through a 'homes fit for heroes' housing policy for those returning from the front).

Hands is right. I'm pleased that business leaders are calling out the lies. Newsnight last night was similar when Brexit was discussed. 

 

We can take note of it, sure. Voters that regret their choice can learn the lesson about how important taking their vote seriously is for the future and voters that insist they were right all along can think about where they went wrong to lose the argument for future campaigns on other subjects. But what should we debate? Shouldn't have left the EU? Sure. What can we do about that? Nothing.

On the other hand, things we can do stuff about is building new trade relationships elsewhere and/or strengthening existing ones. We can also do stuff about the electoral system, the state of the NHS, supporting Ukraine, repairing the relationship as much as possible by building on the existing trade agreement where possible, building infrastructure, and countless other things. 

All donors like this guy speaking out shows is that this government is on its way out so it's time for them to start courting the opposition more seriously.

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,847]

19 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

We can take note of it, sure. Voters that regret their choice can learn the lesson about how important taking their vote seriously is for the future and voters that insist they were right all along can think about where they went wrong to lose the argument for future campaigns on other subjects. But what should we debate? Shouldn't have left the EU? Sure. What can we do about that? Nothing.

On the other hand, things we can do stuff about is building new trade relationships elsewhere and/or strengthening existing ones. We can also do stuff about the electoral system, the state of the NHS, supporting Ukraine, repairing the relationship as much as possible by building on the existing trade agreement where possible, building infrastructure, and countless other things. 

All donors like this guy speaking out shows is that this government is on its way out so it's time for them to start courting the opposition more seriously.

 

You may be finished with this but please stop trying to close down debate (odd sort of informed democracy that would be) but it seems very topical - spread across all the news channels today but perhaps not in France.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

I think its very important to keep mentioning Brexit whenever possible. There is a GE in two years or less and there are many constituencies where voters would probably like the incontrovertible lies about Brexit to be argued on the stump. To see and hear the incumbent MP refute that so far it has been an unmitigated disaster for them.

Johnson made it an argument at the last GE. It is still right to make it an issue at the next one.

The attitude of fait accompli does not serve justice on what happened between 2016 and 2019.

[sonyc 5,541]

34 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Shouldn't have left the EU? Sure. What can we do about that? Nothing.

On the other hand, things we can do stuff about is building new trade relationships elsewhere and/or strengthening existing ones. We can also do stuff about the electoral system, the state of the NHS, supporting Ukraine, repairing the relationship as much as possible by building on the existing trade agreement where possible, building infrastructure, and countless other things. 

All donors like this guy speaking out shows is that this government is on its way out so it's time for them to start courting the opposition more seriously.

Agree with most of this. It has been done. And also about what the future aims might be. Likewise, agree that the government is on borrowed time. What I would take issue with however is the strength of feeling of folk who wanted to remain. The feeling doesn't go away you know. It may be that those feelings of betrayal last a long time. There was not enough discussion or honesty about the effects. Listening tonight to Frost about democracy and making our own decisions without being beholden to EU laws makes me feel queasy. I mean WTF to be tabloid about it. Those things (like Rees Mogg's fatuous comments and culture war crap) are conceptual and not real. Reality is about the lives of people.

It is about dishonesty. When something feels unfair or dishonest it has the effect of a lack of closure. It's like the feelings of those Hillsborough families we hear about today. The response, by the police and other authorities was plain wrong. As one woman stated, it has been the following decades that have hurt her the most rather than the wait she endured in being pulled out. This may be a clumsy analogy. But I reiterate, it's about honesty and accountability. Even that complete b*stard Johnson today tries to talk it all down as negative thinking. He has little right to tell anybody anything. Not that he will ever stop giving us his entitled opinion.

I get your thoughts that something is done, but folk still wish to discuss it. Can they not do so without feeling they ought not? We both know the answer. Luckily, we have free speech.

Edited January 31, 2023 by sonyc

[Yellow Fever 3,847]

11 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Agree with most of this. It has been done. And also about what the future aims might be. Likewise, agree that the government is on borrowed time. What I would take issue with however is the strength of feeling of folk who wanted to remain. The feeling doesn't go away you know. It may be that those feelings of betrayal last a long time. There was not enough discussion or honesty about the effects. Listening tonight to Frost about democracy and making our own decisions without being beholden to EU laws makes me feel queasy. I mean WTF to be tabloid about it. Those things (like Rees Mogg's fatuous comments and culture war crap) are conceptual and not real. Reality is about the lives of people.

It is about dishonesty. When something feels unfair or dishonest it has the effect of a lack of closure. It's like the feelings of those Hillsborough families we hear about today. The response, by the police and other authorities was plain wrong. As one woman stated, it has been the following decades that have hurt her the most rather than the wait she endured in being pulled out. This may be a clumsy analogy. But I reiterate, it's about honesty and accountability. Even that complete b*stard Johnson today tries to talk it all down as negative thinking. He has little right to tell anybody anything. Not that he will ever stop giving us his entitled opinion.

I get your thoughts that something is done, but folk still wish to discuss it. Can they not do so without feeling they ought not? We both know the answer. Luckily, we have free speech.

Even more so when it is reported that 57% would vote to re-join (I think it's 58% now reported elsewhere). At 60% I think you're into regime change territory 😉. Democracy doesn't stop and people have a right to change their mind especially in the light of experience.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/two-years-on-why-have-some-leave-voters-lost-faith-in-brexit/ 

So yes, ultimately something can be done about it if the nation wants.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,199]

6 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The prevalent predictions were a 'cliff-edge', 'collapse of the pound', 'internationally isolated'. Nothing has happened that remotely qualifies as damage to that extent. Arguably, you could even say remain exagerrated grossly, which is another example of how remain's failure to convince the public was avoidable.

The pound recovered after the 2008 crash, then fell significantly during the Brexit campaign and following the vote 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

50 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Even more so when it is reported that 57% would vote to re-join (I think it's 58% now reported elsewhere). At 60% I think you're into regime change territory 😉. Democracy doesn't stop and people have a right to change their mind especially in the light of experience.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/two-years-on-why-have-some-leave-voters-lost-faith-in-brexit/ 

So yes, ultimately something can be done about it if the nation wants.

If it was on the table to rejoin the EU under any terms then I'd definitely vote for it purely out of my own self-interest. But it won't be on the table because all of the underlying problems in British politics that led to the leave vote are still there and the EU will not want to risk it.

First pre-requisite for even a sniff of rejoining the EU is electoral reform to a proportional system to moderate our political environment, but not many people seem that interested in that, even though it would mean an end to Conservative majority governments.

[Yellow Fever 3,847]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If it was on the table to rejoin the EU under any terms then I'd definitely vote for it purely out of my own self-interest. But it won't be on the table because all of the underlying problems in British politics that led to the leave vote are still there and the EU will not want to risk it.

First pre-requisite for even a sniff of rejoining the EU is electoral reform to a proportional system to moderate our political environment, but not many people seem that interested in that, even though it would mean an end to Conservative majority governments.

It's a journey LYB. Brexit was just a car crash.

[Barbe bleu 836]

4 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

 

The UK hasn't been in the top 10 since 2017 and has now plunged to 18th which as the headline on your highly respected anti-corruption organisation highlights, https://www.transparency.org.uk/uk-corruption-perceptions-index-2022-score-CPI , is our worst ever position.

I

Another way of looking at the figures could be:

Despite the proliferation of reports in mainstream and social media the perception of  corrpution in the UK has barely changed since 2012.

Surprisingly, the 2022 score of 73 was only 1.3% lower than the 74 recorded for 2012. There was an improvement in perception that began once the Liberal Democrats were removed from office and which peaked during May's premiership, but these gains have now been have been reversed.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

1 minute ago, Yellow Fever said:

It's a journey LYB. Brexit was just a car crash.

That's great. Best stop talking about the car crash and start thinking about what sort of car you want to get back on the road with, then figure out where you want to head.

[TheGunnShow 6,057]

Dunno, a full investigation into what caused the car crash, proper safety measures being implemented, and rigorous questioning of those who were the powers-that-be on justifying their decisions at the time should also come into the equation.

No point climbing back into the new car to continue the journey until those have been ironed out.

I'll always agree with a move to PR, a stance I have consistently held on here. But I will also always say our media landscape was too forgiving with those who would spin so the public at large found it harder to make more informed decisions.

Edited January 31, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

6 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Another way of looking at the figures could be:

Despite the proliferation of reports in mainstream and social media the perception of  corrpution in the UK has barely changed since 2012.

Surprisingly, the 2022 score of 73 was only 1.3% lower than the 74 recorded for 2012. There was an improvement in perception that began once the Liberal Democrats were removed from office and which peaked during May's premiership, but these gains have now been have been reversed.

He's indulging in pedantic quibbling over the top 10 bit anyway. We're level with Japan and above France so we're at the better end of the spectrum.  The sharp drop in our CPI is worthy of note, I'll give him that, but it's still coming from a guy who was rubbishing Transparency International's indices a couple of months ago when it suited him.

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

2 hours ago, sonyc said:

Agree with most of this. It has been done. And also about what the future aims might be. Likewise, agree that the government is on borrowed time. What I would take issue with however is the strength of feeling of folk who wanted to remain. The feeling doesn't go away you know. It may be that those feelings of betrayal last a long time. There was not enough discussion or honesty about the effects. Listening tonight to Frost about democracy and making our own decisions without being beholden to EU laws makes me feel queasy. I mean WTF to be tabloid about it. Those things (like Rees Mogg's fatuous comments and culture war crap) are conceptual and not real. Reality is about the lives of people.

It is about dishonesty. When something feels unfair or dishonest it has the effect of a lack of closure. It's like the feelings of those Hillsborough families we hear about today. The response, by the police and other authorities was plain wrong. As one woman stated, it has been the following decades that have hurt her the most rather than the wait she endured in being pulled out. This may be a clumsy analogy. But I reiterate, it's about honesty and accountability. Even that complete b*stard Johnson today tries to talk it all down as negative thinking. He has little right to tell anybody anything. Not that he will ever stop giving us his entitled opinion.

I get your thoughts that something is done, but folk still wish to discuss it. Can they not do so without feeling they ought not? We both know the answer. Luckily, we have free speech.

I don't take issue with people discussing it; I take issue with people dragging it into every single bloody discussion of everything. Russian war on Ukraine? Brexit. Even came up on a flipping football thread the other day. Just throwing in random irrelevant opinions like they're fact. Absolutely ridiculous.

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I don't take issue with people discussing it; I take issue with people dragging it into every single bloody discussion of everything. Russian war on Ukraine? Brexit. Even came up on a flipping football thread the other day. Just throwing in random irrelevant opinions like they're fact. Absolutely ridiculous.

Probably not best to put the word Brexit in the heading when you start topics.

Edited January 31, 2023 by keelansgrandad

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Probably not best to put the word Brexit in the heading when you start topics.

If Brexit's it in the heading then that's fair enough. Mind you, post-Brexit is distinct from Brexit.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

If Brexit's it in the heading then that's fair enough. Mind you, post-Brexit is distinct from Brexit.

Agreed but you have left the door open

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

Just now, keelansgrandad said:

Agreed but you have left the door open

No. Post-Brexit is distinct to Brexit and actually specific in referring to what happens afterwards rather than what happened before.

[Herman 9,848]

Who had Carol Vorderman, Simply Red and Rod Stewart on their Strongly Anti-Tory Government bingo card?

[sonyc 5,541]

17 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I don't take issue with people discussing it; I take issue with people dragging it into every single bloody discussion of everything. Russian war on Ukraine? Brexit. Even came up on a flipping football thread the other day. Just throwing in random irrelevant opinions like they're fact. Absolutely ridiculous.

Must admit I did think of replying simply with the word "Brexit" when Foxy asked on the nature thread why there has been such an "absence of song birds in his half acre garden". 

But even that, though funny for me, was maybe a step too far. So I held back 😂

[littleyellowbirdie 2,611]

7 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Must admit I did think of replying simply with the word "Brexit" when Foxy asked on the nature thread why there has been such an "absence of song birds in his half acre garden". 

But even that, though funny for me, was maybe a step too far. So I held back 😂

That's what makes you a better poster than just about everybody on the non-football side. I include myself in that by the way.

Chapeau.

[A Load of Squit 5,229]

Good work from Hoyle, slaps down the repugnant Gullis and then calls SKS 'Prime Minister'.

 

[benchwarmer 625]

5 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Good work from Hoyle, slaps down the repugnant Gullis and then calls SKS 'Prime Minister'.

 

And that's not all.  On BBC radio at lunchtime in an interview with a minister about the strikes, I heard the interviewer say "The prime minister . . . the current prime minister . . .

Do they know something we don't?😏

Edited February 1, 2023 by benchwarmer

[Herman 9,848]

55 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

And that's not all.  On BBC radio at lunchtime in an interview with a minister about the strikes, I heard the interviewer say "The prime minister . . . the current prime minister . . .

Do they know something we don't?😏

 

[Midlands Yellow 4,115]

Racists and selfish bastards voted Brexit, in a warped way I’m glad we’re paying for it now. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's what makes you a better poster than just about everybody on the non-football side. I include myself in that by the way.

Chapeau.

That is going to make you friends. Is there now a League Table for posters. Can they be reported to OffPink if we don't like their posts or aren't up to sonyc's standard?

Edited February 1, 2023 by keelansgrandad

[sonyc 5,541]

37 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

That is going to make you friends. Is there now a League Table for posters. Can they be reported to OffPink if we don't like their posts or aren't up to sonyc's standard?

Now now KG😉 My stuff is pretty standard to be fair (and is all there on record as evidence of that).

Perhaps a Todd Rundgren appreciation society though! Founding members I reckon🙂

(Ps. He has been a guiding light also for me viz politics and world view...since my early teens at least. Left of centre, certainly his lyrics speak of the need for people to care for one another. Plus, you wouldn't mess with him. Loved his skits on Trump too. Now he appears on Bingo adverts!)

 

Edited February 1, 2023 by sonyc

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

40 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Now now KG😉 My stuff is pretty standard to be fair (and is all there on record as evidence of that).

Perhaps a Todd Rundgren appreciation society though! Founding members I reckon🙂

(Ps. He has been a guiding light also for me viz politics and world view...since my early teens at least. Left of centre, certainly his lyrics speak of the need for people to care for one another. Plus, you wouldn't mess with him. Loved his skits on Trump too. Now he appears on Bingo adverts!)

 

I wasn't having a dig at you Sonyc. I just wanted to reflect on LYB denigrating the rest of us. We all know you are the voice of reason in most areas. I would say above standard.

Todd is resuming Toddstock again this year from 17-25 June in Hawaii. That would be something else to go to. To get to sing and play with the great man would be a big highlight. I could take my Sax and jam.