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4 minutes ago, Fr. Chewy Louie said:

Not sure why tax-fraud (4m Euros worth) gets a pass compared to other forms of crime? He's obviously an amazing footballer, probably the best ever, and wonderful to watch. Does that mean he gets to do a free crime or two? 

The point was that it's not entirely correct to portray him as an absolute model of what a footballer or human should be. Pointing out that he committed a major financial crime isn't finding a stick to beat him with, it's a fact, and relevant to the context.

Incidentally it's not an allegation, he and his father were found guilty and convicted.

As I and others have pointed out, there was no malice in his crime, and the same can be said of Ronaldo, Neymar, Mascherano, Costa etc. They probably asked their advisors if these schemes were above board, and were probably told yes. If you pay an expert to do something for you, it's unlikely you'd start disagreeing with their decisions or there'd be no point hiring them in the first place.

I feel a bit sorry for these guys, really. They paid these experts to look after their finances and these experts ended up costing them millions extra in fines and with suspended prison sentences. 

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The point being that young men with an awful lot of money sometimes make the wrong decision in some way shape or form.

The top players don't let it affect their game either. Footballers have been 'hellraisers' for years an years. It's not just footballers either and certainly not a British thing. 

Luckily the world isn't full of German accountants.

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11 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I feel a bit sorry for these guys, really. They paid these experts to look after their finances and these experts ended up costing them millions extra in fines and with suspended prison sentences. 

Not really. These are high-profile multi-millionaires we are talking about, not small businesses trying to offset tax to keep themselves above water. I assume at any point their accountants could have verified it with their relevant tax authority.

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17 minutes ago, Ian said:

Not really. These are high-profile multi-millionaires we are talking about, not small businesses trying to offset tax to keep themselves above water. I assume at any point their accountants could have verified it with their relevant tax authority.

Correct. But would Messi or Neymar have enough knowledge of tax laws and finance to ask the question themselves? I doubt it.

If you pay a professional to do a job for you, whether it be a financial advisor, a builder, a gasman or whoever else, there's a reasonable expectation that their work won't end up costing you a massive fine, a lengthy court case and a suspended prison sentence.

 

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6 hours ago, BobLoz3 said:

More about his abilities when on the pitch, that, let's be honest.

We all heard the stories about Maddison. Yes he does plenty of nice things around football and says the right things, but acts like a t wat every time he has a drink inside of him.

I went right off him after he left. Good player, undoubtedly. That'll be why Leicester want to keep him and Man U are allegedly interested. But some people in NCFC land give Todd dogs abuse for his hair, the way he's played, a photo he's put on IG. Let me tell you now, Madders is even worse when it comes to showing off.

Maybe he'll regret it in a few years, maybe not, but it won't matter to him because he'll already be rich beyond any of our wildest dreams at that point. 

Natural talent and arrogance is not a bad mix for a young footballer. Just need a good manager and sound players around him. And a lot of hard work, which, to be fair he puts in. He’s on a mission to be the best he can be. Good luck to him.

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27 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

Correct. But would Messi or Neymar have enough knowledge of tax laws and finance to ask the question themselves? I doubt it.

If you pay a professional to do a job for you, whether it be a financial advisor, a builder, a gasman or whoever else, there's a reasonable expectation that their work won't end up costing you a massive fine, a lengthy court case and a suspended prison sentence.

 

Perhaps. I suspect they weren't quite as naive as you are implying though.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Fr. Chewy Louie said:

Not sure why tax-fraud (4m Euros worth) gets a pass compared to other forms of crime? He's obviously an amazing footballer, probably the best ever, and wonderful to watch. Does that mean he gets to do a free crime or two? 

The point was that it's not entirely correct to portray him as an absolute model of what a footballer or human should be. Pointing out that he committed a major financial crime isn't finding a stick to beat him with, it's a fact, and relevant to the context.

Incidentally it's not an allegation, he and his father were found guilty and convicted.

who says any fraud gets a pass?    I didn't, nor did I imply it.     The points are though, it isn't relevant to behaviour in terms of being drunk or being arrogant in a pub to cause fights (perhaps Maradona is fair game in that regard) which is what was being debated but it's also that people are so quick to find a reason to dig, rarely quick to compliment.....  how is Messi relevant to that debate?   

Edited by ged in the onion bag

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2 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

This  Madders is a twerp  convo has got me thinking.  I wonder, given DFs fairly rigorous  training and his Germanic way if the current academy students and other young players have been told in no uncertain terms about their behaviour  when not actually at work. I played against lots of reserve and under 23 sides in the Dortmund /Paderborn/ Beilefeld area and those young guys were seriously focused, no messing , little or no backchat to referees etc. The after match drinks were an eye opener  too, those players, though given access to alcohol , mostly stuck to minerals  or 1small beer and then onto water etc.Very disciplined indeed.This was early eighties though so things may have changed. I hope DF has brought some of that with him  , as in the long run it will serve us well as a Club. 

That’s definitely the impression I get of Zimbo, he takes it all very seriously.

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33 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

who says any fraud gets a pass?    I didn't, nor did I imply it.     The points are though, it isn't relevant to behaviour in terms of being drunk or being arrogant in a pub to cause fights (perhaps Maradona is fair game in that regard) which is what was being debated but it's also that people are so quick to find a reason to dig, rarely quick to compliment.....  how is Messi relevant to that debate?   

Depriving the country of revenue that could pay for schools, nurses, cancer treatment etc. is not a trivial crime. Being a drunken tw*t is.

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3 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Yep, guilty  only of not being 'on the ball ' so to speak with his own tax affairs ......and who could blame an average  guy for not knowing that stuff, it's what we pay accountants for. 

 

Yes, probably the best footballer in the world but definitely not the sharpest knife in the drawer employing your old man as your tax advisor.

Conflict of interest doesn't even cover it....

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Also, now I’m on my high horse about this, it’s the rich who have the ability to use tax dodging methods and employ experts to reduce their tax liability, when they are the ones who most able to pay more. The rest of us don’t get an option, we just have to pay up. Tax avoidance/evasion on this scale is not remotely ok and anyone trying it should be ashamed. It only takes a minute to say to your accountant “I want my tax affairs to be spotless - no dodgy schemes please”.

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4 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

The point being that young men with an awful lot of money sometimes make the wrong decision in some way shape or form.

The top players don't let it affect their game either. Footballers have been 'hellraisers' for years an years. It's not just footballers either and certainly not a British thing. 

Luckily the world isn't full of German accountants.

Not quite sure what you are picking on the Germans when the UK is the world champion at tax evasion. One in 3 bank accounts in tax havens worldwide are controlled by a British person or Corporation. One in three. 

Try reading 'Treasure Islands, the men who stole the world'. It will open your eyes to what is happening in this country. 

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1 hour ago, Nuff Said said:

Also, now I’m on my high horse about this, it’s the rich who have the ability to use tax dodging methods and employ experts to reduce their tax liability, when they are the ones who most able to pay more. The rest of us don’t get an option, we just have to pay up. Tax avoidance/evasion on this scale is not remotely ok and anyone trying it should be ashamed. It only takes a minute to say to your accountant “I want my tax affairs to be spotless - no dodgy schemes please”.

I agree completely with you there.

However, for all we know, the players may have asked the accountants if everything was above board and the accountants said yes.

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7 minutes ago, Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man said:

I agree completely with you there.

However, for all we know, the players may have asked the accountants if everything was above board and the accountants said yes.

Equally, he could have said evade as much tax as you possibly can. We don't know, so using what he may have said as a defence, isn't really useful. I'm not saying they should be held up as a bad example, but equally not excused either.

Can any one of us really claim to have not ever acted like a c0ck after a few beers?

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Just now, All the Germans said:

Equally, he could have said evade as much tax as you possibly can. We don't know, so using what he may have said as a defence, isn't really useful. I'm not saying they should be held up as a bad example, but equally not excused either.

Exactly. We just don't know.

But the fact that so many top players in Spain have been found guilty of tax evasion by investing millions in offshore accounts means that it's highly likely they all used financial advisors for their personal contracts and image rights who decided it was the best course of action.

The chances that all these players somehow researched and taught themselves about these complicated loopholes independently of each other is slim to none.

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3 hours ago, All the Germans said:

Equally, he could have said evade as much tax as you possibly can. We don't know, so using what he may have said as a defence, isn't really useful. I'm not saying they should be held up as a bad example, but equally not excused either.

Can any one of us really claim to have not ever acted like a c0ck after a few beers?

Some of us don't need any beers to accomplish this.

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4 hours ago, All the Germans said:

Equally, he could have said evade as much tax as you possibly can. We don't know, so using what he may have said as a defence, isn't really useful. I'm not saying they should be held up as a bad example, but equally not excused either.

Can any one of us really claim to have not ever acted like a c0ck after a few beers?

 

56 minutes ago, Feedthewolf said:

Some of us don't need any beers to accomplish this.

Glad none of us are sober on here then 😉

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