Corona Virus main thread

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, paul moy said:

Obsession to remain has been very dangerous .... it has caused Boris to take his eyes off the ball, and it is indeed all of the fault of remainers.

There was a very dangerous man emerged in the 1920s who blamed his countrys problems on everyone else. That is all you do. I expect you to stand up for your privileged idols but not to just lie and blame something or someone else. Your mates have been in power for over 10 years and still cannot get to grips with running a country. What is the debt going to be at the end of this year?

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

There was a very dangerous man emerged in the 1920s who blamed his countrys problems on everyone else. That is all you do. I expect you to stand up for your privileged idols but not to just lie and blame something or someone else. Your mates have been in power for over 10 years and still cannot get to grips with running a country. What is the debt going to be at the end of this year?

Debt is going to be horrendous. Biggest charge is furlough payments. Do you want to stop them?

[Barbe bleu 833]

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

Apologies if this has been posted before

 

Thanks Ron.   Its the basis on which everyone was working but nice to see stats on reinfection confirmed in controlled studies.

What also stood out for me is the cross immunity aside.  Potentially a very important component when it  comes to explaining/understanding differences across the world and in protecting us against the next coronavirus to rear its head.

Edited January 5, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[ricardo 7,414]

17 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

Let's be clear about this. Vaccine rollout is the first real test of UK vs EU ability to perform in a post-Brexit world. At the very first task we have the UK up and running with a vaccination program that is about to be scaled up by a magnitude. 

Across the Channel we learn that both Merkel and Macron embargoed the ordering of sufficient Pfizer doses, even though the company offered them, and instead handed the process over to the EU, who ordered doses on a political basis. Orders went to Sanofsi who are a year away simply on the basis that they are French.

 

The bare facts are that the UK's vaccine procurement programme has been a major success story and has been streets ahead of that of the E.U. Something a certain section on here just cannot accept.

[Barbe bleu 833]

10 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The bare facts are that the UK's vaccine procurement programme has been a major success story and has been streets ahead of that of the E.U. Something a certain section on here just cannot accept.

I think everyone accepts that the UK backed the right horses and was impressively early on licencing.  However, there is still a long way to go. so whilst a million plus by the new year is an undoubted achievement there is still a long road ahead.

And of course this new variant will have greatly increased the number of people we need to get before we hit the critical threshold so we do need things to fall in our favour.

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Barbe bleu

[Well b back 3,284]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I understand that the Indian government has just banned export for the time being so looks like Covax is at the back of the queue.

Hi again Ricardo

This is the absolute latest news from India in the last few minutes. 

India will begin exporting locally-made coronavirus vaccines within a fortnight of their launch, a foreign ministry official has told the BBC.

The official dismissed reports that India would ban exports of vaccines it is producing to meet local demand.

India makes about 60% of vaccines globally and many countries are eagerly waiting for it to begin shipping doses.

It has formally approved the emergency use of two vaccines as it prepares to begin giving jabs in January.

India plans one of the world's biggest inoculation, seeking to immunise about 300 million people by July.

The foreign ministry official confirmed that India's plan to help other countries was on track.

"Within a fortnight of the rollout of the vaccines we will allow exports to some of our South Asian neighbours. Some of these exports will be paid by us as gifts, and the others will be supplied at roughly the same price the government will be buying the vaccines at," the foreign ministry official, who preferred to remain unnamed, told me.

"India is completely conscious of its commitments to neighbours and the rest of the world as the world's biggest vaccine maker."

 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

6 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I think everyone accepts that the UK backed the right horses and was impressively early on licencing.  However, there is still a long way to go. so whilst a million plus by the new year is an undoubted achievement there is still a long road ahead.

And of course this new variant will have greatly increased the number of people we need to get before we hit the critical threshold so we do need things to fall in our favour.

 

In France everyone eligible for a jab has to be counselled by a GP first. Then there is a cooling off period in case the person wishes to change their mind. 

With a system like that good luck with vaccinating your population anytime soon!

[ricardo 7,414]

8 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Hi again Ricardo

This is the absolute latest news from India in the last few minutes. 

India will begin exporting locally-made coronavirus vaccines within a fortnight of their launch, a foreign ministry official has told the BBC.

The official dismissed reports that India would ban exports of vaccines it is producing to meet local demand.

India makes about 60% of vaccines globally and many countries are eagerly waiting for it to begin shipping doses.

It has formally approved the emergency use of two vaccines as it prepares to begin giving jabs in January.

India plans one of the world's biggest inoculation, seeking to immunise about 300 million people by July.

The foreign ministry official confirmed that India's plan to help other countries was on track.

"Within a fortnight of the rollout of the vaccines we will allow exports to some of our South Asian neighbours. Some of these exports will be paid by us as gifts, and the others will be supplied at roughly the same price the government will be buying the vaccines at," the foreign ministry official, who preferred to remain unnamed, told me.

"India is completely conscious of its commitments to neighbours and the rest of the world as the world's biggest vaccine maker."

 

Certainly much better than the earlier news reports.👍

[Herman 9,838]

47 minutes ago, ricardo said:

The bare facts are that the UK's vaccine procurement programme has been a major success story and has been streets ahead of that of the E.U. Something a certain section on here just cannot accept.

Maybe the year of constant shambolic failure has clouded our judgment?!

[ricardo 7,414]

8 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Hi again Ricardo

This is the absolute latest news from India in the last few minutes. 

India will begin exporting locally-made coronavirus vaccines within a fortnight of their launch, a foreign ministry official has told the BBC.

The official dismissed reports that India would ban exports of vaccines it is producing to meet local demand.

India makes about 60% of vaccines globally and many countries are eagerly waiting for it to begin shipping doses.

It has formally approved the emergency use of two vaccines as it prepares to begin giving jabs in January.

India plans one of the world's biggest inoculation, seeking to immunise about 300 million people by July.

The foreign ministry official confirmed that India's plan to help other countries was on track.

"Within a fortnight of the rollout of the vaccines we will allow exports to some of our South Asian neighbours. Some of these exports will be paid by us as gifts, and the others will be supplied at roughly the same price the government will be buying the vaccines at," the foreign ministry official, who preferred to remain unnamed, told me.

"India is completely conscious of its commitments to neighbours and the rest of the world as the world's biggest vaccine maker."

 

Certainly much better than the earlier news reports.👍

[ricardo 7,414]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

Maybe the year of constant shambolic failure has clouded our judgment?!

Either foggy down in Hertfordshire or the queue of lorries waiting at Dover has tailed back further than anyone expected.

[kirku 1,339]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

It's no small surprise that our Remainer chums suddenly want to shutdown all comparisons between countries because like we always told you, a nimble UK will outbox the tired old EU at every opportunity. 

The UK regulator, the MHRA, chief executive, Dr June Raine - "we have been able to authorise the supply of this vaccine using provisions under European law, which exist until 1 January".

The UK vaccine rollout (which is not world leading, Israel has vaccinated over 10x more per 100 people), was done entirely within the bounds of EU law. 

Unsurprisingly, your narrative is completely flawed.

 

[Yellowfuture 71]

2 minutes ago, kirku said:

The UK regulator, the MHRA, chief executive, Dr June Raine - "we have been able to authorise the supply of this vaccine using provisions under European law, which exist until 1 January".

The UK vaccine rollout (which is not world leading, Israel has vaccinated over 10x more per 100 people), was done entirely within the bounds of EU law. 

Unsurprisingly, your narrative is completely flawed.

 

Did any of the EU counties break ranks and go for a more speedy approval?

[kirku 1,339]

6 minutes ago, Yellowfuture said:

Did any of the EU counties break ranks and go for a more speedy approval?

Yes. Hungary wants to use the Russian vaccine.

Denmark is ahead of all other EU countries in terms of numbers (but I'm unsure if that's because they've just stuck needles in arms a lot faster than the rest).

The first person in the EU was vaccinated on the 27th December. The first person in the UK was vaccinated on the 8th of December. Given the logistics at hand, talk of being the first is pretty inane. Going back to Israel, they started on the 19th of December but are streets ahead of the UK now. 

It's about the speed of delivery not some pedantic race for the first jab.

Edited January 5, 2021 by kirku

[ricardo 7,414]

11 minutes ago, kirku said:

The UK regulator, the MHRA, chief executive, Dr June Raine - "we have been able to authorise the supply of this vaccine using provisions under European law, which exist until 1 January".

The UK vaccine rollout (which is not world leading, Israel has vaccinated over 10x more per 100 people), was done entirely within the bounds of EU law. 

Unsurprisingly, your narrative is completely flawed.

 

Unfortunately the EMA didn't have the wherewithall to do the same thanks to leaving much of their expert personnel in the U.K when they skipped off to Amsterdam. A lthough after extensive chivvying they did manage to bring their  approval meeting forward by a week.

Edited January 5, 2021 by ricardo

[kirku 1,339]

Just now, ricardo said:

Unfortunately the EMA didn't have the wherewithall to do the same thanks to leaving much of their expert personnel in the U.K when the skipped off to Amsterdam. A lthough after extensive chivvying they did manage to bring their  approval meeting forward by a week.

Entirely irrelevant to the point raised. Brexit provided absolutely no benefit to the UK in being the first to approve the vaccine.

Although, as I've just pointed out in the recent post, being first is asinine. It's speed of delivery that counts.

[ricardo 7,414]

What proved of benefit was the decision not to take part in the E.U. scheme and organise our own procurement. The fact that we were still in the E.U. at the time is neither here nor there.

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

31 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

In France everyone eligible for a jab has to be counselled by a GP first. Then there is a cooling off period in case the person wishes to change their mind. 

With a system like that good luck with vaccinating your population anytime soon!

Oh dear RTB. Isn't that exactly what I said! All countries are different, different priorities and have different ways of going about things - even in the EU! 

Its good that we got going quickly on the Belgian/German vaccine (we needed too given our huge death/case rate) and made an EMERGERNCY AUTHORIZATION but I don't think it has anything to do with the EU itself. Other countries within the EU could also have (& some did) make EMERGENCY AUTHORIZATIONS to use any vaccine they like. It just that you can't market across EU borders a non EMA vaccine.

So I'm really not sure what petty point you are trying to make. If you wanted to be first for a vaccine China or Russia.

By the way - all this is mute until you get your vaccine!

[Yellowfuture 71]

6 minutes ago, kirku said:

Yes. Hungary wants to use the Russian vaccine.

Denmark is ahead of all other EU countries in terms of numbers (but I'm unsure if that's because they've just stuck needles in arms a lot faster than the rest).

The first person in the EU was vaccinated on the 27th December. The first person in the UK was vaccinated on the 8th of December. Given the logistics at hand, talk of being the first is pretty inane. Going back to Israel, they started on the 19th of December but are streets ahead of the UK now. 

It's about the speed of delivery not some pedantic race for the first jab.

Thanks, I had thought that all the EU countries were waiting for the approval from the European Medicines Agency, interesting that Hungary stepped out of this and presumably used their own approval mechanisms so that they could vaccinate earlier.

[Well b back 3,284]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Let's be clear about this. Vaccine rollout is the first real test of UK vs EU ability to perform in a post-Brexit world. At the very first task we have the UK up and running with a vaccination program that is about to be scaled up by a magnitude. 

Across the Channel we learn that both Merkel and Macron embargoed the ordering of sufficient Pfizer doses, even though the company offered them, and instead handed the process over to the EU, who ordered doses on a political basis. Orders went to Sanofsi who are a year away simply on the basis that they are French. 

Let's be under no illusion, this foobar means thousands will die in Europe simply through the beurocratic delay and posturing of the EU. 

It's no small surprise that our Remainer chums suddenly want to shutdown all comparisons between countries because like we always told you, a nimble UK will outbox the tired old EU at every opportunity. 

So no, let's not start sharing with the EU. Everyone knows how to stick a needle in an arm. It's not that difficult. Let's plough our own furrow, motor ahead, always keeping an eye on the rear view mirror so that we maintain our world leading position and get the country jabbed before the frogs and the rest of them. 

Interesting perspective in March you said

Another reason to be cautious is the memory of the thalidomide tragedy, in which a drug developed for cancer treatment caused malformed limbs in newborn babies. So there really cannot be any short cuts made in testing because there may be unforeseen consequences.

I fully support our emergency usage as the tests began 4 1/2 years ago. Others like Europe and Australia have decided to go with what they feel are no short cuts for full approval rather than emergency usage. No way is the best way only time will tell but if you make false promises your citizens will complain, we most of Europe and America made false promises.

If any EU nation complete their vaccination programme before us are you going to say Brexit was a disaster ? I’m not.

Have you noticed how he can’t force himself to use the words ‘ Sarah Gilbert ‘ or Andrew Pollard. 
 

[kirku 1,339]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

What proved of benefit was the decision not to take part in the E.U. scheme and organise our own procurement. The fact that we were still in the E.U. at the time is neither here nor there.

And that decision and capability happened within EU law and therefore Brexit provided no benefit at all. Hungary started to use the Russian Sputnik V vaccine. Member states have full control over their own vaccine rollout.

Besides, speed of distribution is what is important, not being a few days or weeks ahead.

[kirku 1,339]

5 minutes ago, Yellowfuture said:

Thanks, I had thought that all the EU countries were waiting for the approval from the European Medicines Agency, interesting that Hungary stepped out of this and presumably used their own approval mechanisms so that they could vaccinate earlier.

Supply issues with the Russian vaccine have caused them issues - and they couldn't market or distribute outside of their own borders. EU law was no hindrance to procurement, in any case.

[Yellowfuture 71]

3 minutes ago, kirku said:

Supply issues with the Russian vaccine have caused them issues - and they couldn't market or distribute outside of their own borders. EU law was no hindrance to procurement, in any case.

I just came across this which suggests that Germany and Hungary started vaccinating one day before the other EU states?  I thought you meant that some EU countries had started vaccinating well before the others, maybe I have missed something.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/germany-and-hungary-roll-out-vaccine-early-upsetting-plans-for-eu-wide-rollout-on-sunday/ar-BB1cfD07?c=8436659145714066722%2c4573163938479657171&mkt=en-gb%2cen-us

 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Yellowfuture

[Yellow Fever 3,841]

1 minute ago, kirku said:

And that decision and capability happened within EU law and therefore Brexit provided no benefit at all. Hungary started to use the Russian Sputnik V vaccine. Member states have full control over their own vaccine rollout.

Besides, speed of distribution is what is important, not being a few days or weeks ahead.

Thanks Kirku - I think you said in more detail what I was getting at. Emergency authorization has nought to do with the EU - same as EU states closing internal borders. Emergency powers within EU law same as we did.

I guess it's the best outright ill informed nonsense some can do to justify their decision. 

The fact is that the UK is in more of a world beating emergency than most at present! All home grown.

[kirku 1,339]

4 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Another reason to be cautious is the memory of the thalidomide tragedy, in which a drug developed for cancer treatment caused malformed limbs in newborn babies. So there really cannot be any short cuts made in testing because there may be unforeseen consequences.
 

Thalidomide is not a vaccine.

It's like saying, "be careful about the Moderna jab, the US also invented that notorious napalm concoction"

[ricardo 7,414]

3 minutes ago, kirku said:

And that decision and capability happened within EU law and therefore Brexit provided no benefit at all. Hungary started to use the Russian Sputnik V vaccine. Member states have full control over their own vaccine rollout.

Besides, speed of distribution is what is important, not being a few days or weeks ahead.

I didn't claim that it did, merely that the correctness of our decision to go for independent procurement, which many criticised at the time has been born out by events.

[Well b back 3,284]

Just now, kirku said:

Thalidomide is not a vaccine.

It's like saying, "be careful about the Moderna jab, the US also invented that notorious napalm concoction"

Hi K

I know that, that is what he said in March, when comparing to the Oxford vaccine.

[kirku 1,339]

2 minutes ago, Yellowfuture said:

I just came across this which suggests that Germany and Hungary started vaccinating one day before the other EU states?  I thought you meant that some EU countries had started vaccinating well before the others, maybe I have missed something.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/germany-and-hungary-roll-out-vaccine-early-upsetting-plans-for-eu-wide-rollout-on-sunday/ar-BB1cfD07?c=8436659145714066722%2c4573163938479657171&mkt=en-gb%2cen-us

 

I laid out the timelines of the first jabs that were relevant to the discussion.

But, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, it really isn't very important.

[Yellowfuture 71]

Suggestions that borders may be being closed, I wonder how much of the South African variant is already in the UK!!

[kirku 1,339]

4 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I didn't claim that it did, merely that the correctness of our decision to go for independent procurement, which many criticised at the time has been born out by events.

Unless being part of the EU programme precluded the UK from striking other deals, we should've done both.