Trouble In Paradise

[Crabbycanary3 994]

 

https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/463098/4-wins-in-his-32-games/#33

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

What the Ipswich fans have failed to understand all summer is that they have fallen foul of the Financial Fair Play rules for League 1. They may have money for transfer fees but they are probably at the maximum on wages already. 

Suggestions that Evans has trousered money are absolute nonsense. He has lost an awful lot of money. 

He was slightly naughty in the early days. He bought the £30m Aviva loan for £7m but charged interest on the full £30m and that interest rolled up over a number of years and forms a big chunk of the £90m that the club owes him. Nothing illegal about that but it wasn't what Sheepshanks thought was going to happen. In recent years the interest charges have stopped but Evans has been putting in an average of £5m a year for some time. My understanding is that the FFP rules in League 1 will bring that to an end and added to that they will have less money coming in through the gate and £6m less from TV. 

I like to think of it as the perfect storm😂

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

1 minute ago, dylanisabaddog said:

What the Ipswich fans have failed to understand all summer is that they have fallen foul of the Financial Fair Play rules for League 1. They may have money for transfer fees but they are probably at the maximum on wages already. 

Suggestions that Evans has trousered money are absolute nonsense. He has lost an awful lot of money. 

He was slightly naughty in the early days. He bought the £30m Aviva loan for £7m but charged interest on the full £30m and that interest rolled up over a number of years and forms a big chunk of the £90m that the club owes him. Nothing illegal about that but it wasn't what Sheepshanks thought was going to happen. In recent years the interest charges have stopped but Evans has been putting in an average of £5m a year for some time. My understanding is that the FFP rules in League 1 will bring that to an end and added to that they will have less money coming in through the gate and £6m less from TV. 

I like to think of it as the perfect storm😂

It's not just money he's trousered according to some, it's ANYTHING not nailed down. 

Hope you have some evidence to prove what you've just said 😉

[Bill 1,788]

15 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

What the Ipswich fans have failed to understand all summer is that they have fallen foul of the Financial Fair Play rules for League 1. They may have money for transfer fees but they are probably at the maximum on wages already. 

Suggestions that Evans has trousered money are absolute nonsense. He has lost an awful lot of money. 

He was slightly naughty in the early days. He bought the £30m Aviva loan for £7m but charged interest on the full £30m and that interest rolled up over a number of years and forms a big chunk of the £90m that the club owes him. Nothing illegal about that but it wasn't what Sheepshanks thought was going to happen. In recent years the interest charges have stopped but Evans has been putting in an average of £5m a year for some time. My understanding is that the FFP rules in League 1 will bring that to an end and added to that they will have less money coming in through the gate and £6m less from TV. 

I like to think of it as the perfect storm😂

nope, that's why hat figure never appears on the accounts and why the debt has not increased in line with that supposed figure

[ron obvious 1,502]

Some of the saner Town fans get it:

https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/463108/flynn-cant-react-like-that-and-he-knows-it-.../#18

"Dont bring that game back. 

Lambert tried to make it all about him because his previous club were 3 goals to the good without even trying. 

The fact Farke remained sat, cool as a cucumber with a cheeky wink to the camera made it all the more embarrassing."

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

12 minutes ago, Bill said:

nope, that's why hat figure never appears on the accounts and why the debt has not increased in line with that supposed figure

https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/ipswich-town-finances-2017-18-figures-revealed-1-5806217

This article outlines the finances of our dear friends although it doesn't explain how much of the £95m is loans and how much is unpaid interest on the amount Evans has loaned in the past. It doesn't actually make much difference. But the article does confirm the figures in my last post. Which part of the £95m debt don't you understand? The debt appears in the accounts as a related party transaction 

Edited August 2, 2019 by dylanisabaddog

[splendidrush 700]

Bills' claim that Evans has taken everything that isn't nailed down is correct, as it would appear that he now owns everything and they have nothing left to sell.

However, it would seem that this was done to minimize Evans' financial commitment, rather than just increasing the debt while there were assets of value.

Regardless, it's clear that they're in one hell of a hole. Lambert knows that he can't turn this around, and veiled barbs at Evans is his way of appeasing the fans, but he knows that Evans holds all the cards, because he hold the purse strings.

My guess, he's gone by Christmas.....

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

7 hours ago, splendidrush said:

Bills' claim that Evans has taken everything that isn't nailed down is correct, as it would appear that he now owns everything and they have nothing left to sell.

However, it would seem that this was done to minimize Evans' financial commitment, rather than just increasing the debt while there were assets of value.

Regardless, it's clear that they're in one hell of a hole. Lambert knows that he can't turn this around, and veiled barbs at Evans is his way of appeasing the fans, but he knows that Evans holds all the cards, because he hold the purse strings.

My guess, he's gone by Christmas.....

Absolute nonsense. It was almost certainly his intention at the start to make a lot of money out of Ipswich but at the moment he has lost a small fortune. He bought the training ground from the club at market rate. He certainly didn't rip them off. 

ITFC currently owes him £95m. Of that amount £30m was the amount of the loan he took over from Aviva and that cost him £7m. That means that he has subsequently funded the club to the tune of £65m. 

He has made some appalling managerial appointments and seems to have little interest in the club now but he certainly can't be accused of taking everything that's not nailed down. On the contrary, he has lost a huge amount of money which I doubt he'll ever get back. 

You really should be careful about making wild, extravagant and probably libelous claims of dishonesty on a public forum. One day you may live to regret it. 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,561]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Absolute nonsense. It was almost certainly his intention at the start to make a lot of money out of Ipswich but at the moment he has lost a small fortune. He bought the training ground from the club at market rate. He certainly didn't rip them off. 

ITFC currently owes him £95m. Of that amount £30m was the amount of the loan he took over from Aviva and that cost him £7m. That means that he has subsequently funded the club to the tune of £65m. 

He has made some appalling managerial appointments and seems to have little interest in the club now but he certainly can't be accused of taking everything that's not nailed down. On the contrary, he has lost a huge amount of money which I doubt he'll ever get back. 

You really should be careful about making wild, extravagant and probably libelous claims of dishonesty on a public forum. One day you may live to regret it. 

 

Yes. I think there is a basic question here. Under most scenarios is Evans going to end up better off or worse off at the end of his ownership, and the likely answer is worse off. And although he has definitely made mistakes, the reality is that if he didn't keep on putting in some money the club might well have gone to the wall by now.

[Rich T The Biscuit 562]

4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

Yes. I think there is a basic question here. Under most scenarios is Evans going to end up better off or worse off at the end of his ownership, and the likely answer is worse off. And although he has definitely made mistakes, the reality is that if he didn't keep on putting in some money the club might well have gone to the wall by now.

Exactly, who in their right mind would want to take over the debt that the club owes to Evans, no one.

It’s a slippery slope for the club now and will likely get worse before/if it gets better.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

29 minutes ago, Rich T The Biscuit said:

Exactly, who in their right mind would want to take over the debt that the club owes to Evans, no one.

It’s a slippery slope for the club now and will likely get worse before/if it gets better.

It is widely suggested south of the border that Evans would sell for £30m and in return write off his debt. In exchange for your £30m you get a League 1 football club that has no assets at all. They don't even own the land they play on or train on.

The FFP rules in League 1 are extremely restrictive

http://www.financialfairplay.co.uk/scmp.php

Ipswich will receive a significant amount in a sell on clause on at least one player but the fact is that they are probably up to the 60% FFP wage limit already so they don't have much room to manoeuvre. 

The only way for Evans to get his money back is promotion to the Premier League. I would say it's an even bet at the moment that they are just as likely to  eventually end up in League 2😂

 

[splendidrush 700]

5 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Absolute nonsense. 

 

Which part in particular?

 

5 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

 

You really should be careful about making wild, extravagant and probably libelous claims of dishonesty on a public forum. One day you may live to regret it. 

 

Not sure that there's anything 'wild' 'extravagant ' 'libelous' or 'dishonest' in what I've said but you're free to clarify that for me. 

[CANARYKING 638]

According to TWTD because they won today they are already organising the open top bus parade

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

4 hours ago, splendidrush said:

Which part in particular?

 

Not sure that there's anything 'wild' 'extravagant ' 'libelous' or 'dishonest' in what I've said but you're free to clarify that for me. 

Quote from your earlier post -

Bills' claim that Evans has taken everything that isn't nailed down is correct, as it would appear that he now owns everything and they have nothing left to sell.

However, it would seem that this was done to minimize Evans' financial commitment, rather than just increasing the debt while there were assets of value.

 

I have no great love of Ipswich Town or Marcus Evans but stating he has taken everything that wasn't nailed down is just not the case. Quite why you would wish to make such an unpleasant allegation is beyond me. Try sticking to the facts. 

 

 

 

[splendidrush 700]

5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Quote from your earlier post -

Bills' claim that Evans has taken everything that isn't nailed down is correct, as it would appear that he now owns everything and they have nothing left to sell.

However, it would seem that this was done to minimize Evans' financial commitment, rather than just increasing the debt while there were assets of value.

 

I have no great love of Ipswich Town or Marcus Evans but stating he has taken everything that wasn't nailed down is just not the case. Quite why you would wish to make such an unpleasant allegation is beyond me. Try sticking to the facts. 

 

 

 

If you have the facts enlighten me, what do 1p5wich actually own.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

7 hours ago, splendidrush said:

If you have the facts enlighten me, what do 1p5wich actually own.

Ipswich have never owned the land on which their stadium stands. That is nothing to do with Marcus Evans. Early on in his ownership, Evans bought the training ground from the club at open market value and rents it to the club for a nominal rent. That is quite common these days and was probably done to protect it from creditors should their financial position get worse. 

As at June 2018, Evans had put about £60m into the club which has been used to finance running costs. 

What Evans has done wrong is to employ some poor managers like Keane, Jewell and Hurst and allowed the club to overspend on wages. Even in Mccarthy's time they were in some seasons spending more on wages than their income. 

His crime, if you want to call it that, is allowing the club to be run badly. He hasn't taken anything that wasn't nailed down because there was nothing to take. 

[BroadstairsR 2,166]

Actually, I believe that it is quite a long lease with the council, who are unlikely to be bad landlords to the local football team.

Also,I think that there are caveats  in place restricting usage to the extent that the land can never be sold off for development.

The long lease is the most valuable asset that the club has.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

12 minutes ago, BroadstairsR said:

Actually, I believe that it is quite a long lease with the council, who are unlikely to be bad landlords to the local football team.

Also,I think that there are caveats  in place restricting usage to the extent that the land can never be sold off for development.

The long lease is the most valuable asset that the club has

Quite right although the lease will be shown as a liability on the balance sheet. They also have a couple of replica trophies from 40 years ago when they used to have a football team. 

[Bill 1,788]

43 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Ipswich have never owned the land on which their stadium stands. That is nothing to do with Marcus Evans. Early on in his ownership, Evans bought the training ground from the club at open market value and rents it to the club for a nominal rent. That is quite common these days and was probably done to protect it from creditors should their financial position get worse. 

As at June 2018, Evans had put about £60m into the club which has been used to finance running costs. 

What Evans has done wrong is to employ some poor managers like Keane, Jewell and Hurst and allowed the club to overspend on wages. Even in Mccarthy's time they were in some seasons spending more on wages than their income. 

His crime, if you want to call it that, is allowing the club to be run badly. He hasn't taken anything that wasn't nailed down because there was nothing to take. 

Given as Evans is the sole creditor of any note, what would he be doing ? Protecting himself from himself ?

As to 'open market value' there was no open market'. It was shifted to an off shore company and the supposed value was added to the credit side of the balance sheet. Something the paupers only learnt of way after the deed. And then only if they read the accounts. Hardly 'open market'.

It is not correct to to say " Evans had put about £60m into the club " given that the figure of £60m includes interest, at a rate set by him and charged upon a figure he did not pay for. Hardly 'putting money in'.

As to what else he has 'made off with' then I give you the numerous transfer fees that never seem to show up as being put back into the squad - check how much of this summers 'sell on' money goes to the squad. Something that Lambert has alluded to already.

Evans has not been some kindly bebedactor guilty of well intentioned mismanagement. Take a look at poorman road. It is a sh ithouse, something the paupers constantly complain about. Upkeep is below the bare minimum. How much of their unexpected summer windfall would it take to paint the place, upgrade facilities and sort the pitch out ?

For a man who has supposedly put in £60m he seems extremely reluctant to spend a few thousand quid of the money generated by the club.

[splendidrush 700]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Ipswich have never owned the land on which their stadium stands. That is nothing to do with Marcus Evans. Early on in his ownership, Evans bought the training ground from the club at open market value and rents it to the club for a nominal rent. 

 

I never mentioned ownership of the land. I know that he bought the training ground, I didn't talk about what he paid for it. 

 

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

 

As at June 2018, Evans had put about £60m into the club which has been used to finance running costs. 

 

I'm aware that he's put money into the Club and what it's being used for. 

 

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

 

His crime, if you want to call it that, is allowing the club to be run badly. He hasn't taken anything that wasn't nailed down because there was nothing to take. 

No one mentioned a 'crime' as I said, he took the training ground and sold off any talent at the Club without re investing. Even the sell on profits for Webster, Clarke and even Kieffer Moore has gone to Evans. Lambert pointed out that so far he's picked up 2 freebies and a loan,  with no budget to help him get them up.

Still looking for the wild, extravagant, and libelous, as you've basically backed up my comments. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

You are confusing 'open market' with 'open market value'. He paid what the club would have received if the land was put on the open market. That is not an uncommon transaction in football these days and it makes sense as it protects the land from creditors. And obviously you wouldn't want an unrelated third party owning your training ground. 

Your most serious allegation is that Evans has stolen money received from transfer fees. That is fraud and would require a conspiracy involving accountants and auditors and would be of huge interest to HMRC and the police. There is absolutely no evidence that has happened. Money received from transfer fees has been used to cover overheads, predominantly the players wages which have historically been well in excess of turnover. Exactly the same thing has happened at Carrow Road. 

You seem to thing I see Evans as a benevolent benefactor. I don't. I think he is an awful, grubby man but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to suggest that he has stolen money from Ipswich Town. He does seem to have bought the club with a view to getting promoted to the Premier league and making an immediate profit of £23m on the Aviva loan which is not nice but certainly not illegal. 

The point about how much money he has actually parted with is, I agree, difficult to compute without all the accounts including management accounts. But he bought a loan from Aviva which cost him £7m and at the same time he acquired a majority shareholding which won't have been cheap. The Aviva loan of £30m became a loan owed by Ipswich to Evans. He effectively acquired a £30m debt for £7m. So at the time of the takeover he was owed £30m and that figure now stands at £95m. In the early years he charged interest on the loan but that practice ceased around 5 years ago. The unpaid interest on the loan in the early years was around £15m so the amount he has spent is around £60m. 

Our own football club did exactly the same thing and overspent on wages under the previous regime but we just about covered our losses with the receipt some huge transfer fees. There for the grace of God...... 

 

[Bill 1,788]

Some while back the simple farmhands were being encouraged to hand over money to the club on the basis that they were funding an macadam that was soon to upgrade to Cat 1.

Unsurprisingly that never happened.......though the money was collected.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

3 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

I never mentioned ownership of the land. I know that he bought the training ground, I didn't talk about what he paid for it. 

 

I'm aware that he's put money into the Club and what it's being used for. 

 

No one mentioned a 'crime' as I said, he took the training ground and sold off any talent at the Club without re investing. Even the sell on profits for Webster, Clarke and even Kieffer Moore has gone to Evans. Lambert pointed out that so far he's picked up 2 freebies and a loan,  with no budget to help him get them up.

Still looking for the wild, extravagant, and libelous, as you've basically backed up my comments. 

You are again alleging that Evans has taken money from transfer fees. Do you have any evidence at all for that? Your suggestion that he is taking money out of the club is ludicrous. The club owes him £95m!  

[Bill 1,788]

3 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You are confusing 'open market' with 'open market value'. He paid what the club would have received if the land was put on the open market. That is not an uncommon transaction in football these days and it makes sense as it protects the land from creditors. And obviously you wouldn't want an unrelated third party owning your training ground. 

Your most serious allegation is that Evans has stolen money received from transfer fees. That is fraud and would require a conspiracy involving accountants and auditors and would be of huge interest to HMRC and the police. There is absolutely no evidence that has happened. Money received from transfer fees has been used to cover overheads, predominantly the players wages which have historically been well in excess of turnover. Exactly the same thing has happened at Carrow Road. 

You seem to thing I see Evans as a benevolent benefactor. I don't. I think he is an awful, grubby man but I certainly wouldn't go as far as to suggest that he has stolen money from Ipswich Town. He does seem to have bought the club with a view to getting promoted to the Premier league and making an immediate profit of £23m on the Aviva loan which is not nice but certainly not illegal. 

The point about how much money he has actually parted with is, I agree, difficult to compute without all the accounts including management accounts. But he bought a loan from Aviva which cost him £7m and at the same time he acquired a majority shareholding which won't have been cheap. The Aviva loan of £30m became a loan owed by Ipswich to Evans. He effectively acquired a £30m debt for £7m. So at the time of the takeover he was owed £30m and that figure now stands at £95m. In the early years he charged interest on the loan but that practice ceased around 5 years ago. The unpaid interest on the loan in the early years was around £15m so the amount he has spent is around £60m. 

Our own football club did exactly the same thing and overspent on wages under the previous regime but we just about covered our losses with the receipt some huge transfer fees. There for the grace of God...... 

 

You have no knowledge of what the value of the training ground was as it was not on the open market ie tested as to it's value

I fail to see who these other creditors would be.

The debt to Norwich Unin was around £32m.

No one has stated that he has stolen anything, that is you just setting up an 'aunt sally'.

City's 'over spend' was due to having contracts that could not be met by a drastic change in income.

Why would Evans sanction wages way above their income year after year to the tune of millions yet not carry out the basic upkeep of the ground costing thousands, or employ enough match day staff that cost hundreds ?

[splendidrush 700]

3 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

You are again alleging that Evans has taken money from transfer fees. Do you have any evidence at all for that? Your suggestion that he is taking money out of the club is ludicrous. The club owes him £95m!  

From what I've read, 1p5wich have no debt, Marcus Evans has the debt, which he owes to himself. 

He's been looking for a buyer for a while now but the Club is only worth @30 mill, meaning he has to write off the rest if he sells. 

Any money that comes into the Club, by way of sell on clauses goes back into the Club, of course but it means that Evans doesn't have to put so much of his own money in to balance the books. 

They're about 9 mill light this season, with the sell ons and the wage cuts, he's still going to have to put in a huge chunk but there won't be any money for Lambert. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

2 minutes ago, Bill said:

You have no knowledge of what the value of the training ground was as it was not on the open market ie tested as to it's value

I fail to see who these other creditors would be.

The debt to Norwich Unin was around £32m.

No one has stated that he has stolen anything, that is you just setting up an 'aunt sally'.

City's 'over spend' was due to having contracts that could not be met by a drastic change in income.

Why would Evans sanction wages way above their income year after year to the tune of millions yet not carry out the basic upkeep of the ground costing thousands, or employ enough match day staff that cost hundreds ?

When assets are transferred between connected parties an independent expert is used to value the asset and that valuation is tested by HMRC. 

The other creditors would be the same local people that were shafted when ITFC went into administration. And of course there would be other clubs who are owed transfer fees. 

If you are saying that Evans has taken transfer fees received and that is not reflected in the accounts then what are you alleging other than theft? Are you saying the accounts are incorrect? 

Our overspend was due to mismanagement. That fact has been clearly laid out by Webber on numerous occasions. We are paying now for our previous sins but on the bright side we got away with it. 

I have no idea why Evans doesn't paint the ground. I would guess that he thinks that enough is enough and he doesn't want to go over £100m.

[dylanisabaddog 4,921]

3 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

From what I've read, 1p5wich have no debt, Marcus Evans has the debt, which he owes to himself. 

He's been looking for a buyer for a while now but the Club is only worth @30 mill, meaning he has to write off the rest if he sells. 

Any money that comes into the Club, by way of sell on clauses goes back into the Club, of course but it means that Evans doesn't have to put so much of his own money in to balance the books. 

They're about 9 mill light this season, with the sell ons and the wage cuts, he's still going to have to put in a huge chunk but there won't be any money for Lambert. 

Oh dear. You can't owe money to yourself. Marcus Evans and Ipswich Town are separate legal entities.

The very simplistic view of some Ipswich fans is that a debt owed to your owner doesn't count. Fortunately for the rest of us, Ipswich Town fans don't write our laws. It counts very much as it affects the value of the club. 

Evans would almost certainly cut his losses and take £30m. But who is going to pay £30m for a loss making business with no assets and a debt which is probably now in excess of £100m? If the Ipswich fans think they are going to be saved by a Knight in Shining Armour they must live in cloud cuckoo land. 

They won't however be going into administration any time soon. Evans is the only real creditor so there would be no point. He would lose all the money he has put in. 

[Bill 1,788]

With a close relative working for a London borough as a surveyor valuing property for inheritance claims etc, those values are very arbitrary to say the least..

I very much doubt that Evans moved the training ground out of the club's ownership to protect it from future creditors.

Money can be shifted around various interlinked companies without breaking the law - creative accounting is what I think they call it

Our overspend was not due to mismanagement but relegation as that supposed overspend only became an overspend when our income was cut by relegation. As long as we were in the PL we could afford those wages

Given that the extra money generated from sell on payments was generated by the club why would Evans think " that enough is enough and he doesn't want to go over £100m " if he didn't see money from the club was his to do with as he pleases ?

[Bill 1,788]

17 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

They're about 9 mill light this season, with the sell ons and the wage cuts, he's still going to have to put in a huge chunk but there won't be any money for Lambert. 

I doubt.

Their income is certain to be around £7m less this season through having lower TV rights money. I would expect that an ending of a number of contracts and sale of players would reduce the wage bill considerably, and bear in mind there is still time for them to offload more players (watch this space)

[splendidrush 700]

2 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Oh dear. You can't owe money to yourself. Marcus Evans and Ipswich Town are separate legal entities.

The very simplistic view of some Ipswich fans is that a debt owed to your owner doesn't count. 

So when Evans took the training ground and put it into one of his other companies, why would he do that?

Of course the debt counts, if he sells the Club for 30 mill, he has to write off all the money that he's put in.