What a Worthy Mess

[Northern Yella 0]

I''m sure thus has been written many times already, I just have to get this off my chest because quite frankly it is doing my head in. Worthy''s performance in the transfer market has been absolutely terrible for quite some time. This summer what on earth was he thinking! At the time I was quite pleased we had signed Hughes, but having watched him a few times I firmly believe we might as well have kept Gary Holt and saved the money. Yes, he was out of his depth in the Premiership, but he would have done a job for us in the Championship for one more year at least.

As for getting rid of Mark Edworthy, why?!?! I mean he is far better than Louis Jean or Colin and again he would have saved us money. And then there is Thorne why did we waste money on him when we could have just kept Svennson, who although often injured would have been a very good player at this level, valuable especially when Leon was injured.

And do we really need to say anything about a player that Worthy then lets out on loan just a few months into the season?!

So, do I want Worthy to go? Well, I will give him a bit of time but if we don''t make the playoffs I certainly don''t think we should renew his contract, who knows maybe Steve Bruce will be available by then? I just hope that if we sell Ashton he doesn''t go and waste a lot of money. I was watching Sean Thornton play for Doncaster last night and I have to say he would walk into our midfield at the moment. Worthy quite simply needs a good New Year, and to employ some good scouts to get us out of this hole we are in. Mid season report: NOT GOOD ENOUGH. 

[ZLF 335]

The issue of losing players like Eddy, Holt and Sven are seperate from their replacements.    Eddy left because he would not accept the contract on offer, Holt was so slaughtered by the fans for the managements persistance in picking him meant he was doomed to failure and he did look past his best in any event, and Sven was looking for some security when his numerous leg injuries meant it would not be sensible to match the 3 year contract offered from Sweden.     At the time these decisions were all sound IMO.   

For the replacement players all except Colin were proven at this level and did not cost a fortune.  They were and remain sound additions to the squad.   Sadly though the midfield was left too short of numbers and options and not enough flair as the manager focused on his work ethic ahead of ball playing ability.

The big issue with all these players for me is we have not been able to get he players to re-create their performance levels seen at previous clubs.  If one player does that it is unfortunate - moves fail for a variety of reasons.   That so many repeatedly fail to deliver suggests a more fundamental error in how those players are managed - motivated, utlised and coached.  Thorne on the right wing, dropping Colin as he was bedding in really boosts his confidence,  JJ played as a right winger against Millwall, MLJ, like Helveg last season, given two starts then dropped like a hot potato without having a chance. Robinson and Etuhu have also failed to play to their ability.   The only one playing to his ability is Hughes probably as the manager has shown more faith in him than any of the others.

The signings were OK - but if the management will insist on playing to players weaknesses why are we surprised when they dont perform well?

 

OTBC    

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

I think you make some very good points there zipper - when the players were brought in they all seemed like good buys (for frees). 

In hindsight they are not but we cannot scout like worthy and his team.  All I can quote is Andy hughes has 5 assists in 5 years at reading! and when i saw we were paying mojney for him i started to get worried  Hughes Safri Center Midfield!!!!

Seriously though a ball playing midfielder to play alongside Safri is all we really need to get back in the goals.  Unfortunatly Worthy is not looking in this area and in fact earlier in the season when everyone could see the problems in central midfield he was quoted as saying he was happy with what he had there..... 

When all and sundry were calling for a midfielder he got davenport in on loan!!!  weeks later and he finally realises where the problem actually lies.

[no1canary 0]

im pretty sure MLJ has been injured since the 2nd game, not because he weren''t good enough.

i feel that the signings we made were not bad, they just simply aren''t being managed right? jarrett looks a different player at plymouth, but when he gets back, im sure he will be a different player again! (the bad one)

[percyvarco 0]

Edworthy left because Worthy cut his nose off to spite his face. A two year deal was offered and, as is his right, Eddy decided to see how things panned out. He then went back to Worthy who reduced the offer to a one year deal. Another demonstration of personality issue before Footballing common sense.

I agree with the thoughts on Robinson (listed as Paul Robinson on the back of my Programme on Sat!!) and Etuhu. I have seen nothing to say they should be signed. 

[Salopian 1]

Perhaps Jarrett has underperformed, - certainly Wigan seemed to want to take him into the Premiership, but the messages we were getting from Readings fans about Hughes were remarkably accurate. They were amazed at the £500k price we might have to pay. Ditto LJ, where there was no protest from the Forest fans at the swap.The Charlton fans have the same view of Lisbie as we do, and Etuhu was accurately described before he came. Robinson was unable to get into a poor team and was available for loan. Need we say more? The only signing who played consistently well was Davenport, and we all knew that he was class. The jury might still be out on Colin, but so far positionally he has looked very immature at times.It seems that at Plymouth Jarrett has impressed. Perhaps our set-up and tacttics have not suited him, or he has just not settled. In any event he has shown nothing to suggest that he is in the Francis mould!I think we have to say that for every excellent signing made by Worthy in his time in charge as many as five were dross. Some of them were bought out, and some have disappeared without trace!

[Huddy 0]

Louis jean was part of forests dreadful defence the got relegated

Reading werent upset to lose hughes and are doing well without him

if Colin was very highlyrated why did psv let him go

Wigan didn''t try very hard to keep jarret

Thorne hasnt done anything for 2 years.

On the other hand

Edworthy never did anything wrong and is a regular at derby

Svenson was a good player at this level

and going back further Mackay is now a regular at high flying watford

and also danny crow is scoring goals, goals and GOALs

[Plastic Scouser 0]

I don''t think it would take too much effort to realise that the reason Jarrett has impressed at Plymouth is that he hasn''t exactly got a lot to measure up against has he - and that was from a Pirates fan....!

[YankeeCanary 0]

This thread, and the responses it draws, is what I find appealing about this forum. Some excellent points made to open the thread. Some responses to try and balance the points made, e.g. Zippers input tries to do that with some good points of his own but also perhaps makes a couple of sweeping statements that are questionable. I am singling you out Zippers because you normally do a reasonably good job of balancing input to provide perspective. I think you failed to do that here on important points. With respect to signings that are not performing you said "we have been unable to re-create the performance levels these players had with their previous clubs. IMO, Salopian correctly identifies that much was known in advance to suggest those performances were inadequate before the players ( Jarrett aside ) even put pen to paper for Norwich. Percyvarco then correctly identifies what occurred in the Edworthy situation. So, all in all, some good input from all those posting allows the reader to get a better sense of what has actually transpired, and where we need to improve as a club.  

 

[Syteanric 1]

Louis Jean was also part of Forests "dreadful" defence for the past 7 years.. that didnt get relegated immediately and played in Europe.

jas :)

[0Amarillo<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>ddMMyyyy0Falseen-US<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>True 0]

[quote user="Norwichboy"]

I''m sure thus has been written many times already, I just have to get this off my chest because quite frankly it is doing my head in. Worthy''s performance in the transfer market has been absolutely terrible for quite some time. This summer what on earth was he thinking! At the time I was quite pleased we had signed Hughes, but having watched him a few times I firmly believe we might as well have kept Gary Holt and saved the money. Yes, he was out of his depth in the Premiership, but he would have done a job for us in the Championship for one more year at least.

As for getting rid of Mark Edworthy, why?!?! I mean he is far better than Louis Jean or Colin and again he would have saved us money. And then there is Thorne why did we waste money on him when we could have just kept Svennson, who although often injured would have been a very good player at this level, valuable especially when Leon was injured.

And do we really need to say anything about a player that Worthy then lets out on loan just a few months into the season?!

So, do I want Worthy to go? Well, I will give him a bit of time but if we don''t make the playoffs I certainly don''t think we should renew his contract, who knows maybe Steve Bruce will be available by then? I just hope that if we sell Ashton he doesn''t go and waste a lot of money. I was watching Sean Thornton play for Doncaster last night and I have to say he would walk into our midfield at the moment. Worthy quite simply needs a good New Year, and to employ some good scouts to get us out of this hole we are in. Mid season report: NOT GOOD ENOUGH. 

[/quote]

Here are some simple responses to your points.

1) You say his performance in the transfer market has been terrible for some time. How far back do you go? Do you include Ashton in January, or Safri last summer?

2) If Gary Holt could have done a job at this level, how come he''s not doing a job at the next level down (according to reports)?

3) I believe Thorne was a free transfer, we didn''t waste any money on him. Svensson wanted to return home/not play in the Championship, so I don''t think it was an option to keep him.

4) We don''t need to renew his contract anyway, it''s a rolling contract. We can only cancel it (sack him). If Ashton goes, is the profit made not entirely the good work of Worthington? Or are you one of these people who blame his for things that don''t work out but place credit for things that do at someone else''s door?

5) Is your ambition to have Steve Bruce as manager? If so, is that on his recent record, or on his longer record?

[Robbo007 0]

Hughes is the only signing who''s performance I have been dissapointed with so far, although I haven''t been too surprised, given the reaction that Reading fans couldn''t believe we''d payed 500k for him.

MLJ, and to a point, Thorney, have been unfit. JJ was has always looked unfit imo, but there''s a good chance he''ll return from Plymouth a new player. As someone else said, Colin would not have been released by PSV if he was any good.

When its mattered, Worthy''s buys have generally been ok.

Steve Bruce?!! you''ve totally contradicted yourself by complaining about the Worthy signings, and then hoping Bruce comes on board. Yeh, i''d love to see my ticket money being used on Giving poor players such as Pennant, Heskey, Butt, Pandiani and Melchiot 30 grand a week each!!

[ZLF 335]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

This thread, and the responses it draws, is what I find appealing about this forum. Some excellent points made to open the thread. Some responses to try and balance the points made, e.g. Zippers input tries to do that with some good points of his own but also perhaps makes a couple of sweeping statements that are questionable. I am singling you out Zippers because you normally do a reasonably good job of balancing input to provide perspective. I think you failed to do that here on important points. With respect to signings that are not performing you said "we have been unable to re-create the performance levels these players had with their previous clubs. IMO, Salopian correctly identifies that much was known in advance to suggest those performances were inadequate before the players ( Jarrett aside ) even put pen to paper for Norwich. Percyvarco then correctly identifies what occurred in the Edworthy situation. So, all in all, some good input from all those posting allows the reader to get a better sense of what has actually transpired, and where we need to improve as a club.  

 

[/quote]

 

Good to have you back YC - but I stand by my comments,

Of the new players:-

Thorne - had a proven record over several years of scoring goals at this level, never played any higher

MLJ - played at this level for several years and always reasonable rated, with pace and ability to defend and get forward.  Yes part of a poor forest defence that got relegated but seemed a sound signing who could be re-energised with a fresh challenge at a new club.

Hughes - I posted couldnt trap a sand bag in the summer - sadly proved right - performing as expected

Colin - never played at this level, untried so unable to comment

JJ - not seen anything like what he did with either Wigan or now Plymouth

Etuhu - His ability does seem spasmodic with his best PNE form some time ago - perhaps unfair to commenton him

Robinson - is a proven passer at this level with both pompey and sunderland yet gets ratings of 2 while with us.

These are champ level performers with a good track record who are not coming to the end of the their careers yet cannot perform for us - I think my comments are fair on the whole.

 

OTBC 

 

 

 

[Northern Yella 0]

Amarillo, all very well to applaud Worthy for signing Ashton, but really we all knew he was a good player, it wasn''t rocket science was it?! We don''t have a team of scouts to help us find those bargin or quality buys. As for Saf, quite often Worthy was playin Holt ahead of him which I and many others found strange. Thorne, fair enough he was free, but from what I heard Svensson wud have stayed if we were ready to offer him a further two years, but Worthy said he was too old, enter Peter Thorne. As for the contract, yep I knew he was on a rolling contract for me to offer him another year wud be renewing it, but don''t want to get into technicalities. Good to have someone addressing the points, and taking what I had written seriously.

As for me contradicting myself, yeah I''m aware sayin Steve Bruce wud be available may well upset a few, but IMO he is a better manager and wud be great for the club.  

Good discussion people. Have a good Christmas and let''s hope for three points on Boxing Day

[lucky green trainers 0]

for me - using players in wrong positions, failing to get quality players to perform at their level of ability and poor managerial decisions explain our current position. e.g. although a utility player, hughes mostly played right back for reading didn''t he?  in that case, was it mad to open first day of season with essentially 2 full backs in central midfield - hughes and charlie, keeping JJ on the bench until 85th minute? we could have won that game, or was worthy making a point to the city board, like he did in worthy cup against northampton 2 years ago, playing teenage strikers up front and city losing. cash for hucks, crouch and harper followed?Retaining, either eddy/helveg, jonson/cooper, svensson - would have been preferable to worthy''s summer signings.  we''d be in top 6 at this stage, IMO.Steve bruce is in a hole at birmingham, make no mistake, and i see he was using right sided midfielder as a right full back aginst man u midweek, who looked like a fish out of water and let saha in front of him for the first goal. Birmingham players looked v.short of confidence and with their quality, they are underperforming big-time.HUDDLE anyone!

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

This thread, and the responses it draws, is what I find appealing about this forum. Some excellent points made to open the thread. Some responses to try and balance the points made, e.g. Zippers input tries to do that with some good points of his own but also perhaps makes a couple of sweeping statements that are questionable. I am singling you out Zippers because you normally do a reasonably good job of balancing input to provide perspective. I think you failed to do that here on important points. With respect to signings that are not performing you said "we have been unable to re-create the performance levels these players had with their previous clubs. IMO, Salopian correctly identifies that much was known in advance to suggest those performances were inadequate before the players ( Jarrett aside ) even put pen to paper for Norwich. Percyvarco then correctly identifies what occurred in the Edworthy situation. So, all in all, some good input from all those posting allows the reader to get a better sense of what has actually transpired, and where we need to improve as a club.  

You know, I write a post about a thread started by Hayden which received no remarks when I genuinely felt it merited one or two. I had a gentle dig, tongue in cheek, at Wiz in doing so and what does Yankee Canary call me....''Condescending''.

In doing so I am reminded that I am just a newcomer challenging the views and styles of existing posters and then I read the above which is a patronising synopsis of comments on a thread with a step by step guide as to how to interpret them.

I appreciate you may actually be an American YC and I know we are one people seperated by a common language but my dictionary tells me condescention is where you behave as if on equal terms with (an inferior) while maintaining an attitude of superiority.

People in glass houses shouldn''t throw rocks.

 

[/quote]

[The Duke of Norfolk 0]

Steve Bruce!

It always amazes me that when there is speculation about our manager and possible candidates for the position that many fans always put his name forward.

STEVE BRUCE HAS DONE NOTHING IN FOOTBALL MANAGEMENT.

Yeah, sure he got Brum promoted but then so could a lot of managers with the squad that they had. He has spent alot of money at Brum and bought some quality players but look where they are. All he ever did before that was walk out on clubs and leave them in the shit. Sheffield Utd, Palace, Huddersfield and Wigan?

The guy has and never will do anything in football management.