The Positive Brexit Thread

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

2 hours ago, dj11 said:

On a lighter note, I have just received my first Brexit benefit, my Irish passport has just arrived. Without Brexit I would not have bothered, but having done so, I know so much more about my Irish heritage. My grandfather lied about his age to join the Royal Navy and led everyone to believe he was an orphan, when he was in fact born in a Dublin Workhouse out of wedlock. We couldn’t even trace his birth certificate, just an entry in the workhouse register. 

Congratulations.

We visited Wedlock on our last trip to ROI, we couldn't find the maternity home just outside of it.

[Pyro Pete 1,897]

BBC News - "The UK has stopped its trade talks with Canada, after nearly two years of negotiations on a post-Brexit agreement.

"It will also mean the UK's trading terms with Canada will now be worse than when it was part of the EU's deal with the country."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68098177

Great job, everyone!

[Fen Canary 829]

5 hours ago, Pyro Pete said:

BBC News - "The UK has stopped its trade talks with Canada, after nearly two years of negotiations on a post-Brexit agreement.

"It will also mean the UK's trading terms with Canada will now be worse than when it was part of the EU's deal with the country."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68098177

Great job, everyone!

You wanted hormone treated beef in the UK did you? 

[Herman 9,779]

5 hours ago, Pyro Pete said:

BBC News - "The UK has stopped its trade talks with Canada, after nearly two years of negotiations on a post-Brexit agreement.

"It will also mean the UK's trading terms with Canada will now be worse than when it was part of the EU's deal with the country."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68098177

Great job, everyone!

At least we have the MOUs to help us out.🤨

 

[MooreMarriot 310]

As predicted in 2016 but dismissed as " project fear " at the time.

"Several factors make Britain less attractive than the EU to the pharmaceutical trade, Hill said.“The UK has additional regulations, higher taxes and is a much smaller country to work with than the European region. Those are all disincentives for drug manufacturers to supply to the UK, a country of 66 million people, when they have a much bigger market of [450 million] nearby that is eager to secure their products.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/25/eu-plan-medicine-stockpile-uk-record-shortages

[Herman 9,779]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

You wanted hormone treated beef in the UK did you? 

You did. You've been cheering for this and the anzac's poison they were going to dump on us. 

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

You wanted hormone treated beef in the UK did you? 

No we wanted to continue trading with Canada by being in the EU.

[Fen Canary 829]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

You did. You've been cheering for this and the anzac's poison they were going to dump on us. 

I’ve lived in these countries in the past and ate the meat no problem so it wouldn’t have bothered me, however if it would have been bad for domestic farmers I’m happy enough for them to be halted. I only want trade deals that benefit the country as a whole 

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

13 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’ve lived in these countries in the past and ate the meat no problem so it wouldn’t have bothered me, however if it would have been bad for domestic farmers I’m happy enough for them to be halted. I only want trade deals that benefit the country as a whole 

We had loads of them when we were in the EU, that's why the Tories rolled them over, now that we don't have the backing of the largest economic block we have to accept bad terms or get shafted.

Edited January 26 by A Load of Squit

[horsefly 4,301]

3 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

You wanted hormone treated beef in the UK did you? 

And there you show your failure to recognise that Brexit has left the UK massively weakened in trade negotiations. A weakness that was exploited by Japan, New Zealand, and Australia, all of whom came out of the deals far better than the UK (Go ask the NFU).

When we were in the EU we had a free trade deal with Canada called the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement It did not require us to accept hormone treated beef. Outside of the EU our feeble bargaining position resulted in Canada demanding that we accept hormone treated beef or just F-off. Result: 240% tariffs slapped on Stilton and 2-years of wasted negotiations. That is Brexit reality before your very eyes, but I suspect you will continue to pretend it isn't.

[horsefly 4,301]

2 hours ago, MooreMarriot said:

As predicted in 2016 but dismissed as " project fear " at the time.

"Several factors make Britain less attractive than the EU to the pharmaceutical trade, Hill said.“The UK has additional regulations, higher taxes and is a much smaller country to work with than the European region. Those are all disincentives for drug manufacturers to supply to the UK, a country of 66 million people, when they have a much bigger market of [450 million] nearby that is eager to secure their products.”

 

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2024/jan/25/eu-plan-medicine-stockpile-uk-record-shortages

If only someone had explained properly the incredibly complex idea that businesses with a fiduciary duty to maximise profits for their shareholders would find a market of 450m people more attractive than a market of 67m people. How could anyone be expected to understand those figures???

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

It gets worse ...

 

[Fen Canary 829]

13 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And there you show your failure to recognise that Brexit has left the UK massively weakened in trade negotiations. A weakness that was exploited by Japan, New Zealand, and Australia, all of whom came out of the deals far better than the UK (Go ask the NFU).

When we were in the EU we had a free trade deal with Canada called the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement It did not require us to accept hormone treated beef. Outside of the EU our feeble bargaining position resulted in Canada demanding that we accept hormone treated beef or just F-off. Result: 240% tariffs slapped on Stilton and 2-years of wasted negotiations. That is Brexit reality before your very eyes, but I suspect you will continue to pretend it isn't.

In this instance yes we had better terms previously than we’ll have now. However in my eyes it’s a price worth paying to no longer be a member of the bloc. 

[horsefly 4,301]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

In this instance yes we had better terms previously than we’ll have now. However in my eyes it’s a price worth paying to no longer be a member of the bloc. 

Indeed, "In your eyes". How comforting do you think that is for the thousands of businesses that have lost out because of the insanity of Brexit? I expect a government to be influenced by the best interests of the country, not some utterly false and decrepit notion of sovereignty that has proved to be a complete chimera.

[BigFish 1,988]

7 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

In this instance yes we had better terms previously than we’ll have now. However in my eyes it’s a price worth paying to no longer be a member of the bloc. 

Keynes wrote "The inactive investor who takes up an obstinate attitude about his holdings and refuses to change his opinion merely because facts and circumstances have changed is the one who in the long run comes to grievous loss." Pretty much majority opinion is that Brexit was a mistake, the cost wasn't worth it and the promises are unfulfilled. That you haven't changed your mind is no surprise. As Swift said Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Brexit seems to have worked out well for those who are linked to our political masters, but generally been a failure for the rank-and-file so far.

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

21 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

In this instance yes we had better terms previously than we’ll have now. However in my eyes it’s a price worth paying to no longer be a member of the bloc. 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[BigFish 1,988]

 

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

45 minutes ago, BigFish said:

As Swift said Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.

A good quote irrespective of the Brexit disaster. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

 

There's been a lot of fuss on here about hormone treated beef. This was a major area of criticism regarding both the Australian deal and the New Zealand deal. Would you rather the UK government just rolls over and admits hormone treated beef from Canada? Or is it simply that the EU says hormone treated beef is bad so it must be true (they've never offered evidence supporting the suggestion that hormone treated beef is health risk for humans).

The reality is this is simply the nature of any negotiation process. The absence of an agreement also creates pressure on the Canadian government as well as our own given that business in Canada is also used to trading with the UK on EU rules. But yet again everything gets hysterically labelled 'a disaster for Britain'.

Edited January 26 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

bad

1 hour ago, BigFish said:

Keynes wrote "The inactive investor who takes up an obstinate attitude about his holdings and refuses to change his opinion merely because facts and circumstances have changed is the one who in the long run comes to grievous loss." Pretty much majority opinion is that Brexit was a mistake, the cost wasn't worth it and the promises are unfulfilled. That you haven't changed your mind is no surprise. As Swift said Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired.

Trouble is, if you all were reasoning, you'd have accepted what had happened as being what it is and moved on by now rather than going around in your own circle jerk on the subject indefinitely trying to paint a bigger disaster than the reality.

Edited January 26 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

In this instance yes we had better terms previously than we’ll have now. However in my eyes it’s a price worth paying to no longer be a member of the bloc. 

The problem is that you're battling with people whose idea of 'reason' is looking at everything only through the narrow lens of trade agreements and GDP while ignoring the fact that this is actually only one facet of the EU.

[horsefly 4,301]

39 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There's been a lot of fuss on here about hormone treated beef. This was a major area of criticism regarding both the Australian deal and the New Zealand deal. Would you rather the UK government just rolls over and admits hormone treated beef from Canada?

And still the Brexiteer denial goes on. We HAD a free trade deal with Canada. It did NOT require us to import hormone treated beef. Brexit has been a massive blow to the UK's negotiating powers, which is precisely why the Canadians were so insistent on including accepting hormone treated beef as a condition of any deal. Our position is so weak they simply told us to F-off and slapped 245% levy on UK cheese. Similarly, India told us to F-off until we came back with proposals that included a massive increase in the numbers of Indian citizens with the right to emigrate to the UK. Every country in the world knows we are easy pickings after committing the absurd self-inflicted harm Brexit has delivered.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

12 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And still the Brexiteer denial goes on. We HAD a free trade deal with Canada. It did NOT require us to import hormone treated beef. Brexit has been a massive blow to the UK's negotiating powers, which is precisely why the Canadians were so insistent on including accepting hormone treated beef as a condition of any deal. Our position is so weak they simply told us to F-off and slapped 245% levy on UK cheese. Similarly, India told us to F-off until we came back with proposals that included a massive increase in the numbers of Indian citizens with the right to emigrate to the UK. Every country in the world knows we are easy pickings after committing the absurd self-inflicted harm Brexit has delivered.

Where's the denial? The trade agreement we had was consequent of being members of the EU. We're no longer members of the EU. That was a decision made by the British people so it's really pointless going on about it. In the meantime, if the Canadians won't move on hormones and we won't cave on it, then that's just the way it is.

My point is that your narrow focus on trade agreements is both fallacious and also very inconsistent given the way you dismiss all discussion about anything progressing outside the EU (except focussing on any downsides).

It's fair enough for Canada to try it on on this subject, and it's fair enough for us to walk away. That's how negotiation works. Either way, hormone treated beef really isn't as important as you make out. Or at least, there's no scientific evidence that it's as important as you make out.

Edit: Actually, given the veterinary barriers that the EU has insisted on in new trade agreements with the EU, I wonder if it may not be time to revisit the question of whether it's reasonable to continue regulating against hormone treatment in the absence of scientific evidence against it, giving the UK industry the opportunity to compete better in non-EU markets.

Edited January 26 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,301]

33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The problem is that you're battling with people whose idea of 'reason' is looking at everything only through the narrow lens of trade agreements and GDP while ignoring the fact that this is actually only one facet of the EU.

Feel free to explain those other facets of the EU where Brexit has seen us make gains worth the massive costs Brexit has caused. BTW Utterly vacuous flag waving about "gaining our freedom" where you can not point to any substantive freedoms we have gained won't do. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Feel free to explain those other facets of the EU where Brexit has seen us make gains worth the massive costs Brexit has caused. BTW Utterly vacuous flag waving about "gaining our freedom" where you can not point to any substantive freedoms we have gained won't do. 

If there's a need for that, you should have paid more attention in the run up to the referendum. Maybe that's why you can still fail to get why people like Fen and Ricardo are still fine with us having left the EU in spite of the obvious economic downsides that they all acknowledge.

Edited January 26 by littleyellowbirdie

[BigFish 1,988]

52 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

bad

Trouble is, if you all were reasoning, you'd have accepted what had happened as being what it is and moved on by now rather than going around in your own circle jerk on the subject indefinitely trying to paint a bigger disaster than the reality.

Not at all, that we have left the EU is accepted. The majority also recognise it has been an unmitigated disaster. There remains a Brexiteer legacy, not least within the Conservative Party and Parliament that continue "going round in your own circle jerk" as you put it, in denial. The GE in 2024 will be the first post-Brexit election and we will sweep these nut jobs out of power and back into the fringes where they belong. Only then can steps start to be taken to fix this mess. The country has moved on, soon the government will, perhaps it is time for you to wake up and smell the coffee.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

10 minutes ago, BigFish said:

Not at all, that we have left the EU is accepted. The majority also recognise it has been an unmitigated disaster. There remains a Brexiteer legacy, not least within the Conservative Party and Parliament that continue "going round in your own circle jerk" as you put it, in denial. The GE in 2024 will be the first post-Brexit election and we will sweep these nut jobs out of power and back into the fringes where they belong. Only then can steps start to be taken to fix this mess. The country has moved on, soon the government will, perhaps it is time for you to wake up and smell the coffee.

It's not an unmitigated disaster. Nobody can seriously say that leaving the EU has been remotely as bad as the worst predictions of remain. We've seen growth in exports of goods and services outside of the EU; in fact, in recent figures, sales to the EU have held up better than elsewhere in spite of no longer being in the EU. That raises a big question as to whether the EU trade agreements were as important as believed. Sterling trades at about the same price it did in 2010, when we were in the EU.

And we're also at a point where all of the major strategic moves that might compensate outside the EU are in very early stages.

Edited January 26 by littleyellowbirdie

[horsefly 4,301]

8 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Where's the denial? The trade agreement we had was consequent of being members of the EU. We're no longer members of the EU. That was a decision made by the British people so it's really pointless going on about it. In the meantime, if the Canadians won't move on hormones and we won't cave on it, then that's just the way it is.

My point is that your narrow focus on trade agreements is both fallacious and also very inconsistent given the way you dismiss all discussion about anything progressing outside the EU (except focussing on any downsides).

It's fair enough for Canada to try it on on this subject, and it's fair enough for us to walk away. That's how negotiation works. Either way, hormone treated beef really isn't as important as you make out. Or at least, there's no scientific evidence that it's as important as you make out.

Good Lord! What utterly vacuous and disingenuous nonsense. This is not fundamentally an issue about hormone treated beef, it is fundamentally about how Brexit has rendered the UK a feeble nation at the negotiating table. The Canadians wouldn't even dream of raising hormone treated beef in negotiations with the EU, let alone withdrawing from negotiations on such a relatively trivial issue.

Brexit was sold to the public on a plethora of lies about improving the lives of UK citizens through making the UK a stronger more independent nation. All of those lies have proven to be false promises. We are far weaker outside of the EU than we were within it. 

You may be able to write off these abysmal failures as "just the way it is", but for thousands of businesses and the people they employ these Brexit consequences are a very personal disaster. 

[horsefly 4,301]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If there's a need for that, you should have paid more attention in the run up to the referendum. Maybe that's why you can still fail to get why people like Fen and Ricardo are still fine with us having left the EU in spite of the obvious economic downsides that they all acknowledge.

So, NO answer. Why am I not surprised. Pathetic!