The Positive Brexit Thread

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

3 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

That is a bit to arrogant for my liking.You think you are right. I think I am. And as a LAbour member at the time I am quite clear about what the Party manifesto meant. There was no pretence. Just a message from the ex Chancellor and PM that it wasn't going to be easy and the burden would have to be shared. To put it bluntly, those living in Council Houses would have to sell their brand new BMWs and and buy a Hyundai. And they might manage a holiday but not two a year for the foreseeable future. But also that the banks, money lenders and investors would have to rein it in and stop looking for easy money, which they lost and then squealed for help from the Government. Brown was initially the only World Leader who wanted to help the banks with a rescue package. Luckily he persuaded the rest of the world he was right. And of couse for those on £150K or more, they would pay 50p in the pound.

The excesses were over. You have all had a good innings. We have to regulate the financial institutions from now on and if you want a loan to buy that Hyundai, you are going to have to be able to pay it back.

The cuts the coalition made took much longer to have any influence than Brown's short sharp shock treatment.

And you conveniently forget the 2011 Alternative Vote Referendum when despite an awful turnout (shows how much people cared) nearly twice as many people voted for no change. You are trying to start a myth that the LibDems were more red than Labour. And Clegg's term as DL amply illustrated how much he had in common with Cameron.

And lets face it. Labour did no damage to the LibDems. Their number of MPs halved in 2015. 

I think its just your hated of LAbour, fair enough, I hate the Tories, that is blinding you about what really happened.

All politicians say 'we're all in it together in tough economic times', regardless of party. It's just empty rhetoric. Let's not forget we're talking about a party some of its own members were calling 'red Tories' for some time during the new Labour years.

It was always interesting in the Lib Dems that almost everybody were refugees from both Labour and the Conservatives, and there was also some tension on occasion from differences in extent of dislike of one or the other; the tribal nature of our two party system is heavily engrained.

If you want to talk about arrogance, maybe consider the extent to which really excessive rhetoric against the conservatives is the norm in here, but apparently anything vaguely approaching the vehemence towards Labour, which is thoroughly merited, seems to get so much umbrage. Personally, I blame Nye Bevan for putting political discourse on that slippery slope.

At the end of the day, the outcome of the coalition was something so similar to new Labour in character as to be hardly worth arguing about. At worst, it put off a truly conservative government for five years.

Don't misunderstand me. I don't hate the stated values of the Labour party. I just hate their hypocrisy and constant placing of party above country while pretending otherwise. The Tories may be nakedly self interested to a large extent, but at least they don't pretend otherwise.

Edit: No, I'm not trying to start a myth the Lib Dems were more red than Labour; I'm attacking the myth perpetuated by Labour that the Lib Dems are 'Yellow Tories' based on cynical misrepresentation of the facts.

Edit edit: Actually, when Charles Kennedy was leader of the Lib Dems, I think they arguably were more red than Labour under Tony Blair.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

All politicians say 'we're all in it together in tough economic times', regardless of party. It's just empty rhetoric. Let's not forget we're talking about a party some of its own members were calling 'red Tories' for some time during the new Labour years.

It was always interesting in the Lib Dems that almost everybody were refugees from both Labour and the Conservatives, and there was also some tension on occasion from differences in extent of dislike of one or the other; the tribal nature of our two party system is heavily engrained.

If you want to talk about arrogance, maybe consider the extent to which really excessive rhetoric against the conservatives is the norm in here, but apparently anything vaguely approaching the vehemence towards Labour, which is thoroughly merited, seems to get so much umbrage.

At the end of the day, the outcome of the coalition was something so similar to new Labour in character as to be hardly worth arguing about. At worst, it put off a truly conservative government for five years.

Don't misunderstand me. I don't hate the stated values of the Labour party. I just hate their hypocrisy and constant placing of party above country while pretending otherwise. The Tories may be nakedly self interested to a large extent, but at least they don't pretend otherwise.

Edit: No, I'm not trying to start a myth the Lib Dems were more red than Labour; I'm attacking the myth perpetuated by Labour that the Lib Dems are 'Yellow Tories' based on cynical misrepresentation of the facts.

 

As I said, its fair enough if you despise Labour. Its not uncommon. But on here, those of us who are interested enough seem to come from the left side of politics. My Father was a Communist so I am a Socialist. I don't despise ordinary Tory voters, just Tory politicians. I have resigned from the Labour Party because they have deserted their core in the search for elections. Fair enough. You cannot do much out of power. But if SKS were taking a penalty he would be aiming over the bar.

The Yellow Tories was completely true in 2010. Clegg then was just like Truss is now. Cameron and he were like Hinge and Bracket. Many of his own Party were disappointed with him because he chose the Tories. 

You haven't replied about the 2011 Referendum.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

As I said, its fair enough if you despise Labour. Its not uncommon. But on here, those of us who are interested enough seem to come from the left side of politics. My Father was a Communist so I am a Socialist. I don't despise ordinary Tory voters, just Tory politicians. I have resigned from the Labour Party because they have deserted their core in the search for elections. Fair enough. You cannot do much out of power. But if SKS were taking a penalty he would be aiming over the bar.

The Yellow Tories was completely true in 2010. Clegg then was just like Truss is now. Cameron and he were like Hinge and Bracket. Many of his own Party were disappointed with him because he chose the Tories. 

You haven't replied about the 2011 Referendum.

The first statement is untrue; the second is just... wow.

Many of the Lib Dems that bought into the 'stop the Tories' nonsense were upset by it and it hurt the party when they left. Personally, I think it may have set them up to be a bit more neutral in the future, with more erstwhile Conservative voters willing to entertain voting for them than was the case when they were considered a Labour satellite party.

Honestly, I think Labour has more to worry about from the Greens than the Lib Dems in terms of brand perception. The Conservatives definitely have a lot to worry about from the Lib Dems at the next election, especially in the Yellow seats that went blue in 2015; most yellow seats did go blue rather than red in 2015 because it was the more Labour aligned voters reverting to voting Labour that split the Lib Dem votes off and gave the Conservatives their own majority.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/19/the-guardian-view-on-tactical-voting-it-would-help-to-oust-tories

Edited March 27, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

33 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

You haven't replied about the 2011 Referendum.

Forgot this bit sorry. The 2011 AV referendum made the EU referendum look like the height of civil discourse. 'No' won through a combined Labour and Conservative strategy of character assassination of Nick Clegg (Cameron was reluctant, but caved to threats by the likes of Prescott to walk away from the campaign if personal attacks against Clegg weren't included) and the most disgraceful arguments claiming that children would die in hospital because of cuts to spending in maternity wards caused by the expense of electoral reform. Another great no argument was soldiers dying in action from a lack of bullet proof vests because of... extra spending on electoral reform.They also minimised publicity to  ensure low turnout.

That was when I realised that Labour and the Conservatives are co-conspirators in a stitch-up denying the electorate real choice.

Edited March 27, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,144]

21 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Forgot this bit sorry. The 2011 AV referendum made the EU referendum look like the height of civil discourse. 'No' won through a combined Labour and Conservative strategy of character assassination of Nick Clegg (Cameron was reluctant, but caved to threats by the likes of Prescott to walk away from the campaign if personal attacks against Clegg weren't included) and the most disgraceful arguments claiming that children would die in hospital because of cuts to spending in maternity wards caused by the expense of electoral reform. Another great no argument was soldiers dying in action from a lack of bullet proof vests because of... extra spending on electoral reform.They also minimised publicity to  ensure low turnout.

That was when I realised that Labour and the Conservatives are co-conspirators in a stitch-up denying the electorate real choice.

The AV election was pathetic from the outset. It's a stupid system used by, wasn't it just 2 other nations? It even had the potential to return less proportionate parliaments than FPTP.

I'm a staunch advocate of electoral reform, but AV would have stitched up the prospect of a proper democracy for a lifetime. I couldn't vote for it. It was idiotic and weak for the Lib Dems to accept it. And as we're seeing on here, people are now using that election to defend FPTP and argue against reform.

Another reason why Clegg choosing his 5 years in the spotlight with the Tories was utterly counterproductive to his two favourite policies (PR and EU).

EDIT: I accept that at the time Clegg had no idea how it would pan out, and there were some meritous democratic reasons for electing to prop up the Tories. But I thought it stunk at the time and it stinks worse in hindsight, and as far as I'm aware he's shown no contrition or regret for a decision we're all, as a nation, still paying for.

Edited March 27, 2023 by canarydan23

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

7 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

The AV election was pathetic from the outset. It's a stupid system used by, wasn't it just 2 other nations? It even had the potential to return less proportionate parliaments than FPTP.

I'm a staunch advocate of electoral reform, but AV would have stitched up the prospect of a proper democracy for a lifetime. I couldn't vote for it. It was idiotic and weak for the Lib Dems to accept it. And as we're seeing on here, people are now using that election to defend FPTP and argue against reform.

Another reason why Clegg choosing his 5 years in the spotlight with the Tories was utterly counterproductive to his two favourite policies (PR and EU)

Clegg himself described it as a 'miserable little compromise'. Fundamentally, I don't think the Lib Dems appreciated how strong their position was.

That said, it does mean that people can put their first choice preference without fear of a spoiler effect, unlike our system where people are deterred from choosing smaller parties for fear of letting their least preferred of the two main parties in. That makes it heaps better than first past the post in my view, even if it is way short of MMP or STV.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[canarydan23 4,144]

46 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Clegg himself described it as a 'miserable little compromise'. Fundamentally, I don't think the Lib Dems appreciated how strong their position was.

That said, it does mean that people can put their first choice preference without fear of a spoiler effect, unlike our system where people are deterred from choosing smaller parties for fear of letting their least preferred of the two main parties in. That makes it heaps better than first past the post in my view, even if it is way short of MMP or STV.

 

PR list is my dream.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

7 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

PR list is my dream.

Not my first choice, but I'd take it over what we have.

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

26 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

PR list is my dream.

Agreed -- In last week’s provincial elections, Party-list proportional representation has seen Farmer-Citizen Movement (BBB) secure a projected 17 seats in the Dutch senate 

They're currently the largest party in the country despite being outspent in media advertising by ten other parties 👍

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

Anyone posted the following good Brexit news? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/24/british-fishermen-net-100m-year-thanks-brexit/

Apologies if it's previously been mentioned.

[TheGunnShow 6,106]

57 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

PR list is my dream.

That's the compromise position for me. Full Swiss is what I'd really like, personally.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Forgot this bit sorry. The 2011 AV referendum made the EU referendum look like the height of civil discourse. 'No' won through a combined Labour and Conservative strategy of character assassination of Nick Clegg (Cameron was reluctant, but caved to threats by the likes of Prescott to walk away from the campaign if personal attacks against Clegg weren't included) and the most disgraceful arguments claiming that children would die in hospital because of cuts to spending in maternity wards caused by the expense of electoral reform. Another great no argument was soldiers dying in action from a lack of bullet proof vests because of... extra spending on electoral reform.They also minimised publicity to  ensure low turnout.

That was when I realised that Labour and the Conservatives are co-conspirators in a stitch-up denying the electorate real choice.

I guess you like Clegg. To me, he was weak. I don't believe he was a good leader. He couldn't handle the sort of politics that is sometimes needed. The fact he caved on Student Fees showed he didn't have the ability. And that was evident when he walked away.

[Yellow Fever 3,852]

30 minutes ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

Anyone posted the following good Brexit news? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/24/british-fishermen-net-100m-year-thanks-brexit/

Apologies if it's previously been mentioned.

We'll let you Brexiteers squabble amongst yourselves trying to make a silk purse out a sow's ear. This is in the Express 25th March 2023 so it must be true.....

Boris Johnson accused of 'stabbing UK fishermen in back' with industry 'on last legs' | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

34 minutes ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

Anyone posted the following good Brexit news? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/24/british-fishermen-net-100m-year-thanks-brexit/

Apologies if it's previously been mentioned.

You mean the dwindling industry that employs less than 10K and has a worth of 0.03% to the UK economy. Why do you pick on an area that has become the Albert RN of Brexit.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

3 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

I guess you like Clegg. To me, he was weak. I don't believe he was a good leader. He couldn't handle the sort of politics that is sometimes needed. The fact he caved on Student Fees showed he didn't have the ability. And that was evident when he walked away.

New Labour set the trend of stage-managed politics focusing on presentation over substance. Both Cameron and Clegg got the jobs because they projected the right image; substance wasn't what it was about.

Again with the student fees... again I'll point out that there were three Labour victories where they had majorities, including two manifestos where commitments to students proved to be flat out lies. At least Clegg had the humility to apologise, which is more than Labour ever did for its betrayals.

[canarydan23 4,144]

1 hour ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

Anyone posted the following good Brexit news? https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/03/24/british-fishermen-net-100m-year-thanks-brexit/

Apologies if it's previously been mentioned.

Did that clutch get you any straws?!

I lost a twenty pound note the other day. In searching for it, I found a penny. I wasn't happy.

Edited March 27, 2023 by canarydan23

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

7 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

You mean the dwindling industry that employs less than 10K and has a worth of 0.03% to the UK economy. Why do you pick on an area that has become the Albert RN of Brexit.

On the bright side, much as fish was an unimportant gambit for accession to the EU, the concessions on livestock to Australia and New Zealand happen to coincide perfectly with the need to scrap livestock farming in the UK to cram more people into the UK without damaging biodervisity too much more. Maybe the government was just thinking about the environment when it made those agreements with NZ and Aus.  😉

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

4 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

You mean the dwindling industry that employs less than 10K and has a worth of 0.03% to the UK economy. Why do you pick on an area that has become the Albert RN of Brexit.

Beef is about £16/kg. Megrim sole is about £10/kg. I'm genuinely surprised people aren't exploring the possibilities with fish given the cost of living crisis. It's much healthier as well. Plus you can fit in more immigrants with less beef consumption.

It would also be good for reducing overfishing of the more popular varieties of fish to explore the other options.

 

[Herman 9,865]

8 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

You mean the dwindling industry that employs less than 10K and has a worth of 0.03% to the UK economy. Why do you pick on an area that has become the Albert RN of Brexit.

For starters these are really good programs and worth listening to. Secondly what I took from it is that British fisherman still haven't learned about sustainability. Plunder the sea, feed the Chinese, make as much money as quickly as possible and sod the future generations.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00016dl

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

2 hours ago, Herman said:

For starters these are really good programs and worth listening to. Secondly what I took from it is that British fisherman still haven't learned about sustainability. Plunder the sea, feed the Chinese, make as much money as quickly as possible and sod the future generations.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00016dl

I'm slightly surprised you've not taken an opportunity to fairly blame the government for a blatant oversight in regulation here in favour of blaming fishermen for trying to make a living in an environment where living costs have been driven up by middle class second home owners pricing locals out of the market.

I suppose we've discovered a group more loathed than politicians: It's fishermen, apparently.

[Herman 9,865]

You could try listening to the program. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

You could try listening to the program. 

I did. Start to finish. Now listening to Rannoch.

The main point at the end is demand from China for the crabs is insatiable and is forever driving up prices. That's a regulation problem.

Edited March 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,865]

Fishermen, like Conservatives, **** it all up and then spend all their efforts blaming everyone else. Zero sympathy for them. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

5 minutes ago, Herman said:

Fishermen, like Conservatives, **** it all up and then spend all their efforts blaming everyone else. Zero sympathy for them. 

Wow. Way to go for beating up on working class people trying to make a living in a competitive market place. Proper New Labour values at play.

So much for punching up rather than down.

Edited March 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,865]

And just to add, they don't like regulations. That is why they made us leave the EU. The problem is only going to get worse. Although filling the rivers and seas with sewage may not help. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

And just to add, they don't like regulations. That is why they made us leave the EU. The problem is only going to get worse. Although filling the rivers and seas with sewage may not help. 

Nobody in business likes regulations that get in the way of them making money. Nobody's supposed to like them; they're supposed to obey them or face punishment. It seems extraordinary to aim so much hatred at such a small group, let alone when you presume that everybody in that group did vote the way you think without actually knowing.

11,000 British citizens work on British fishing vessels; the difference between those voting yes and no was 1.2million. Your hatred seems disproportionate, to say the least.

 

[dj11 378]

I go fishing once a month off Littlehampton, and in fact went out yesterday. Our skipper, who I have known for over 20 years is ex commercial, and his views are very interesting. He freely admits that when you are hauling in the nets or emptying the pots, you only think about today, and that is common amongst their community. He actually agrees with quotas and regulations, because without them, there would be very little left. We have seen a massive increase in Bass stocks, due to limits on numbers, the herring are back in massive numbers and the codling are back along the south and east coast. The main greed, and therefore danger to the fishing industry, are the few families and corporations that own most of the licences and quotas, and these are not your working class people. This link gives an insight into the fishing industry. 
https://www.greenpeace.org.uk/news/uncovered-rich-list-codfathers-dominating-uks-fishing-industry/

[Herman 9,865]

It's more frustration than hatred birdie, but you carry on. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,614]

2 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's more frustration than hatred birdie, but you carry on. 

I understand.

[sonyc 5,541]

49 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I understand.

I hope so LYB. A lot of what you may think of lefties or folk attacking the Tories (that you find so annoying because it somehow excuses Labour) is borne out of frustration. These threads support people to vent their frustration. Sometimes it might be "wrong" in terms of complete accuracy or it is funny or very very relevant and biting. The one thing that unites us all, I'm convinced, is that we know stuff / life / politics isn't quite the way it ought to be. And for many, the trajectory is the wrong way and running away from us at quite a pace (thinking of the moat recent years). We all want something better. So it's okay to be angry with lots of things we read. I believe most folk are sensible enough too not to totally believe everything they read. Or what is posted.

When we realise folk post from their own sense of frustration it is very easy for us (me anyway) to feel empathy with all. Don't always agree with things said or views expressed but at least one can understand the wish that things were a bit different.

 

Edited March 28, 2023 by sonyc