Badger

I just don't know Suf - I haven't seen or heard of any such commitment but would be happy to be wrong.

Yes exactly Norfolk, lots of unanswered questions. If he's committed to writing off the debt, surely he would say so?

I hope that you are right, Shef, but will we know before we vote? Most of the US shareholders charge interest on their loans, and seek their capital back after they end their involvement- which is not unreasonable really. However, either as scenario could see us in great difficulty. It is not unreasonable to assume that MA is looking to profit, which is quite understandable, ATM however, we are not sure if he's taking any risks at all, merely on a one-way bet - heads he wins big time, tails he makes a decent profit.

Frustratingly I'm not certain when I first went as my Dad took me when I was very young, but think it was around 1967-8. I saw Hugh Curran play several times and he left in 1969, and I remember being very upset when we sold him - I couldn't understand why as he was one of our best players - I remember dad trying to explain to me. A brutal introduction into being a City fan! BTW, I made sure that my daughter will always know her first game - photos before + programme etc.😁

1. We should have built (a new stand) when interest rates were low, but I wouldn't recommend it atm. We have invested heavily in training facilities which will be amongst the best for clubs our size. 2. All clubs sell their best players with possible (debateable) exceptions at the very top level. It is a fundamental part of modern football. 3. Keeping debt low is good as it means you can spend more money on football and less on interest. 4. We have been one of the most successful clubs of our size in the last 20 years. 5. I would be very happy to have a benefactor who gives us money, but the evidence we have so far suggests that MA is not that person. I hope he proves me wrong, as I suspect that he will get what he wants.

On the evidence so far, the MA engagement would be a continuation of the self-funding model. He has not "gifted us" any money and indeed has bought shares at below the market rate when he could have injected new equity by buying at fair market rates. What he has done is lent us money at a commercial rate.* Borrowing money has always been part of self-funding - and D and M have done it many times (too often imo), and I don't see how MA is any different - except in what we hope it might become (but without evidence to support the hopes). *albeit at lower end of?

This is exactly my fear.

I'm sorry CW, but this is misinformed. Without parachute payments we would still have one of the higher turnovers in the EFL - we would not "be stuffed" but have every chance of being a promotion contender if we built and bought well and kept debt levels down. I think that you are a bit outdated in your view of football finances - the time when someone could come in and gift a hundred million or so and get a team established in the EPL is long gone - as many EFL billionaires can attest to. The big question which many of us have to resolve before voting is to whether MA is the "least devilish" investor we could find - if he had the best of intentions, why is so much of the money he has "invested" in interest bearing loans - I would have been far more convinced if the he had injected cash through new equity rather than loaned us the money. It is taking on heavy debt that is the quickest route to "being stuffed," as our natural advantages in terms of revenue would get swallowed up in debt repayments.

It's the vote of confidence thing that has me worried. Unless there are legal assurances that he will set at purchase price (minus costs) Attanasio stands to make a great deal of money if he walks away. As a general rule when things don't look right and the salesman says "just trust me," my defence mechanisms are alerted. As far as I can see, Attansio has a one-way bet without any real financial commitment. I don't like to be suspicious of people, but I can't see how I would accept a deal on a similar basis in my own life.

BYG posted this on Twitter. For those of us, who place some value on football statistics, I think it makes interesting reading and shows how well we have started both offensively and defensively, although still not quite as tight as early season Smith.

If I understand you correctly, we are being asked to put a lot of faith in Attanasio's good will. He may have pumped £50 million into the club, but as far as we know the vast majority of this is as a loan at a commercial rate of interest, albeit at the lower end of the scale. Being dispassionate, the loan could be seen as leverage to get equity at a very cheap price. You suggest that he has (will have) attained his 40% for £8 million, which values the club at only £20 million which is a bargain basement valuation. If at the end of his "trial period" he feels City are not for him, he could almost certainly make a very healthy profit on his equity even if we were in the championship and if were in the premier league, he might see a gain of 8 or 9 times his original investment in equity + still demand repayment of the loan. It is an extremely low risk gamble for him! I'm sure that there are "assurances" in place but don't know whether they would be legally enforceable, so it does seem to me that we are basically being asked to "just trust me, I'm a good guy." I'm not saying he isn't, but in my personal life, I wouldn't enter into such a deal with someone I've only known for a couple of years.

Presumably not specifying the amount. I think that may be the bit in the podcast about preferential interest rates. Looking at last year's accounts + anticipated revenues, including player sales, I suspect that this was just short term finance for cash flow. Does the documentation give any indication as to whether the 40% includes conversion of the preference shares?

I don't have any of the details available Jim, so could be wrong, but I thought he only lent £10 million, which is not really a problem as far as I can see. Is this £10 million part of the deal (ie preference shares converted to ordinary shares) which would mean he has paid more than the £6 million, I thought that the podcast suggested?

I am most certainly not a conspiracy theorist but as I understand it, we are being asked to put a very great deal of trust in Attanasio's good faith. Based mostly on the Pink In podcast, which I thought was good in the time available, it seems that he has bought a 40% stake in the club for very little. The new equity issued has raised only a small amount as far as I can tell, and seems to value the club very cheaply? I haven't seen any of the documents but I feel a little concerned ATM - perhaps without justification. Am I missing something?

Thanks - good stuff. The Rotherham figures suggest we were not as bad as suggested.

Gt Yarmouth as a town is unfairly denigrated. It is packed with history and historical buildings + some of the housing stock is of the highest quality. It is going through some difficult times atm, for obvious economic reasons but with the trend towards remote working etc, I suspect that it has a bright future. If I were thirty years younger, I'd be looking at one of those 3 story Victorian town houses where the gentry used to stay in the summer (as you would know if you read your Trollope 😉).

He's on a one year contract with an option. Young players need experienced pros to act as mentors and to learn from if they are to develop their potential. Given how highly we are supposed to rate some of our youthful centre backs this is exactly what they need to get them ready for first team football - although a loan might be better?

Some of the posters seem very disappointed without him even kicking ball. To get amore informed opinion, I went to the Sunderland fans forum. Almost universally well-regarded, a real defender and great leader seems to be the feeling. Some suggest that his absence was why they did not get promoted from the play offs. It won't please the moaners reunited crew who have been strangely quiet all season (until yesterday) but seems like he is exactly the type of player we have been targeting this system to bring steel and nous to the team and to help our young talent develop. Wages are probably quite high but seems like very shrewd business imo. A massive player for us. Thanks Danny, and good luck at Norwich. Baath is a big loss...Great player..Great leader...Great captain... He was our most experienced, most robust, most competent centre half. He could head, read it, organise and do the basics. A leader on the park as well. He was in no way detrimental to the football we were trying to play contrary to what revisionists would have you believe now that he’s gone either. Great for us, hard as nails and a great leader. Very good player for us. An old fashioned centre half... A proper warrior, think we’d be in the premier league now if he’d been fit vs Luton. This was a mistake, imo. We'll regret this one; not all that arsed about the other outgoings. One of them when you saw him on the team sheet you knew he was more than likely going to give a 7 or 8 out of 10 performance. Not scared to put his body on the line. Big gamble allowing such an experienced player to leave the club. We don’t have many leaders in the club and I think that’s a little naive. Experienced pros like Batth are Hugely important to help our young players develop and that in-game leadership and mentoring is missing at the moment. He’s in his prime and we have pushed him out on a free. Shocking business for safc other than them clearing his wage. A solid, consistent centre back who was a big part of the last season and a half. It always feels wrong when a player of the year goes tge bext season. The club have reduced the wage bill by £24k per wk .That was the reason.I think we should have kept him Should never have been allowed to Leave. Astonishing decision Loved him, brought experience, a level head and leadership on the pitch https://www.readytogo.net/smb/threads/danny-batth-appreciation.1614786/page-3

How can he when we are near the top of the table? If things continue to go well we won't hear much from DCB but any hint of difficulty he will be all over this board like a rash!

Derrrr! All they've got to do is find an owner that gifts the club tens of millions of pounds every year - how hard can it be?

TBF, it is not definite that DCB is an Ipswich fan: he could just be incredibly stupid? Of course, it possible that he is both!

1. Nobody who wants to sell assets would be stupid enough to state publicly that we are in desperate need of cash, with perhaps the exception of one or two posters on this forum! 2. With regards being a "lie," it is a bit more nuanced than that - "spin" might be closer. It is probable that we didn't need to sell this window (i.e. we have sufficient cash for now) so not actually a lie. However, if we had not sold, and fail to get promoted we would almost certainly have needed to sell at the end of the season and pretty quickly. The early sales give us a bit more comfort and flexibility, but I don't think there is a huge pot to be used in January. 3. The early sales and freed up cash might give us more flexibility over contract renewals - Sargent and Rowe would be very high up my list.

1. Given the way that the manager wants to play football, I think that we stronger in every department, except reserve keeper, at the end of the window than we were at the start. 2. We also seemed to have added a lot of steel, guile and experience to help the younger players develop. 3. Facing the end of parachute payments at the end of the season, we also seem to have strengthened the balance sheet after spending too much in our last premier league season. On the negative side, I feel that we are a bit "over-stocked" in some areas - e..g. when Hanley returns we will have six Centre backs in the first team squad.

I hate to have to break it to you but this sometimes happens in sales negotiations - the seller says that there is a lot of interest and that s/hr has already turned down god offers. My strong advice is to remember this next time you buy a house/ car etc - don't always accept what the sales staff tell you.

With some, Deann Coney's Boots leaps to mind, this is the key factor.