Assume We're Promoted - Then What & When?

[YankeeCanary 0]

I have been fairly clear in my opinion that, given the squad we have, we were going to have a slow start at best. I''ve also shared on an earlier post why history is strongly on the side of a mid-table finish this season. However, while some may view this thought as "jumping the gun" a bit, let''s assume we are able to achieve promotion this season, even if we have one almighty struggle to achieve it. We know what we experienced last season in the Premiership; eight points out of a potential 42 in the first 14 games, and the 15th match before we had a win. We know if we gain promotion this season we do not want to have such a terrible start again at the top level. Therefore, versus what we have now, what key actions would we need to take in strengthening the squad ( or even management and coaching ) to the required level and when would we take such action? Of course, I realise the easy answer is "let''s get through this season and see where we are", but for those who are not mentally challenged to think beyond that, I would appreciate hearing your thoughts. We know that during the past our club would not rank as a leader in displaying an aggressive approach in acquiring strong talent with future potential ( Dean Ashton excepted ). The thought of a similar ponderous approach come June and July of next year as we contemplate our next lifeline in the Premiership leaves one with much apprehension. If you were in charge at Carrow Road what would you be doing ( and when ) to avoid such apprehension, and would any of your actions take place now, before the of August, before the end of January etc., such that those actions would not only enhance our ability for a better start in the Premiership but would also improve our chances of getting there. Here are my thoughts:

- I would sit down with Nigel right now and put his job on the line for two immediate improvements. By the end of August 1) a new coaching staff is put in place with a clear mandate to teach this squad how to execute the required fundamentals on match day and 2) a strong quality centre back is recruited as captain. I would explain to Nigel he has had ample time to deal with both of these issues ( therefore he must have a ready solution at hand ) and his continuity as manager is dependent on solving them by the end of August, and that he must believe in the action he takes such that it delivers the required results by the end of the year or Nigel forfeits his position anyway.

- I would also tell Nigel that, by the end of October, I want a short list of quality creative midfielders that would cost between 2 to 3 million pounds, with a view to making such an acquisition in January if we are in the promotion hunt. By the end of October it should already start to be clear which potential targets at premiership clubs are not getting playing time, do not hold the strongest contractual positions, and are open to  future opportunities.

Other thoughts?

[smooth 114]

yankee i think you are right there would be many issues

my idea would have been... get players THIS summer that are capable of moving up to the prem. to be honest none of the summer signings are... hence a backward step

genuine prem. stars in our squad... ashton, hux and greeno

older players will leave next summer... hence again it would be a busy summer... buy the best championship players

change our terrible tactics to that of a prem. team... playing up the field, pressurising for the whole 90 mins. and sort out our defensive frailities... cause there are still so many

[Saint Canary 0]

There have been similar questions to this in the past and for me it has always been quite apparent that are a limited amount of options available to help become an established Premiership club.  I will approach them bearing in mind the question.

I would let Worthy know that some coaching and tactical improvements need to be made.  I would also point out that his substitutions are bizarre at best, why bring Thorne on and take the player most likely to provide him with chances off? 

I would also have to point out that a higher value has to be placed on talent and not just on work ethic.  I doubt George Best was much cop in training but I would put him in any team come 3 on a Saturday!

We need to be building for the future, it’s our best chance of continued success.  I would suggest that Worthy should take the same approach that we did in the 80’s. Try and buy players from bigger clubs reserves as well as  scouring the lower leagues and abroad for talent.  Colin is a good example of the sort of player we should be bringing in and has so much more to offer than the likes of Louis-Jean.  In simple Colin Vs Louis-Jean contest the only plus point LJ has over Colin is that he has played a lot of football at this level.  As valuable as that experience can be at the end of the day LJ is merely a stop-gap who does not appear to have the quality to step up to the Premier League.  I’m sorry but the same goes for Hughes and Thorne as well.  More players like Colin need to be brought now or January. 

Finally, the development of Academy players has got to get better.  Players like Ryan Jarvis have at some point got to be given the chance to prove themselves and gain experience.  Anyone with eyes can see he has bags of talent, when will he be given a chance? 

[ZLF 274]

[quote]I have been fairly clear in my opinion that, given the squad we have, we were going to have a slow start at best. I''ve also shared on an earlier post why history is strongly on the side of a mid-table...[/quote]

If we were to get promoted next summer then the current issues will be magnified in the prem.  The key targets would be

1.   Coaching staff who can instil organisation  

2.    Partner for shacks in defence

3.    Midfield overhaul - sign a right midfielder, dynamic partner for safri, left midfielder

4.    Find a formation that fits hux and deano in a team and combining well without exposing defence

Items 1 & 4 can be acheived duringthis season and should really have been address this summer.

However signing a prem quality player will not happen until we are promoted again. Players with experience but a few years left in them are not going to drop down a league and the likes of jagielka and sidwell will not be attracted to norwich until they are in the top flight.   Signing an unknown quantity (like Wes Morgan for example) on a £1m+ fee is too risky this season as there is no guarantee they are good enough for the champs let alone the prem or actually be any better than current squad; 

With a talented but still novicey shacks some experience is essential in defence and a keane like partner for safri to drive the midfield on is key.

As such I would love to see us buy a central midfielder this year as we are low on numbers but would rather save our cash and probably spend more trying to secure some prem experience for shacks to learn from next year.

OTBC       

[Danny Gwww.rudeboyz.co.uk 0]

Imo i am glad that you are not charge (Yankee) , Putting NW job on the line to make decisions that may only happen in the future ( say next 10 months ) , NW is the manager of this football club and its up to him who he will bring in and who goes . If the board dont like the way he runs his football club i am sure that they would of got rid of him already . NW must be one of our most successful managers in the last 30 odd years and some of the signing he was pulled out some managers could only ever dream about it . The team we have now should be capable of getting us out of the championship , If we go up then its back to the drawing board .

[ZLF 274]

[quote]yankee i think you are right there would be many issues my idea would have been... get players THIS summer that are capable of moving up to the prem. to be honest none of the summer signings are... h...[/quote]

Oooh - you cant say there are defensive failties - thats blasphemous that is; and any reasonably intelligent football fan can see that! 

OTBC

 

 

[Barry Brockes 147]

Are we getting value for money from the vast expense that is the academy. It''s been going for several years now and who, presently in the first team, came through that route? Would we not be better off scrapping that white elephant and using the cash saved to buy proven players? This would also have the benefit of freeing up Dave Williams who coaches some of the youngsters into coaching the first team where, based on what I saw last year and have to say what I have seen so far this year, there is a huge need for coaching in basic footballing skills. 

[Andrew Polley<IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Andy P.<BR> 0]

Overall, this thread is offering some intelligent debate and many of the points raised have been in my thinking too. Therefore I have little more to add to what has already been said.

However, a constructive summary of the issues raised should, in my opinion, be put forward to The Club''s Board to answer. Pehaps the next Club Forum would be opportune? Any other suggestions?

[Saint Canary 0]

[quote]Are we getting value for money from the vast expense that is the academy. It''s been going for several years now and who, presently in the first team, came through that route? Would we not be better of...[/quote]

Did Shackell not come through the academy?  The academy has much more milage in terms of future success than trying to buy quality.

If you can produce a Dean Ashton, there is not need to spend £3-4m on him.

[Putney Canary 0]

A lot of points to respond to! I won''t disagree re the coaching angle, but will make the point that we will find it tough to find players who will be Premiership standard whilst in the Fizzy league. I''m sure Worthy has a target list of such players already though (CMs and CBs), and if we can get the right players at the right price we will get them in (now or Jan). Why do you think he doesn''t have such a list?

Re the academy - yes it is value for money. Greeno and Shacks are first team regulars, and Jarvis/Hendo/Lewis are all England youth players, and have squad numbers. We also have promising youngsters in Eagle, Cave Brown and Rossi Jarvis. What more do you expect? Yes I would like to see more of our young players given a chance, with our current squad size I''m sure they will. I would love to see Jarvis start in place of Leon... but I think I am in a minority there!

Worthy has not been as slow about getting in young talent as you suggest, Bentley last year, Ashton, now Colin and Marney, we can''t fill the squad with kids you know...

Yes we had a slow start last season, but remember the fixture list. We had a very tough start and managed to pick up some good draws. We were out of the bottom 3 just before Christmas. I think Worthy did a good job pulling together a Premiership squad, plenty of international experience, top flight experience and european experience. So what did relegate us?

- bad run of injuries (bad luck, strength in depth)

- not finding our best starting 11 early enough (tactics, but injuries didn''t help)

- not being able to accommodate Hucks without losing Midfield shape (tactics)

- defensive issues (tactics and personnel)

[LinkNR9 0]

If we''re promoted, Worthy will give Flem another two years on his contract, sign a very ordinary midfielder - "with a great work ethic" - for an inflated price, and sign a decent striker who he will then play out of position on the wing!

[Flick Fleck 0]

[quote]I have been fairly clear in my opinion that, given the squad we have, we were going to have a slow start at best. I''ve also shared on an earlier post why history is strongly on the side of a mid-table...[/quote]

Nice post / thread...

 

Yankee:  Do you manage people in your own job?  Your suggestion of a one-month (nay! 2 weeks) ultimatum to NW or lose his job seems a bit over the top to say the least.  Hardly the way for the board to treat a top-performing, loyal and committed senior employee.  Not the best confidence-inspirer, no?

 

Zipper: It''s always a pleasure to read your incisive strategic thought about how this club and the team is run.  Thank-you very much.

 

Just to add another thought to the topic:  I reckon that the Board is sitting happy in the knowledge that just about everything is going according to plan right now. 

 

Quite a bit more cash in the bank and paying off the loans; quite a healthy financial position all in all really (compared to the mess that they inherited); favourites to go straight back up in a division that lacks any other obvious stand-out competition; stronger squad than when we won Div 1 (you may argue, but I stand by this); more experienced management and coaching staff; brand new posh stand; lots of good press; nice restaurant (!).

 

''Prudence with ambition'' they tell us.  Trying ''to do a Charlton'' (or dare I say, a West Brom?).

 

All signs looking good so far to me.

 

[YankeeCanary 0]

Hi Flick Fleck. No, I no longer manage people because I am long since retired. I can''t even "manage" my wife, although she seems to do a pretty good job of managing me. With respect to my pressure on Nigel being over the top, it is if you consider the starting point as now. I don''t. Action should have been taken on the central defensive position sixteen months ago, and we might have had a shot at not looking like deer frozen in the headlights. Same thing with respect to the improvement required in coaching the fundamentals for any team that aspires to a higher level. My timelines for Nigel were based on inaction in those fundamental areas, and we should never have reached this point with the status quo. If the issues that I ( and many others ) identify are still with us and costing us big time as the next few months unfold, at what point would you consider action, and what action would you take? I, like many others have no doubt that Nigel is a very nice man, is loyal and committed. However, he more than most of us knows he is a manager of a professional sports team and, if we wish for Norwich to be a regular ongoing member of the Premiership, then the measurement of our manager against top-performer status must be what actions he takes to get us to the top level and keep us there. If we lower that bar because we want to be nice or "inspire confidence" then don''t expect the results to be forthcoming because it will be a false expectation.

[Flick Fleck 0]

[quote]Hi Flick Fleck. No, I no longer manage people because I am long since retired. I can''t even "manage" my wife, although she seems to do a pretty good job of managing me. With respect to my pressure on ...[/quote]

Yankee: It would be a sorry state of affairs if you were managing your wife but she were unable to manage you!

 

As for City, I am a man of Faith when it comes to the old Yeller n Green.  I Believe in Worthy!  And Hell yes, I even believe in Flem at this level.  Let the old war horse blunder his way through a final last season, then do a Iwan and go off to Gillingham, or something.  Meawhile, we will be up again, and be buying some new class act defender to partner Shacks. Amen!

 

I have no doubt that we will finish in at least the play-offs this year.  If we do not, then that would be the time to ask whether we should still be with Worthy or not.  If we failed in the play-offs, then we could ask the same question.  But not now (in August).

 

If we went up then we would be in an altogether different pickle.  Do we keep Worthy?  Is he good enough to keep us up at a second attempt?  Or do we get ruthless, and bring in someone else?

 

But that, too, is still a far off question.  If Worthy can''t get us to even the play-offs, then start calling for his head.  For now, enjoy the summer, watch the results get better, see our front line start bagging the goals, and we''ll take a rain check on Worthy''s future...

[YankeeCanary 0]

Fair enough Flick Fleck. I understand why you have your opinion but we will have to just disagree. Last August ( and even prior to that ) when some were calling for Worthy''s head I strongly disagreed with that, believing Nigel would learn from our shortcomings and take the required actions. More than a year has gone by without the issues that concern me being addressed. Now, the stakes have been raised because, if we should have a mediocre season this time, then we will undoubtedly find it extremely difficult to hang on to people like Ashton and Green etc., taking us even further away from the progress we all seek. Incidentally, my thoughts are not overly influenced by what happens in the short term such as whether we win or lose against Palace today, or next week. It''s what actions are being taken to move us forward over longer time periods. Your previous post suggests you are happier with the progress we are making and you cited the improvements. I agree we have made progress in some areas but we risk a backward step if we are too cautious.

[Flick Fleck 0]

[quote]Fair enough Flick Fleck. I understand why you have your opinion but we will have to just disagree. Last August ( and even prior to that ) when some were calling for Worthy''s head I strongly disagreed ...[/quote]

Good stuff this.  Yes I am happy with the improvements (and even happier now that Deano has put us one-nil up!), and I think the right way to measure where we are at is to compare NCFC August 2005 with NCFC August 2003, when we were embarking on our promotion season.  There is clearly a world of improvement since then - in terms of the squad, and the whole club.  (and us fans, too.  If you think we are moaning cynics now, try and remember how you felt then!).

 

The crux is on our promotion - or not - this year.

 

YC: the issue that concerns you seems to be central defence and a lack of ambition from Worthy to get in a new partner for Shacks.  The simple answer is that Worthy reckons that Flem can still do a job there in Div 1.  He''s probably right, too, you know.

 

And don''t worry about a mediocre season.  Play-offs are the minimum expectation.  If it isn''t looking achievable by Christmas, then the Board should push out the boat again and do another Hucks / Ashton masterstroke.

 

Sit back and enjoy the ride.  We are actually pretty good!

[YankeeCanary 0]

With respect to your reply Flick Fleck, you state my main issue seems to be Worth''y failure to bring in a strong central defender. This is one of the key issues that I identified, and don''t overlook that I think we need to bring in someone who is tough, quality and a fresh captain in this role. I honestly think we need a fresh shake-up in that regard. However, the reason I reply again is please do not overlook what I said regarding the need for an overhaul of our coaching staff. I''ve said it before and undoubtedly will many times again. Even in our championship year, certainly last season and it''s now appearing to be the case this season, we need to be better organised in the way we go about executing on the pitch. This is a key and immediate issue that needs addressing. 

[FatMan Fat 0]

I am mentally challenged so I will agree with your post, YC.

Worthington does need to be made aware that the Club needs to move forward in terms of greater skill and tactical awareness - coaching - and a replacement has never been found for Malkay.

If Worthington cannot provide these things then he should be replaced.  No matter what many posters believe ther are other managers out there who have the experience and qualities to take us to the next level if it proves beyond Worthington.

[0ridgemanddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

One of the best posts for sometime because it is plain to see tactics and organisation in our team are sadly lacking. The coaching is poor. How far have we moved forward in the last year 1-0 up against Palace only to lose the lead again not much learnt. Fleming may keep his place this year but it will cost us today out of position more than once and shouting at everyone when he makes a mistake. Spot on Yankee - and you dont need to be a manager to see where our deficiencies are. Worthington cant see Huckerbys best position is not on the left wing. 

[Tom Blazak<P><IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Tom Blazak<P><P>Ronaldinho - The Huckerby Of The Nou Camp<P> 0]

to suggest the scrapping of the academy is ridiculous - where do you think green came from? that wouldnt be the academy would it? oh yes wait a min - it would....same as shackell......same as bellamy did.....same as eadie did.....some of the best players to grace a norwich shirt in the last 10years have come thru the academy! and with ryan jarvis coming thru - youd hope he''ll play some more football this season - along with henderson too, and rossi jarvis on his way up -  think before you speak!

[Tom Blazak<P><IMG src="http:new.pinkun.comforumsimagesline.gif"><BR>Tom Blazak<P><P>Ronaldinho - The Huckerby Of The Nou Camp<P> 0]

i also beg to differ on the hucks best position note - he hasnt got the cutting edge to make it as an out and out striker as his finishing simply isnt good enough....we played him as a striker in our championship season and he was alot more comfortable and caused alot more havoc when we moved him and he was given that floating role on the left wing....