Safestanding Survey

[Thomo 0]

Please give us your view on safestanding at Football by taking just 1-2 minutes to complete the Barclay End Projekt''s survey.We want to take this to the club, but first we want to have figures about OUR fans, and how WE as a majority fan base feel about it.For those of you unfamiliar with safestanding, we are not calling for a return of the 80''s terracing, we want the Rail Seats that are commonly used in Germany. A rail seat is a high backed seat with an attached railing which is at waist height for the person behind, meaning that crowd surges from the old days stay in the past, and we also eliminate the shin high (and lower at some grounds) trip hazards from the seats in front.The seats are locked into an upright position, unless the game warrants an all seated approach, e.g Champions League or Internationals (doesn''t affect us greatly at present obviously)Rail seating will allow people to have the CHOICE to stand in an area designated for doing just that. No more Stewards telling people to sit down, no more arguments between fellow fans about people standing in front of someone who wishes to sit.We would want an area of the ground around 10% to be converted (most likely to be the lower Barclay) to allow for standing in a designated area which would help generate more atmosphere and an increased capacity, without grand scale ground development work, meaning 5200 standing fans in the current 3000 seated area (The Safety regulations known as the Green Guide states that for every 10 seated fans clubs could allow 17-18 standing spaces).Its not just about atmosphere, The club could potentially lower admission prices and still make a profit. (ticket prices assumed as an average £30, with a 33% reduction with standing)3000 x £30 = £90,0005200 x £20 = £104, 000We believe the installation of the standing for this area to cost around £250-300k, to put that in perspective we shelled out the same sum for the goal line technology in the summer, something we''ll never make a return on.So with a profit of £14k per match over 19 games of a premier league season.....it will be all but paid for!Lord Justice Taylor reported that fans would get used to sitting at football, a quarter of a century later, we''re still standing in our thousands every week, all over the country. Why not let us do that, within ground regulations and MOST IMPORTANTLY, SAFELY!CheersThomo (Barclay End Projekt)Please complete our survey here......  http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/GHW98HB

[JF 694]

Will fill this out in a while but wanted to say what a great case you put forward for it and it seems it can only benefit the club and give a lot of fans what they wish for.

[JF 694]

Also maybe Edp could run a online poll to gauge opinion of this?

[Thomo 0]

thanks JF

[Thomo 0]

A couple of our members visited Chloe Smith MP at Westminister a few months back, the EDP ran a poll then. It was 75% (ish) in favour at the time.http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/would_you_like_to_see_safe_standing_areas_introduced_at_carrow_road_1_2954854We''ve also been involved with The Football Supporters Federation and Safestanding roadshow and one of our members has been over to Dortmund twice in the last 4-5 months to experience their standing areas first hand.

[Thomo 0]

Here is the debate from Talksport recorded last night, please give it a listen....http://talksport.com/radio/listen-again/1388430000

[JF 694]

May be worth putting your post on the not606 site as well.

[lappinitup 629]

Question. When you buy your ticket for the standing area, would you be designated a spot or would it be a free for all?

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="lappinitup"]Question. When you buy your ticket for the standing area, would you be designated a spot or would it be a free for all?[/quote] I should have said "free to roam".

[Bill 1,788]

I might help your cause if you were a bit more accurateThe financial side you put up is totally flawed. There IS NOT an endless supply of fans that you can simply turn on like a tap. Reducing the prices would simply cause fans to migrate from other more expensive parts of the ground. It would also have a downward effect on the price of season tickets elsewhere, with fans simply opting to buy a casual ticket for the ''big'' games rather than lumbering themselves with the cost of a season ticket.Unfortunately we have been here before where the usual numpties keep squeaking about this imagined 8000 fans who will simply turn up and pay current prices. Supply and demand DOES NOT work that way. The figures I have been quoted show that we are currently recieving the maximum  revenue possible - bizarre as it sounds, an extra 8000 (giiven the demand) would most likely give a lower overall take if the requirement was maximum capacity.Away from the finances (cost) there is the problem of demand. At the moment you pay for a seat. Whereas you would never have exactly the correct split between those who want to stand and those who prefer to sit. And bear in mind crowds at Carrow Road are being made up with happy clappies with long term fans drifting away. Happy Clappies are mostly there for the experience.not the football ... they want to be entertained with men running about kicking a ball being only one part of that experience. You would inevitably have unsold capacity.As someone who grew up with terracing I can say I much prefer terracing. However what you are proposing is not that. One of the delights of terracing was the ability to move about - where possible. You could stand with you dad, a half dozen friends or any combination depending on the circumstances. This is not that. I am not sure what you mean about 80''s terracing either. It looked no different to the terracing of all the previous decades, and in fact it was not. If by 80''s you mean Hillsborough and Heysel then the problem was NOT the terracing it was one set of fans (Liverpool) and one flawed political response (seating).Sure, paint me as the baddie, make up stuff I have never stated but be aware that if you imagine that clubs have not looked at this then you are niave in the extreme. Be also aware clubs who for many reasons may not want what you are asking will blow you out of the water with similar counter points. Argue from your strengths, not your weaknesses. Unfortunately to are setting yourself up for a massive failing ... which sadly will certainly impact on any future debate about standing at football matches.

[Thomo 0]

Any trial is likely to be "as we are" but having a standing spot instead of our current seating arrangement.Either that or if they do allow more fans, row allocation, so it stays 17-18 fans per each row.Personally, what I would like long term, is unreserved blocks with sufficient barriers and exits allowing fans to buy tickets in areas where they can congregate together to create more atmosphere, in a more traditional way but with safer standing facilities.With today''s technology this could be achievable, digital ticketing allowing people into the blocks they have purchased for. It is what they do at Dortmund, with their yellow wall holding as much as our entire Carrow Road capacity. However, we know that there is also the big brother effect of CCTV and knowing who is sitting where, that is what could make this unachievable.Safety is what matters here.We''ll just take it one step at a time.

[hairy canary 0]

[quote user="Thomo"]We believe the installation of the standing for this area to cost around £250-300k, to put that in perspective we shelled out the same sum for the goal line technology in the summer, something we''ll never make a return on[/quote]

What you fail to mention is that it was a necessity to have goal line technology, therefore the club had to spend the money if they wanted to remain in the PL. Don''t see how you can compare the something that MUST be complied with, compared to something that you and (how ever many) others want to see return.

Do you really think the club (or any club) will spend money for the benefit of the fans, with no benefits for the club (using City 1st reply regarding people buying cheaper standing for some matches, not season tickets), or do you know where the extra fans are that are ready to fill the extra seating/standing that will be available with the implementation of rail seating.

[hairy canary 0]

And I have no idea why the quote didn''t work correctly...It looked fine in the preview before posting.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="Thomo"]However, we know that there is also the big brother effect of CCTV and knowing who is sitting where, that is what could make this unachievable.Safety is what matters here.[/quote]I think you''ve answered your own question there.

[Thomo 0]

Thanks for your response City1st.I''m not here to paint anyone as a baddie. We too want a safestanding long goal where people can move to where they want (block permitted), however, we need to take this one step at a time.Many traditional fans have left due to the gradual inflation in prices and the level of atmosphere dropping as a result of the happy clappers you refer to.We believe that with a standing area, lower ticket prices and a fresh atmosphere to boot that many of the fans who have left would return and in turn encourage a new younger fan base which has been driven away from this club by the lack of availability.I''m not saying we''ll get an extra 8000 people, but an increase of 2200 as proposed, is not so unachievable. We still have a large Season ticket waiting list, many of whom turn away seats in the Jarrold, N&P and city stand because they would prefer to sit/stand in an area with an atmosphere. Many of these fans would jump at the chance of having a standing area. As for stating that this terrace is no different to the terraces of the other decades...please take a look for yourself....https://twitter.com/Thomoncfc/status/417770956745363456/photo/1

[Thomo 0]

by the way, we would love for you to fill in the survey, whether you are FOR or AGAINST safestanding...This isn''t a petition...this is a survey to give us accurate figures that show what OUR fans want.

[Bill 1,788]

"Safety is what matters here"or more like accountabilityI would also look at insurance requirements (or what the not too bright call Health and Safety). It is though that the insurance companies will do all they can to minimise risk, whereas the reality is they will do all they can to avoid paying out, hence clubs (and elsewhere) often taking what seems over cautious measures.Sadly this merely allows the terminally dim to bounce of the walls like Daleks on speed as they shriek in ever excitable voices that ''health and safety has gone mad ... mad .. mad .. it''s gone made !"Again I would suggest those behind this campaign take a step back. understand what objections there might be, then focus on countering them rather than simply putting up the idea that something is a ''good thing'' and have it backed by flawed figures.

[lake district canary 4,830]

Personally, I think achieving the magic 30,000 figure capacity is one that would be a good aim.  That only needs around 3,000 more seats/places. If this could be achieved through safe standing and without building new stands, it would be a good way of reaching 30,000.  My old hobby horse of the hotel corner is still one that needs resolving at some stage and if a few hundred seats were put in there, it could free up some standing room in the lower barclay.  However, I don''t think it will happen as has been said over and over, the priority is the team development.   Also, the cost of converting and inconvenience of accomodating/switching season ticket holders around is prohibitive, let alone the fact that as yet the rules for standing have not been and are unlikely to change in a hurry.  But good luck to any initiative that is putting the idea forward, as ultimately it is something most of us would like to see. 

[JF 694]

Bonkers that it''s fine for 125000 people to stand crowded together at glastobury but not at football.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="Thomo"]Thanks for your response City1st.I''m not here to paint anyone as a baddie. We too want a safestanding long goal where people can move to where they want (block permitted), however, we need to take this one step at a time.Many traditional fans have left due to the gradual inflation in prices and the level of atmosphere dropping as a result of the happy clappers you refer to.We believe that with a standing area, lower ticket prices and a fresh atmosphere to boot that many of the fans who have left would return and in turn encourage a new younger fan base which has been driven away from this club by the lack of availability.I''m not saying we''ll get an extra 8000 people, but an increase of 2200 as proposed, is not so unachievable. We still have a large Season ticket waiting list, many of whom turn away seats in the Jarrold, N&P and city stand because they would prefer to sit/stand in an area with an atmosphere. Many of these fans would jump at the chance of having a standing area. As for stating that this terrace is no different to the terraces of the other decades...please take a look for yourself....https://twitter.com/Thomoncfc/status/417770956745363456/photo/1[/quote]ThomobrieflyYou need to address the problem of this causing a lower overall gate receipt.This should not necessarily be seen as a negative as you could rightly argue the point about the benefits of better atmosphere. Given the huge income now any losses should be seen in that context.  However putting up the flawed idea of a higher gate receipt is handing a massive advantage to any opposing this.Understand the point about season ticket waiting list and the 8000. The waiting list is high in one respect as there are a number of fans who want to sit together and so will wait until there is 3 spaces together (family). The 8000 figure is the number of fans the numpties have previously claimed we could sell tickets to. That figure is totally false - don''t be fooled by claims of huge demand. If it were possible to sell season tickets that allowed fans to chose 9 out of the 19 home games for half the current price then I think you would see the real demand. You cannot simply drop the price in one part of the ground without it having a major effect elsewhere.As to the terraces I think you have misunderstood my point. I was querying you comment about ''80''s terracing'' being different to what it was before, not your suggestion of what it might be.As I said previously don''t imagine clubs have not looked into and discussed this matter - so look at it from their view and built your case on that basis.

[KeelansGlove 0]

I see no reason not to reintroduce safe standing although I would suggest the preferred model would be self financing.

I was very pro choice back in the day and was almost arrested for standing in the back row of the barclay lower in the first all seater game against Chelsea.

I would suggest that if it were allowed the standing sections should be pre sold at a price that would also cover the costs, perhaps a commitment or bond to buy a season ticket for 3 years at the same price as seating, perhaps on the understanding that thereafter the price would be x amount less than seats.

If people really want it they would commit to it and give the club a reason rather than a cost. Its either about atmosphere or cost and it is an irrelevance if its all about people trying to get footie on the cheap.

Not sure I would take the opportunity these days but the principle of choice is what is important, that and the atmosphere.

[Bill 1,788]

[quote user="JF"]Bonkers that it''s fine for 125000 people to stand crowded together at glastobury but not at football.[/quote]errr, they are standing on grass NOT concrete terracingthere is enough space to allow folk to expand into what space they need - they are not crowded together bar the few yards at the frontthere are huge exits on three sides of the standing area

[lake district canary 4,830]

[quote user="JF"]Bonkers that it''s fine for 125000 people to stand crowded together at glastobury but not at football.[/quote]

[:)] But 123,000 of those are so out of it most of the time they they can barely stand up anyway. 

[JF 694]

City 1st have you ever stood in the middle of a crowd that size at these events? There is very much a crush and surge that happens and the only other time I have experienced that was back on the terracing. Standing at a concert is far from safe.

[Bill 1,788]

yep, though not certain why you have changed Glastonbury to concerts, have done both and will do so this summerthe point you ignore is the difference between the ground and terracingmany will remember the crowded shuffle up Carrow Road after games - now compare that to the 1971 Ibrox disaster and then tell us what the difference was

[zemas tendon 0]

No point putting this op on here, to many old fuddy duddys, all areas apart from the pit or Barclay, sit there like cardboard cut outs!!

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="zemas tendon"]No point putting this op on here, to many old fuddy duddys, all areas apart from the pit or Barclay, sit there like cardboard cut outs!![/quote]Don''t forget, those old fuddy duddys were immature know-it -alls like you once zema..........

[CambridgeCanary 0]

[quote user="JF"]Bonkers that it''s fine for 125000 people to stand crowded together at glastobury but not at football.[/quote]

You''re right

If there is a fatal incident at Glastonbury like Hillsborough, then Glastonbury will be regulated. I''ve said before that I have no interest in standing but no government will change the law because if there is an accident then it will be blamed on the government. Look what happens every time some poor kid dies after taking a legal high. The media attack the government at any opportunity and no government wants trouble it can avoid. Leave things as they are and there is no danger of any embarrassing incident especially fatalities.

This is a nonstarter politically I fear, however logical the arguments may be

[Yelloow Since 72 56]

Completed the survey Thomo, and thanks for all your work on this!

[Bill 1,788]

He is not rightas said -Glastonbury is on grass, there is ample space to move and virtually 100% open exits on three sides125,000 DO NOT stand close together, nor have they everit is the terracing (or steps), not the numbers almost 43 years to the day - Ibrox Stadium, 66 killed ... crushed to deaththe arguments are NOT logical eitherthere is a reasoned argument that could be made, but at the moment it is not being made