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morty

Racism in football.

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i Personally believe we go over the top with racism, i believe people will say what they see, especially when angry, you fat xxxx, you skinny xxxx, you four eyed xxx, you black whatever, as what was said earlier about Bale, monkey boy, why that chant. Racism is a deep rooted belief not a throwaway statement imo. too many people use the race card today its got to the stage politicians dare not discuss immigration anymore in case they are deemed racist. this is coming from a man who grew up with a black bro and sister and seen real racism close at hand

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[quote user="ricky knight"]i Personally believe we go over the top with racism, i believe people will say what they see, especially when angry, you fat xxxx, you skinny xxxx, you four eyed xxx, you black whatever, as what was said earlier about Bale, monkey boy, why that chant. Racism is a deep rooted belief not a throwaway statement imo. too many people use the race card today its got to the stage politicians dare not discuss immigration anymore in case they are deemed racist. this is coming from a man who grew up with a black bro and sister and seen real racism close at hand[/quote]I guess that would depend on whether the MP was discussing immigration in a calm manner and in economic and social rather than ethnic and perjorative terms and whether his comments were accurately reported in the mass media without whipping up hysteria based on their own editors'' take on the subject. You can discuss immigration with out mud-slinging… in theory at least, practice is somewhat different.I''m all up for a discussion on immigration, just so long as the vast number of migrants from the UK are brought into the discussion also… I''m sure the good folk of France, Spain, Italy, Greece and more have their view on the hordes of UK immigrants taking their jobs, houses, women, water etc.

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[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="ricky knight"]i Personally believe we go over the top with racism, i believe people will say what they see, especially when angry, you fat xxxx, you skinny xxxx, you four eyed xxx, you black whatever, as what was said earlier about Bale, monkey boy, why that chant. Racism is a deep rooted belief not a throwaway statement imo. too many people use the race card today its got to the stage politicians dare not discuss immigration anymore in case they are deemed racist. this is coming from a man who grew up with a black bro and sister and seen real racism close at hand[/quote]I guess that would depend on whether the MP was discussing immigration in a calm manner and in economic and social rather than ethnic and perjorative terms and whether his comments were accurately reported in the mass media without whipping up hysteria based on their own editors'' take on the subject. You can discuss immigration with out mud-slinging… in theory at least, practice is somewhat different.I''m all up for a discussion on immigration, just so long as the vast number of migrants from the UK are brought into the discussion also… I''m sure the good folk of France, Spain, Italy, Greece and more have their view on the hordes of UK immigrants taking their jobs, houses, women, water etc.[/quote]

they wont even discuss it on question time, they skip round it because its gone silly mate.its not whether the rights or wrongs its the fact they are scared to loose votes or are deemed racist for even talking about it.

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I wholeheartedly agree that politicians are afraid to discuss immigration for fear of being branded racist, and the media have a lot to answer for that.

I think their are three types of racists, one who has a deep rooted hatred of people outside of their ethnic group. (See enthic clashes thorughout history and in large areas of Africa today)

Then there are the ignorant racists. These people will turn around and say things like ''all Asians own corner shops'' etc. I don''t think they show the level of hatred of the first group but it is still racism nonetheless.

And then the third group who perhaps could be in group 2 but are those who grew up in an era where institutional racism was rife so they are like your slightly racist grandma!

Another point to chuck in with Ricky''s point about people are too quick to play the race card is that racism is an incredibly emotive word to use, you are guaranteed a reaction if you call somebody a racist. What would ordinarily be disorderly behavior suddenly gets called racist and people take (more of) an interest. Of course that is just my cynical interpretation!

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"Parliament has passed legislation aimed at outlawing crime where the offender is motivated by hostility or hatred towards the victim''s race or religious beliefs (actual or perceived)."

Is that straight of English Law Walking Man?

If so I find the use of the word perceived rather disturbing, So whether racism was intended or not, you are guilty of racism if the victim perceives it as such? Without that word the legal definition makes perfect sense, with it it leaves it rather up to the alleged victims interpretation. Unless I am misunderstanding.

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I had a guy behind me in the River End once shout "get back to your own country" at Cisse at the QPR game. I gave him a scowl and that shut him up, I didn''t think about reporting him though.

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[quote user="BWs Cat...again"]I had a guy behind me in the River End once shout "get back to your own country" at Cisse at the QPR game. I gave him a scowl and that shut him up, I didn''t think about reporting him though.[/quote]Wait, somebody shouted in the River end?Blimey.[;)]

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="BWs Cat...again"]I had a guy behind me in the River End once shout "get back to your own country" at Cisse at the QPR game. I gave him a scowl and that shut him up, I didn''t think about reporting him though.[/quote]Wait, somebody shouted in the River end?Blimey.[;)][/quote]Probably a QPR fan Morty.....

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[quote user="Monty13"]"Parliament has passed legislation aimed at outlawing crime where the offender is motivated by hostility or hatred towards the victim''s race or religious beliefs (actual or perceived)."

Is that straight of English Law Walking Man?

If so I find the use of the word perceived rather disturbing, So whether racism was intended or not, you are guilty of racism if the victim perceives it as such? Without that word the legal definition makes perfect sense, with it it leaves it rather up to the alleged victims interpretation. Unless I am misunderstanding.[/quote]

That was lifted straight off of the CPS website but I think the word perceived is there in regards to somebody''s perception of somebody else''s religion rather than a perception of what constitutes racism.

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[quote user="Andy Larkin"] I''m all up for a discussion on immigration, just so long as the vast number of migrants from the UK are brought into the discussion also… I''m sure the good folk of France, Spain, Italy, Greece and more have their view on the hordes of UK immigrants taking their jobs, houses, women, water etc.
[/quote]

There are not hordes of UK immigrants in Greece or Italy for a start so I don''t know why you even mentioned them.

A large proportion of those UK citizens living in France are working there and making a positive contribution, as are the 130,000 French citizens that live in this country.

UK citizens make up the third largest immigrant group in Spain and there are stories of non-integration. Pensioners make up approximately 20% of the ex-pat population and a large proportion of the others pay their way. Even though there are quite a few arrests of UK citizens these are usually for low-level crime as evidenced by the small amount of UK prisoners in Spanish Jails compared to other immigrant groups. Perhaps you would like to ask the Spanish what they think of the Moroccan and Romanian immigrants filling their prisons?

The ebb and flow of citizens between the countries of western europe has never been a problem as those migrants, on the whole, have shown to be a positive benefit to their host country.

 

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The most annoying thing i find is when MP''s say the british people wont do the work, well hello it used to get done before they were here. take fruit picking for example when i was younger you needed money you could go on the land, now its a closed shop, because greedy farmers want to pay peanuts, where do them peanuts most of it go out of this country back to their homelands and not spend here. I dont for a minute blame the immigrants but the system is wrong and the excuses for using them is BS Too.

off topic on know so OTBC.

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I still feel it is rather ambiguously worded for a legal description! but suspect you are probably right walking man.

So, if someone in the crowd shouts at a black player who has just scored against our team "you black (expletive)!" I would be surprised if any fan wouldn''t be, quite rightly imo, appalled. I have heard someone do this at Carrow Road (at the river end no less!). However by the LEGAL definition is he being racist? or in the heat of the moment has he latched onto the colour of his skin as a description in the same way that other fans shout "you fat (expletive)!" at Holt.

His hatred of the player in that moment isn''t motivated by the fact he is black, but by the fact he has scored, but he has used the word black. It is quite clear legally that racism is where the motivation for the hatred comes from the fact the person is black.

I''m not trying to be controversial and I realise that is probably an discussion not worth getting into on this board. I think whatever the reason for using it, such a phrase in modern society is quite rightly not condoned by people, I found it pretty personally appalling. But I can also see why legally a lot of these high profile racial cases, like John Terry''s, never result in criminal prosecution, because of proving motivation.

In Terry''s case no one was defending the fact that Terry had been abusive, certainly not the accused, but the prosecution case was that "The Crown alleges that the words he used demonstrated hostility based on Mr Ferdinand''s membership or presumed membership of a racial group." In the end there was not sufficient evidence to prove that Terry''s words had been motivated by this reason, that is why he was found not guilty.

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You make some great points Monty. I tried to highlight this in my post. It probably isn''t racist to call someone a black b@stard in those circumstances. There is much more genuine racism going on that isn''t so immediately obvious. Which is why I''m a little bit against other fans policing this in the ground. And I would hope if stewards are expected to police it that they woud undergo some training.

 

 

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As I say Nigel, I think it would be quite hard to prosecute in a court under the legal definition of Racism.

I still don''t think that it should be used, but I don''t think a person using such a phrase once in a moment of anger makes them a racist.

If anything a fair punishment, if the club was determined to ban such a person, would be to do so, but allow them to return if they agreed to some form of racism education.

If someone repeatedly uses such a phrase, well then the question for their motivation in doing so is a little more open to interpretation by the law.

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[quote user="Monty13"]As I say Nigel, I think it would be quite hard to prosecute in a court under the legal definition of Racism.

I still don''t think that it should be used, but I don''t think a person using such a phrase once in a moment of anger makes them a racist.

If anything a fair punishment, if the club was determined to ban such a person, would be to do so, but allow them to return if they agreed to some form of racism education.

If someone repeatedly uses such a phrase, well then the question for their motivation in doing so is a little more open to interpretation by the law.[/quote]I''m not sure I agree. Heat of the moment isn''t really a defence, especially when using a turn of phrase that even the most poorly educated and racially aware person, knows is unacceptable.I think a good acid test test is asking yourself "Would I walk up to this person in the street and say it to his face?"Answer that honestly and you have your guideline.

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I dont say this lightly but i think some players have to man up and just be proud of what they are. My mum adopted my bro and sister in the 60s and was spit on in the street but it did not stop her going into the street or being proud of her kids.

If players are going to report or walk off everytime some thick fxck calls them names in a 20,000 plus stadium, imo the idiots are winning, they want a reaction if they dont get one they are gutted.

It will come to a stage where a team is losing and their fans will use racism to get the game off. Things have come along way since the 60''s but you are always going to get divlo''s, best defence dont rise to them.

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[quote user="Monty13"]Morty, heat of the moment is not the defence, it is the motivation behind what you have said.[/quote]Okay, but in turn, it isn''t any defence for what you say.So if a fan racially abuses a player, immediately realises it was a heat of the moment thing, does he follow up with a chant of "Really sorry, I said that in the heat of the moment, please accept my full apologies"?[;)]

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Haha, no I don''t think that would work!

My only point is that under the law the persons motivation behind their hatred is the persons race.

Does this mean that what they have said isn''t racist? Probably not by each of our understanding of racism, but to be prosecuted for it the motivation behind what they have said has to be the players race.

Some would argue by even bringing up their race in the abuse it proves that racial hatred was the motivation, but in a single incident I think that would be quite difficult to prove.

I''m not condoning racism in any shape or form, but in legal terms, it is not a clear cut issue.

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[quote user="Monty13"]Haha, no I don''t think that would work!

My only point is that under the law the persons motivation behind their hatred is the persons race.

Does this mean that what they have said isn''t racist? Probably not by each of our understanding of racism, but to be prosecuted for it the motivation behind what they have said has to be the players race.

Some would argue by even bringing up their race in the abuse it proves that racial hatred was the motivation, but in a single incident I think that would be quite difficult to prove.

I''m not condoning racism in any shape or form, but in legal terms, it is not a clear cut issue.[/quote]I do see what you are saying. Have you seen the footage that Sky filmed undercover at Millwall?There is a fairly clear cut example of continued, and deliberate racist behaviour, and I believe the lovely chap has been arrested.So, yes, I believe there are varying degrees, but even in the case of a one off incident, perhaps not being prosecutable, its still not right just because you only said it once, in the heat of the moment.

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Yes I totally agree, I was just making the point that just because you say something that is offensive to others, it does not make you are racist in the eyes of the law. To a certain extant though, the club, like we do as individuals, has every right to not want to be associated with such people and ban them, whether the police prosecute them or not.

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[quote user="Monty13"]Yes I totally agree, I was just making the point that just because you say something that is offensive to others, it does not make you are racist in the eyes of the law. To a certain extant though, the club, like we do as individuals, has every right to not want to be associated with such people and ban them, whether the police prosecute them or not.[/quote]Whilst it isn''t the public''s job to police this, its important that people make sure its known that this behaviour isn''t acceptable. Clearly its acceptable on the terraces at Millwall, as it was allowed to happen over a sustained period.I''d like to hope that this thing would never happen at our club, and that if it did, people would make it very clear to the individual that their behaviour isn''t welcome here.It would be interesting to see what the stewards would be willing to do too.

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[quote user="Monty13"]As I say Nigel, I think it would be quite hard to prosecute in a court under the legal definition of Racism. I still don''t think that it should be used, but I don''t think a person using such a phrase once in a moment of anger makes them a racist. If anything a fair punishment, if the club was determined to ban such a person, would be to do so, but allow them to return if they agreed to some form of racism education. If someone repeatedly uses such a phrase, well then the question for their motivation in doing so is a little more open to interpretation by the law.[/quote]

 

Sorry Monty, I missed this before. Your reference to education is a big part of the solution for me. As you can see by this thread most of us don''t fully understand racism. What muddies the waters is so many people being offended on behalf of others. We see people getting offended on behalf of others on this board a lot too. And they would have the board moderated in a way that''s acceptable to them. That''s why I think we should be careful about policing racism ourselves. To get someone thrown out and to leave them branded as a racist needs careful consideration. Being cleared later will not always remove the stigma. So educating stewards would be a must for me. I''m not sure if this is done though.

 

 

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[quote user="Monty13"]

So, if someone in the crowd shouts at a black player who has just scored against our team "you black (expletive)!" I would be surprised if any fan wouldn''t be, quite rightly imo, appalled. I have heard someone do this at Carrow Road (at the river end no less!). However by the LEGAL definition is he being racist? or in the heat of the moment has he latched onto the colour of his skin as a description in the same way that other fans shout "you fat (expletive)!" at Holt.

His hatred of the player in that moment isn''t motivated by the fact he is black, but by the fact he has scored, but he has used the word black. It is quite clear legally that racism is where the motivation for the hatred comes from the fact the person is black.

[/quote]

But why, in that instinctive moment, is ''black'' the adjective they use?

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Claud, you bring up an interesting point on why choose that word as your describing word, but it also highlights that in that single context black is the descriptor of the individual not the motivation for the abuse.

I''m not saying it is right in any sense to label someone black while abusing someone, I think we would all agree that is a racist action, if not legally so. But how we use black in the English language has been deeply affected by stigmatism that you are somehow being racist by describing someone as black in any situation.

If Norwich are playing and the only player on the field who is black is Bassong and someone, who doesn''t know our players, asks you which one he is... would you say the black one? Is it racist to do so? you are just using black as an adjective, is that wrong?

It''s an entirely different situation but grammatically similar. One we would all agree is racist, if not necessarily legally, the other...I think honestly depends on each individuals idea of racism, some would say of course not, others today would think yes.

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Many self appointed racism policemen would have people branded a racist because they described someone as black but wouldn''t recognise real racism if it bit them on the bum.

 

 

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