Manc's v Ajax

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

A bought team of foreign mercenaries versus a developed team full of Dutch talent.

Joe Hart continues to look vulnerable and yet commentators keep saying he could get 200 Enland caps. Come on Big John!

Manc fans are as quiet as a Jeremy Kyle audience watching Mr. & Mrs. Dutch fans loud and now surrounded by stewards for some reason.

Norwich City, few goals this year but top of the alternate league table for goals by Englishmen counting only.

Commentators eulogising over players who generally do nothing to represent the standard of English football.

Come on Ajax!!!!

[Making Plans 942]

[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]

Joe Hart continues to look vulnerable [/quote]I don''t think he is as good as everyone makes out & he definitely ain''t as good as he thinks he is

[0ridgemanddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0]

Neither is the linesman guessing offsides.

[Canaries Utd 0]

I will support English teams in Europe (bar Ipsh*t), the lino and ref were wrong tonight.

[Gingerpele 0]

Yeah, but Canaries Utd, how English are these English sides?

Chelsea last season, they had 5 English players (I think) represent them in the latter stages, Bertrand being one of them and he hardly played and Terry missed the final. Foreign manager, owner, probably most of the back room staff. Even round Stamford Bridge there are a lot of banners for supporters from all over the world.

Its all very well saying you''ll support the English teams, but the English teams aren''t very English. Ajax are dutch. Dutch players, dutch manager, looking at their names Dutch board members. Fans who represent the club well. Personally I think the Dutch have more reason to be proud tonight than the English. And i''d certainly be able to say I would support Dutch teams in Europe if I were Dutch. I can''t say i''ll support English teams purely because they are based on England. English football is not English anymore. The national team is a prime example of that.

You look at other (top) nations, and you see their style embedded in many of the teams (and top teams) in their football teams. I can''t imagine any other league has anywhere near the percentage of foreign players in their top teams. The top English clubs are have different styles, different formations, different style players. The only thing similar about them is they buy lots of outside players and try and fit them in. You get players like Milner, Barry, Johnson, even your better players like Gerrard and Rooney, and they have to fit in. Where as players like RVP, Mata, Hazard, Suarez are having the team built round them. I know not all (or even many) teams in the other top leagues rely as heavily on home grown players, taught to play football in the national style brought into the team. But in most cases no one is as extreme as the most successful English sides.

[First Wazzock 916]

I''m not going to say the officials robbed Man City tonight, but they certainly didn''t help them.

The ''goal'' that was disallowed, by an assitant referee on the other side of the pitch - miles away from the action. Even at local level the referee would be expected to make that decision, as it was his side of the pitch and he should have had the linesman in view i.e. been in a good enough position to be looking along the line towards his linesman - Poor Reffing, terrible from the Linesman. This is something I really dislike about our officials in the Premier League, the Refs do not follow their diagonal right through to the goal line. They may be fit, but they certainly do not get into very good positions to have a clear view of things in the most important areas of the pitch, in my opinion.

The ''penalty'' at the end of the game was a disgrace. the game runs from the first whistle blast to the last. The award of a penalty is the only thing that can extend a game beyond full time. It was cowardly of the Ref not to have given it.

It still amazes me that some of these jokers are allowed to officiate at the highest level, when some are clearly not good enough to be reffing at the most junior level.

[Canaries Utd 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]Yeah, but Canaries Utd, how English are these English sides?

Chelsea last season, they had 5 English players (I think) represent them in the latter stages, Bertrand being one of them and he hardly played and Terry missed the final. Foreign manager, owner, probably most of the back room staff. Even round Stamford Bridge there are a lot of banners for supporters from all over the world.

Its all very well saying you''ll support the English teams, but the English teams aren''t very English. Ajax are dutch. Dutch players, dutch manager, looking at their names Dutch board members. Fans who represent the club well. Personally I think the Dutch have more reason to be proud tonight than the English. And i''d certainly be able to say I would support Dutch teams in Europe if I were Dutch. I can''t say i''ll support English teams purely because they are based on England. English football is not English anymore. The national team is a prime example of that.

You look at other (top) nations, and you see their style embedded in many of the teams (and top teams) in their football teams. I can''t imagine any other league has anywhere near the percentage of foreign players in their top teams. The top English clubs are have different styles, different formations, different style players. The only thing similar about them is they buy lots of outside players and try and fit them in. You get players like Milner, Barry, Johnson, even your better players like Gerrard and Rooney, and they have to fit in. Where as players like RVP, Mata, Hazard, Suarez are having the team built round them. I know not all (or even many) teams in the other top leagues rely as heavily on home grown players, taught to play football in the national style brought into the team. But in most cases no one is as extreme as the most successful English sides.[/quote]I do appreciate that, but the team is Manchester City, the City is Manchester, the country is England. If any English team (excluding Ipsh*t) play against a European side i will support our country. I agree with all your points, but English teams promote the Premier League, and as long as the teams continue to perform then WE will see the best players in the world coming to Carrow Road. May our visit to the Premier league be a lengthy one.

[Redders Right Foot 22]

I saw a picture after the reverse fixture when it was played, comparing the price of the two teams

the amount of Ajax players from a free transfer or academy product was amazing. truly a well run club.

[lake district canary 0]

I don''t know about other people, but I like watching honest football.   Hard to find, but if you look at Dortmund and Ajax, the way they play is of a style that includes good old fashioned unselfish teamwork.    Skilful - and team ethic.    With  Man City the team ethic is not so strong - skilful yes but are being shown up by good teams.    I don''t care where a team comes from, if they play great football as a team - that is what I want to see.   Everton are good to watch. 

As for Norwich, we should aspire to be like these clubs.    Man City and the super rich clubs are there to be shot at imo.   Let them keep their moneyed players - no team should be afraid of them.    Have a go - and the better teams will sometimes come out on top.

[Legend Iwan 30]

Is this the Dutch Ajax team who played eight non-Dutch players against Man City?

[Gingerpele 0]

LDC, while I agree with you in general, there is a huge difference in the quality of those individuals making up the team of Ajax/Dortmund/(Barcelona, they count... They are just a lot better) and ours, At Carrow Road last season up until Man.Cs 3rd goal we were as good, and for large spells better than them. We could have taken the lead before them, and we probably should have made it 2-2, but we didn''t and a moment of brilliance from Aguero later were 3-1 down and we fell apart.

Ajax and Dortmund, despite being more team based have a lot more quality in there team. Of course we can beat Man.C, anyone can beat anyone. We did have a go at them last season, it just didn''t work.

[lake district canary 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]LDC, while I agree with you in general, there is a huge difference in the quality of those individuals making up the team of Ajax/Dortmund/(Barcelona, they count... They are just a lot better) and ours, At Carrow Road last season up until Man.Cs 3rd goal we were as good, and for large spells better than them. We could have taken the lead before them, and we probably should have made it 2-2, but we didn''t and a moment of brilliance from Aguero later were 3-1 down and we fell apart.

Ajax and Dortmund, despite being more team based have a lot more quality in there team. Of course we can beat Man.C, anyone can beat anyone. We did have a go at them last season, it just didn''t work.[/quote]

I did qualify my statement by saying '' "sometimes" come out on top''.    I accept that the top clubs are going to win a fair proportion of their games, but that sometimes a good team performance will give them problems.   We have already proved - as other teams have - that the top clubs can be beaten if they are not on top form.  The top clubs are not unbeatable and I think more people are beginning to realise it.    

[Gingerpele 0]

I don''t think anyone has ever really questioned that?

Certainly I have never had a problem or known anyone to have a problem with th idea anyone can beat anyone, meaning big clubs can, and are beaten by lesser opponents. If they weren''t there would be no point actually playing games.

Favourites exist in (almost) every game, we will be favourites against Reading, were on form, they aren''t, doesn''t mean they won''t beat us, but the fact they can win doesn''t mean we won''t beat them.

Do you really think people don''t already realise that? Just because I (or anyone) might say they think Man.C or any other top team will thrash us, doesn''t mean I (or anyone else) think the result is a forgone conclusion and we have 0 chance. As humans, as football fans, we make predictions, those predictions are mostly based on form, facts, ability, with a bit of loyalty and personal feeling thrown in. I know you always have a problem with people expecting, and at times it seems like you hate anyone suggesting a result before the game at all.

But top teams have always lost to lesser teams from time to time. Ve personally always seem to notice Man,U lose to one of the relegated or very poor teams every season if we beat them in a couple weeks, it will be a surprise, but not a big surprise. If we thrash Reading, it won''t be a big surprise, but it won''t be if we lose either. The one thing you can expect with football, is for the expected to not always happen.

[lake district canary 0]

Since I started posting on here I have seen so many people talk up the top clubs and treat them as if they are up there on some pedestal, whereas I have always seen any opponent as a team to be beaten.  So many fans seem to have been in awe of Manure, Chelsea, Arsenal.   Yes they will beat us more than we will beat them.    I don''t hate anyone for having a point of view about the possible outcome of a match.    Its just that I prefer to go into a match with a view just to accept what happens without having any pre-judgement either way.  

It may be an age thing.  I''m in my fifties and when I was younger I may have been more worrisome about possible match outcomes.  Certainly if promotion or relegation is imminent things can be more stressful.   But since Paul Lambert came to the club I have never had any qualms about our ability to compete.    It was a real education to me to see how he was able to maintain such a positive energy in the team.    I am quite positive by nature, I think, and have seen through my work with kids and getting them to perform - both in music (teaching) and in sports (I used to coach an under 11 team) that attitude is one of the most important things to get right - whatever field you are in.   

I can''t prejudge a match before it happens - I just can''t.   What I react to on here is usually people who think we are going to be thrashed every time we come up against someone difficult or higher in the league - it doesn''t mean I think we are going to win.     As for your last sentence - "The one thing you can expect with football, is for the expected to not always happen."   - kind of backs me up.   What you expect is not always going to happen - so why expect it in the first place?  

[Thirsty Lizard 3,184]

Gingerpele - I''ve got some news for you!! We are NOT favourites to beat Reading on Saturday.

Reading are favourites to beat us!

Go on Betfair and check: at the moment Reading are 2.34 to win and we are 3.4.

And if you''re interested in these things we are third favourites to be relegated.

[Gingerpele 0]

Because its human nature LDC. Not everyone is like it, you are an example of that. But a large majority of football fans are. Betting wouldn''t exist if everyone was like you would it?

And God knows why the bookies have Reading favourites to win. Doesn''t make any sense... Draw should be the shortest odds. With us and Reading about the same. But from a fan point of view, most would be thinking this is a game we should win based on recent events.

[Rolf Harris 31]

[quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]Gingerpele - I''ve got some news for you!! We are NOT favourites to beat Reading on Saturday.

Reading are favourites to beat us!

Go on Betfair and check: at the moment Reading are 2.34 to win and we are 3.4.

And if you''re interested in these things we are third favourites to be relegated.[/quote]betting means f-all, the odds go on what the punters think.

[Rolf Harris 31]

And there was three dutch players in the ajax starting 11

[Gingerpele 0]

And if you don''t have expectations you can never be happy or disappointed. You''ll be indifferent because you were happy with the notion that anything can happen.

If Man.U beat us, in theory I won''t be very disappointed because Man.U should beat us. But if Reading beat us, I will be disappointed because we should be able to get at least a point. Of course things happen in the games that effect the way you react to the game afterwards. Last season it was disappointing we lost to Man.U because we played so well and had good chances, and they were a bit lucky to win. But going back to Man.C, although we played well there quality came out on top and it wasn''t too disappointing, same with Chelsea this season. But when we beat Arsenal this season it was great, because at that stage they weren''t doing too badly. And although I knew we could beat them, in fact I think I said I thought we would win, it was still a surprise because Arsenal are the better side. There is no questioning that, over the course of the season (and every season since the last time we finished above them, 92?) are the better team. Of course that doesn''t mean we can''t beat them, as I said, if that was the case there would be no point playing games.

But if you don''t have expectation, how can you be happy with a result? Or disappointed? You can''t... There is an order, some teams are better than others. You expect those teams to beat the lesser teams. No one that I know of would say its a forgone conclusion and that the lesser teams will never win. They might predict the lesser team to lose each one of those individual games, but know that every now and then, the lesser team will win. There is nothing wrong with saying Man.U will beat us, they should beat us. They are a very good side. Doesn''t mean those people saying Man.U will beat us think the result has happened and there is no way it could be any other way.

[Gingerpele 0]

There were more than 3 Dutch players last night.

Vermeer, Blind, De Jone, Boerrigter, Van Rhijn & Babel all Dutch, all started. And 3 of the 5 others who started were at Ajax at youth level. And so was 1 of the 3 subs.

So 6 Dutch players and 4 youth products.

Don''t know where you got your 3 Dutch players info from...

Compared to Man.Cs 2 English starters and no youth products?

[Mungo Bumpkin 0]

The match laid bare the myth that the Premier League is the best in the world. The cream of the PL''s preening, overpaid show ponies were given an absolute footballing lesson by Ajax.

[lake district canary 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]And if you don''t have expectations you can never be happy or disappointed. You''ll be indifferent because you were happy with the notion that anything can happen. [/quote]

Far from it.   The unrealistic expectations of either ''we should win this'' or ''we''re going to lose this'' are putting false messages in a person''s head.  We simply don''t know what will happen in a game - my enjoyment from us scoring or winning a match is not less than someone who has the expectations of a particular result beforehand.  Nor is the disappointment at losing or playing badly.   The most disappointed I have been was the Villa match when I think the team showed lack of quality in finishing Villa off.     I was at the Liverpool match and thought we were slightly unlucky at times.  West Ham and Qpr we could have won, Newcastle was not fantastic but we competed.  Fulham was just one of those days.  Arsenal was a great day. Chelsea were simply better than us. 

I find the atmosphere electric at Carrow Rd - perhaps more so because I don''t get to many games there - and the excitement and thrill when we score hasn''t diminished.  Away games are always good.    So I don''t go thinking we''re going to win or lose - I go for the occasion and the excitement of being at a match.   The result?   Will be whatever it will be - but I will still be ecstatic when we win and down for the rest of the weekend if we lose.    

I loved it when PL was at the club - his stated intent was to go to every match to win it - that is how it should be - but "expecting" to win - whether its players or fans - puts a different complexion on that - it puts a false pressure on that no-one - player or fan - needs.  

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]Yeah, but Canaries Utd, how English are these English sides? Chelsea last season, they had 5 English players (I think) represent them in the latter stages, Bertrand being one of them and he hardly played and Terry missed the final. Foreign manager, owner, probably most of the back room staff. Even round Stamford Bridge there are a lot of banners for supporters from all over the world. Its all very well saying you''ll support the English teams, but the English teams aren''t very English. Ajax are dutch. Dutch players, dutch manager, looking at their names Dutch board members. Fans who represent the club well. Personally I think the Dutch have more reason to be proud tonight than the English. And i''d certainly be able to say I would support Dutch teams in Europe if I were Dutch. I can''t say i''ll support English teams purely because they are based on England. English football is not English anymore. The national team is a prime example of that. You look at other (top) nations, and you see their style embedded in many of the teams (and top teams) in their football teams. I can''t imagine any other league has anywhere near the percentage of foreign players in their top teams. The top English clubs are have different styles, different formations, different style players. The only thing similar about them is they buy lots of outside players and try and fit them in. You get players like Milner, Barry, Johnson, even your better players like Gerrard and Rooney, and they have to fit in. Where as players like RVP, Mata, Hazard, Suarez are having the team built round them. I know not all (or even many) teams in the other top leagues rely as heavily on home grown players, taught to play football in the national style brought into the team. But in most cases no one is as extreme as the most successful English sides.[/quote]

 

Are you sure about that? Have you checked your "facts"?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Mungo Bumpkin"]The match laid bare the myth that the Premier League is the best in the world. The cream of the PL''s preening, overpaid show ponies were given an absolute footballing lesson by Ajax.[/quote]

 

Reuslting in a 2-2 thrashing. Right !

[Gingerpele 0]

As I posted Webbo, six Dutch players paying last night.

More than most English teams player English players ever play in the CL.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]As I posted Webbo, six Dutch players paying last night. More than most English teams player English players ever play in the CL.[/quote]

 

So the pronouncement "Ajax are Dutch, Dutch players" wasn''t strictly correct. Economical with the truth?

[Gingerpele 0]

Well not all Dutch players, of course not. I didn''t say they were 100% Dutch, they do have a large percentage of Dutch players. For a top team in what the 6th best (subjective of course) best league in Europe to start 6 players from their homeland, with a further 2/3 academy products is pretty impressive. They aren''t the only team like that (Barcelona are pretty similar).

Why do you have such an issue with my wording? Its rather strange, there is nothing wrong with my statement other than the way you''ve taken it. I didn''t say they only play Dutch players did I? I was making the point that they use a large amount of home grown players, unlike their opponents and other English sides who have experienced European success who rely heavily on other countries developing players.

[Gingerpele 0]

So, yes it was correct. They are a Dutch club. They do have Dutch players. And they play those Dutch players.

[Gingerpele 0]

Just to further my point, Man.C have 10 English players in their squad, 2 of them are GKs (one Richard Wright, who is pretty much there to make up the numbers). Michael Johnson, God knows what he''s doing there. And Alex Nimely who will probably not play for them at all this season. Rodwell and Sinclair who will be back up. Milner and Barry are interchangeable most of the time. Richards was back up last season, was looking good this year but is now injured. And Lescott seems out of favour I think, could be wrong.

10 English players, 3 unlikely to play at all. One Injured for ages. 2 back up at best, 2 who rarely start together. Not exactly representing English are they....

[Webbo118 0]

Keep going. I''m sure you''ll be able to convince yourself eventually.