Talk about England?

[Brendo 0]

World Class means you are better than the opposition? World class means you are up there with the worlds best?imo - Rooney is easily world class. He''s just brilliant. His goal record for Utd (and not a great Utd team at that) is brilliant, and for the last few seasons he hasn''t even played as the out and out striker. Rooney scored more than Aguero this season (admittedly many penalties) but Aguero is the goal scorer/furthest man forward, in an incredible City side, where as Rooney has a worse team around him. Cole I think is the world''s best left back - making him world class.Hart is in the top 3 GK''s in the world - Hart, Casillas and Neuer for me. Not sure what order, but Hart is world class. Terry - well Terry is very good but I can think of better CB''s - not world class but very good.Gerrard world class for me. So we have 4 World class players imo.I''d really like someone to debate with me as to why Rooney is not world class. Please come at me with a balanced reason, not "he''s ugly, a tw** and gets sent off all the time" (incorrect btw)[H]

[Ivan Easter 0]

I totally agree with Ricky Knight post. I think Defoe would have done a much better job than Rooney I think he is grossly overrated. We were very good in Defending but had no attacking quality, too many long balls. We need to keep the ball more and get more tactically minded we are way behind other European teams for this. Hodgson has a lot of work to do for the World Cup. We do have younger players in the other Leagues which could be trained up to make a much more sharper squad. I am glad Holt never played for England this time although I feel he could have done a better job than Rooney or Carrol. Instead of relying on luck for everything the England team should rely on quality. Italy deserved their win they totally outplayed us again. We keep being taught these lessons but never learn from them.Not all the players were bad but the majority were.

[Yellow Wal 314]

World class players raise their game in the biggest matches not fade into insignificance.

World class players inspire others by their performance.

World class players produce the goods when it matters.

You do not have to wonder if a world class player is a world class player, it is obvious.

Now, how many world class players have we?

[JKUIL 0]

[quote user="Brendo"]World Class means you are better than the opposition? World class means you are up there with the worlds best?imo - Rooney is easily world class. He''s just brilliant. His goal record for Utd (and not a great Utd team at that) is brilliant, and for the last few seasons he hasn''t even played as the out and out striker. Rooney scored more than Aguero this season (admittedly many penalties) but Aguero is the goal scorer/furthest man forward, in an incredible City side, where as Rooney has a worse team around him. Cole I think is the world''s best left back - making him world class.Hart is in the top 3 GK''s in the world - Hart, Casillas and Neuer for me. Not sure what order, but Hart is world class. Terry - well Terry is very good but I can think of better CB''s - not world class but very good.Gerrard world class for me. So we have 4 World class players imo.I''d really like someone to debate with me as to why Rooney is not world class. Please come at me with a balanced reason, not "he''s ugly, a tw** and gets sent off all the time" (incorrect btw)[H]

[/quote]

First of all, tell me how well you thought Rooney performed against Italy and what you felt he contributed.

[Gingerpele 0]

Rooney, A.Cole, Gerrard, Terry, Hart.

[Tim Dawson 0]

Downing gets more games than Johnson as its not hard to get into a grossly poor Liverpool team at the moment but you seriously think he is a better player than Johnson???

I would suggest staying off the superglue !! As regards Carrick i dont think he ever thought he was first choice but didnt want to be in the standby group.

Its all by the by now, England are out, very poor in general, Hodgson may be a decent bloke but a coward by his weak , pandering to the big club, big club players mentality

[Indy 3,307]

With so many world class players Brendo just how do we fail!

 

Your view of world class and mine differ, Ronaldo is world class he makes a difference to the team, inspores and motivates.

 

Rooney brings nothing more to the international team than anyone else, appart from baggage. The clear difference in mantality is clear to see on this board, those who believe he is world class because he has scored so many for united, jesus even Holty would score 25+ in that united side, the amonut of chances they create.

 

Rooney is a good premiership player, as was Shearer and Liniker.

[PurpleCanary 5,573]

[quote user="Bethnal Yellow and Green"][quote user="Jacko"]

I don''t understand how people could have expected more from England in this tournament. It was painfully obvious that for a variety of reasons we lacked quality in midfield and up front compared to the other big hitters in Europe. So Hodgson compensated for that by making us very organised and difficult to beat. They gave it absolutely everything and exceeded expectations by topping a group including a French team which on paper was certainly more talented than the England side. They drew with an Italian side, which is something the much celebrated Spanish side also did.

 

I was very sceptical when Hodgson took the England job. But he has done well in my opinion. There was a humility and honesty about this squad for once which I think people identified with. I think the next logical transition is to try and make England into a more effective counter attacking side for the tournament in Brazil. Possibly playing a 4-3-3 system utilising the pace of players like Oxlade Chamberlain. I think Hodgson has the tactical nous and intelligence to oversee this. We arent suddenly going to produce a side full of brilliant technicians inside 2 years which will allow us to maintain the lion''s share of possession in games. It took the Germans around 10 years for their radical overhaul of the game to really come to the fore. Our aim should be to do something similar. Roy Hodgson''s era should be the start of a clear and obvious plan. Rather than the make do and mend approach we have had since I have consciously followed England.

[/quote]

 

Very true, I would also argue that Germany wasn''t coming from a position as bad as England either.

 

While at youth level the biggest, fastest and strongest kids are put ahead of the more technically minded ones England will never really progress. I don''t get why people think this was a disappointment though? England''s ''par'' is qualify for tournament, get to Quarter Finals and go home. England have made the semi-final of a tournament 3 times in their history.

[/quote]

 

I know what you mean, Bethnal, but actually it''s four times - ''66 and ''90 in World Cups and ''68 and ''96 in the Euros. Obviously in ''66 England went on to the final and to win. But I do think reaching a semi-final is a good benchmark. Some comparisons to put England''s record in perspective - five for Yugoslavia (six if you include Croatia), five for Sweden, seven for Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic, and eight for The Netherlands. And those figures include some tournaments when the teams also went on to the final. In some cases to win.

There has always been an argument that England cannot compete in terms of sheer technique with some of the Latin countries, but they ought to have records as good as or better than those other countries listed, all of which have markedly smaller populations. The Netherlands has a third of the population of England, and is north European rather than Latin in terms of its footballing culture, but has twice the number of semi-final appearances.

That has to be the result of getting players at an impressionable age and working on their technique -and their tactical nous - rather than the winning at all cost ethos that apparently obtains right from junior school onwards. There is also now the increasing internationalisation of the Premier League,with homegrown players being sidelined. This is what happend in Italy in the 1950s and 1960s, to the great detriment of the national team. In this tournament you had the absurd (admittedly extreme) situation of  England calling up a goalkeeper from League Two!

[Jacko 0]

To call a world cup golden boot winner and someone with 48 goals in 80 games for England who also enjoyed success abroad with Barcelona a "good Premiership player" is simply ridiculous in my humble opinion.

[Phillip J Fry 0]

I agree with Zonal Marking in this case:

 ''Hodgson’s overall approach was right for the competition. When inheriting a side at such short notice, particularly a squad without great technical quality compared to either sides in the competition, it made sense to focus upon organisation and shape. The defensive performance wasn’t always impressive, but England didn’t lose a game. With more from the likes of Young and Rooney, England might have overachieved – although the non-performance of talented, creative attackers can’t be divorced from the use of a functional, defensive system''

and I agree with the conclusion as well:

''For Hodgson, the real test starts now. Such a reactive style of football is entirely forgiveable for a short-term project, but England have to be in a position to play a more proactive, flexible brand of football if they want to be genuine contenders, rather than organised underdogs hoping to get lucky.''

This was always going to be a tough tournament with a managerial chance just a month and half until the tournament started, the quarter-finals was a good achievement considering this, Hodgson will be judged as a coach across his performance over the next two years and (hopefully) the world cup.

[Indy 3,307]

Milan Baros won the golden boot at the last Euro''s , he''s gone onto win the europeen cup, success domestically in England, Czech Rep and Turkey, but I don''t class him as World Class, Perhaps we should, Liniker and Baros are world class!

[Gingerpele 0]

I''ve said before, if England don''t have any World Class players, then very few are World Class...

England aren''t all that wonderful, a lot of hard workers, with very few stand out talents. Rooney should be one of those, but for England he just doesn''t play as well as he does for Man.U (and no, thats not just based on his goals, watch him and see how much he does for the team...). Even wide men like Young and Walcott often fail to shine.

Basically, we don''t have a Messi, Ronaldo, Iniesta, Ozil, Xavi, Pirlo who can win us the game single handedly. Not at international level anyway. Rooney does do it for Man.U.

There is definitely more emphasis on hard work, and team work than individual skill, but were not that good at that either. If we played as a very attacking side, with the likes of Walcott, Wellbeck, Rooney, Ox, Wilshere, A.Cole and Walker or Richards in the side, I think we could do quite well. But England managers obviously don''t see that as an option.

I think with a squad based around these players for WC qualifiers and the WC we could get to the semi-final at least: Hart, Ruddy, Stockdale?, Walker, Richards, Jones/Smalling, Terry?, Cahill, Lescott, A.Cole, Baines, Rodwell, Wilshere, Cleverly, Parker, Ox, Walcott, Sturridge, A.Johnson, Welbeck, Rooney, Carroll. Personally, I see more talent in our attack minded players, the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Milner, Barry are decent enough, but we don''t play well enough with them in the team. We need attack minded players with freedom to attack.

The premiership is evolving. Who actually plays like England? Man.C don''t, Man.U don''t, Chelsea only did in CL, Arsenal don''t, Newcastle don''t, we don''t, Swansea don''t, Liverpool don''t. There is lots of variety in our leagues football, adaptability is maybe what were best at. But we have plenty of attacking, passing, good football. Why isn''t that being shown on the international stage?

(Maybe its because, the English players just aren''t good enough, and are seriously helped out by the foreign players. My Grandad said that ever since Ballack left and Essien being constantly injured, Lampard hasn''t looked half the player, and until second half of this past season that was almost certainly true. Are players like Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, Rooney, Walcott, all of them, carried by the non-English players? We also don''t have many English managers in our top league, which also limits the number of english coaches at the top as well.)

[Gingerpele 0]

Just out of interest, what young players would you like to see in the England squad? And playing in the WC qualifiers?

I think our best few are Walker, Jones and/or Smalling, Wilshere, Rodwell and Ox.

[lake district canary 0]

Rooney - on top form - is probably one of the best players in the world.  The trouble is he hasn''t been on top form for his country in eight years. Even at Manure he isn''t often on top form these days.  Yet he should  at his age be approaching his peak.   He looks to me ''burnt out''.    He certainly hasn''t performed this last week. 

 

 

 

[Shack Attack 0]

I''m sure this has already been covered in this thread but the reason England continue to fail in major tournaments is down to our football culture. A high tempo, physical game based on territory rather than possession is never going to succeed in international football. People are marvelling at the performance of Pirlo last night but when we had a player like him in Scholes we ended up forcing him into international retirement so Gerrard and Lampard could play together.English football is hugely popular because of the tempo and the unpredictability but this is at the expense of the control you need to succeed in the international game. English fans look at Spain and see a boring team and whilst they are well within their rights to hold this opinion what they should also be seeing is a team in control. We don''t like that in our players which is why we as a country have traditionally produced a never ending supply of wingers who occasionally thrill but lack consistency, box to box midfielders and all action centre forwards. These types of players thrive on chaos whereas players like Pirlo and Xavi bring control and calmness to the game.Unless we fundamentally change our footballing culture and the way our kids are coached then nothing will really change. There is no point in blaming the manager or the players as they are simply not equipped to do the job. What Roy Hodgson has achieved with this group of players in the space of a few weeks is well over par (Harry Redknapp would not have even got us out of the group I don''t think) and as disappointing as it is to lose to a fairly average Italian side I don''t see who how we could have done any better. The only mild criticism I would make is that he should have withdrawn Young rather than Milner last night but I''m not sure it would have made a huge amount of difference.

[PurpleCanary 5,573]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]I''m sure this has already been covered in this thread but the reason England continue to fail in major tournaments is down to our football culture. A high tempo, physical game based on territory rather than possession is never going to succeed in international football. People are marvelling at the performance of Pirlo last night but when we had a player like him in Scholes we ended up forcing him into international retirement so Gerrard and Lampard could play together.

English football is hugely popular because of the tempo and the unpredictability but this is at the expense of the control you need to succeed in the international game. English fans look at Spain and see a boring team and whilst they are well within their rights to hold this opinion what they should also be seeing is a team in control. We don''t like that in our players which is why we as a country have traditionally produced a never ending supply of wingers who occasionally thrill but lack consistency, box to box midfielders and all action centre forwards. These types of players thrive on chaos whereas players like Pirlo and Xavi bring control and calmness to the game.

Unless we fundamentally change our footballing culture and the way our kids are coached then nothing will really change. There is no point in blaming the manager or the players as they are simply not equipped to do the job. What Roy Hodgson has achieved with this group of players in the space of a few weeks is well over par (Harry Redknapp would not have even got us out of the group I don''t think) and as disappointing as it is to lose to a fairly average Italian side I don''t see who how we could have done any better. The only mild criticism I would make is that he should have withdrawn Young rather than Milner last night but I''m not sure it would have made a huge amount of difference.
[/quote]

 

Quite.

[Indy 3,307]

The funny thing is, back in the 60''s, 70''s early 80'' we blamed the fact that other teams were technically better.

 

Through the 80''s we had players who were gifted yet overlooked to play the likes of Wilkins who only passed the ball sideways or back!

 

In the 90''s & 2000''s we blamed the inlfux of overseas players killing our talented players, but we have had some great young players benefitting from playing with these players, Becks, Scholes, Owen to name a few. We should have been on par with Germany and Spain, but why are we not! Why keep blaming things, is it not just deep routed in the English players to fail?

 

The future should look good when you see what we have on the horizon, we have a shed load of good youg players who need to be nertured.

 

The core problem must be deeper than we know because it''s nothing new for England to fail but this lot appart from three or four players did nothing, whimper out of a tournament.

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="Indy"]Milan Baros won the golden boot at the last Euro''s , he''s gone onto win the europeen cup, success domestically in England, Czech Rep and Turkey, but I don''t class him as World Class, Perhaps we should, Liniker and Baros are world class![/quote]

Stop putting words into my mouth Indy. I am merely disputing your claim he is just "a good Premiership footballer." Lineker has scored goals where ever he has been. I think if you ask most people scoring 281 goals in 568 games at a rate of in 1 in 2 is the bench mark of an outstanding player rather just a good one. To compare Linker to Milan Baros when he hasn''t had anything like the club career Lineker has had is farcical. You are just making yourself look silly. I have never stated anywhere that I deemed Lineker to be world class. As we have established about 5 different people on this thread alone have a differing interpretation of what that is and they have also been perfectly justifiable opinions.

[BroadstairsR 2,186]

I think it was all over dreadful and whether the reasons or excuses stand up to scrutiny is debateable. We had a dull draw against a weakish French side, a hopeful Walcott poke got us out of prison against an average Swedish side and Ukraine gave us the run-around for much of that game. I think tht the first 20-25 minutes against Ukraine was the most inept display that I can remember from an England side in many a year. In short, we got out of the group very luckily. 

 

Finally, with the likes of Bobby Charlton predicting that we could win the tournament, we were out-classed by an un-reknown Italian side who will probably get tonked by the Germans. The fact that we seemed to be playing for a 50-50 shoot-out in the end says it all.

 

In my opinion Hodgson made a bad situation, caused by our lack of class, certain injuries and traumatic build-up, worse by some poor and unimaginative selections and by a conviction that, by team spirit and a certain commaraderie, we could defend our way to success. He did a decent job, but then so did Sven and Capello.

 

I remain fairly confident in the man to get us into reasonable shape for the World Cup, as he seems aware of both our strengths and our weaknesses to the extent that we will be efficient at least.

 

There is a massive job to do in the coming two years. I do not want to see the likes of Carroll, Young or Downing put on an England shirt again and a few others are doubtful. They are just not quite good enough when amongst the big boys.Terry, Cole and Gerrard would likely be over the top and Rooney seems to be going backwards at international level. We will virtually need a new team as I only really fancy Hart to remain if some of the youngsters, Wellbeck, Ox-Chamberlaine fail to progress. Theo should be there or thereabouts, whilst Wilshire is a promise. Micah Richards deserved a look in this time round and may well the next time.

 

What price a couple of Nodge players in the future reckoning, all things going well? Is Howson English?

[PurpleCanary 5,573]

[quote user="Jacko"]

[quote user="Indy"]Milan Baros won the golden boot at the last Euro''s , he''s gone onto win the europeen cup, success domestically in England, Czech Rep and Turkey, but I don''t class him as World Class, Perhaps we should, Liniker and Baros are world class![/quote]

Stop putting words into my mouth Indy. I am merely disputing your claim he is just "a good Premiership footballer." Lineker has scored goals where ever he has been. I think if you ask most people scoring 281 goals in 568 games at a rate of in 1 in 2 is the bench mark of an outstanding player rather just a good one. To compare Linker to Milan Baros when he hasn''t had anything like the club career Lineker has had is farcical. You are just making yourself look silly. I have never stated anywhere that I deemed Lineker to be world class. As we have established about 5 different people on this thread alone have a differing interpretation of what that is and they have also been perfectly justifiable opinions.

[/quote]

 

A useful definition I came across years ago was this, in terms of European players. Would you genuinely consider them at any particular time for inclusion in a European Select Eleven? If so, even if they didn''t make the final eleven, then you could regard them as world class.

[Indy 3,307]

Sorry but Baros has a European Cup Winners Medal, scored 41 times in 93 games for the Czech republic, you asked what I class as a world class player and you class Liniker above a player who has a similar record and because you don''t like the fact I used Baros as an example, I don''t class Liniker as a World Class player do you? He''s a good International player as is Baros, and the list could go on with players from other countries!

 

Game changing players are WORLD CLASS we don''t have them, we have 5 or 6 International class players and the rest make up the numbers.

 

Here''s one for you Van Persie World Class, better than Liniker and Rooney or not?

[Gingerpele 0]

Van Persie isn''t world class.

He''s only really had one outstanding season. He''s always been good, but with a few injuries, playing second fiddle at international level to RVN, even at Arsenal for a couple of seasons (or more). He''s always had a very good goal scoring record, but his all round play isn''t that fantastic. He also misses a lot of chances (because he gets so many?). RVP was poor in Euro 2012, only scored once i believe at the last World Cup, despite playing every game.

I''d actually say Lineker was probably fairly equal to what RVP is now. Rooney is a different player, he''s got more to his game than RVP (RVP as an out and out striker anyway, Van Persie can play out wide). Again fairly equal. But i''d probably rank Rooney higher than Van Persie overall. And I bet if both player were to move this summer, Rooney would go for double what Van Persie will/would. (although age and contract length obviously come into it, i''d say RVP at 26, with same contract length wouldn''t demand same fee as Rooney though)

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Tim Dawson"]Downing gets more games than Johnson as its not hard to get into a grossly poor Liverpool team at the moment but you seriously think he is a better player than Johnson??? I would suggest staying off the superglue !! As regards Carrick i dont think he ever thought he was first choice but didnt want to be in the standby group. Its all by the by now, England are out, very poor in general, Hodgson may be a decent bloke but a coward by his weak , pandering to the big club, big club players mentality[/quote]

I said Downing plays his position better than Johnson. Sorry that was a bit of football lingo that may have gone over your head.

 

How has Roy "pandered" to the big clubs? He''s just tried to pick the best players available and funnily enough the best players often play for the best and biggest clubs.

 

[George Smiley 3]

Maybe someone could explain exactly what is happening at grassroots football?  I hear stories of dads (thinking that their offspring is going to be the next Rooney"screaming at their kids to "Hoof  it "Get stuck in " .abusing the ref etc..Blokes over a certain age  who never made it fancing themselves as a bit of a Mourinho by picking the biggest/fastest kids over the technically better smaller ones for a win at all costs attitude.Kids who collect worthless trophies/medals  like smarties before they have even  mastered the basics .Naturally when it is obvious that the kid/now a teenager is not going to make it  they lose  interest and don''t bother to watch them anymore.Am i right ? Come on Dads, when you take your son to footy training , maybe you should check the credentials of the clown  taking the training and if you are not happy with what you see then i suggest packing them off to a German/Dutch soccer summer camp where they can learn how to develop a first touch and pass a ball.

[Tim Dawson 0]

Nothing went over my head at all, if you want a defensive winger with no pace ( wingers should have pace, unless that went over your head ) Johnson is tricky, fairly quick and scores goals from outside the box.

Milner and Downing give you good cover for your full backs but offer little going forward, goals win games and id rather see us going for it than playing negative football that bores to death, of course its all opinion and neither of us can ever be proven right or wrong........

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]Van Persie isn''t world class.

He''s only really had one outstanding season. He''s always been good, but with a few injuries, playing second fiddle at international level to RVN, even at Arsenal for a couple of seasons (or more). He''s always had a very good goal scoring record, but his all round play isn''t that fantastic. He also misses a lot of chances (because he gets so many?). RVP was poor in Euro 2012, only scored once i believe at the last World Cup, despite playing every game.

I''d actually say Lineker was probably fairly equal to what RVP is now. Rooney is a different player, he''s got more to his game than RVP (RVP as an out and out striker anyway, Van Persie can play out wide). Again fairly equal. But i''d probably rank Rooney higher than Van Persie overall. And I bet if both player were to move this summer, Rooney would go for double what Van Persie will/would. (although age and contract length obviously come into it, i''d say RVP at 26, with same contract length wouldn''t demand same fee as Rooney though)[/quote]

As usual I agree with Gingerpele. The thing I would add in reply to you Indy. Is that club and international football are inevitably interlinked when a player is judged. You cant ignore club form. I stand by what I have said. Lineker was an outstanding football not just a good one and to compare him to Milan Baros when you put their respective club records together is frankly scandalous.

[T 190]

[quote user="renegadecanary"]Maybe someone could explain exactly what is happening at grassroots football?  I hear stories of dads (thinking that their offspring is going to be the next Rooney"screaming at their kids to "Hoof  it "Get stuck in " .abusing the ref etc..Blokes over a certain age  who never made it fancing themselves as a bit of a Mourinho by picking the biggest/fastest kids over the technically better smaller ones for a win at all costs attitude.Kids who collect worthless trophies/medals  like smarties before they have even  mastered the basics .Naturally when it is obvious that the kid/now a teenager is not going to make it  they lose  interest and don''t bother to watch them anymore.Am i right ? Come on Dads, when you take your son to footy training , maybe you should check the credentials of the clown  taking the training and if you are not happy with what you see then i suggest packing them off to a German/Dutch soccer summer camp where they can learn how to develop a first touch and pass a ball.
[/quote]

Fully agree. Parent''s are the worse nightmare when you are trying to coach kids sport. A lot of them are absolutely clueless to be honest. All the pros today seem to agree that we have no chance unless youth coaching improves. Somehow we need to get more qualified sport coaches in this country. It is expensive and time consuming to become a sports coach and makes no financial sense but it is more personally rewarding than the day job. Too often in this country we just blame other people rather than do anything ourselves to improve the situation.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="Jacko"]

I don''t understand how people could have expected more from England in this tournament. It was painfully obvious that for a variety of reasons we lacked quality in midfield and up front compared to the other big hitters in Europe. So Hodgson compensated for that by making us very organised and difficult to beat. They gave it absolutely everything and exceeded expectations by topping a group including a French team which on paper was certainly more talented than the England side. They drew with an Italian side, which is something the much celebrated Spanish side also did.

 

I was very sceptical when Hodgson took the England job. But he has done well in my opinion. There was a humility and honesty about this squad for once which I think people identified with. I think the next logical transition is to try and make England into a more effective counter attacking side for the tournament in Brazil. Possibly playing a 4-3-3 system utilising the pace of players like Oxlade Chamberlain. I think Hodgson has the tactical nous and intelligence to oversee this. We arent suddenly going to produce a side full of brilliant technicians inside 2 years which will allow us to maintain the lion''s share of possession in games. It took the Germans around 10 years for their radical overhaul of the game to really come to the fore. Our aim should be to do something similar. Roy Hodgson''s era should be the start of a clear and obvious plan. Rather than the make do and mend approach we have had since I have consciously followed England.

[/quote]

 

He hasn''t. He is defensive and one dimensional (perhaps two dimensional, either 4-2-2 (preferred option) or 4-2-1-1). Having visited WBA earlier in the season, I was amazed by the fans'' opinion of him. Contrary to popular reports, he seemed to be universally disliked and criticised for the type of football the team was playing. Almost to a man, they felt that he didn''t really know what he was doing other than organising well, defending rigidly and putting in plenty of effort. This will only get you so far as has been admirably demonstrated in the last couple of weeks. I know the optiuons with England were limited but he is most definitely not the man, in my opinion, to take them to new heights.

[Brendo 0]

[quote user="Al Catraz"][quote user="Brendo"]World Class means you are better than the opposition? World class means you are up there with the worlds best?imo - Rooney is easily world class. He''s just brilliant. His goal record for Utd (and not a great Utd team at that) is brilliant, and for the last few seasons he hasn''t even played as the out and out striker. Rooney scored more than Aguero this season (admittedly many penalties) but Aguero is the goal scorer/furthest man forward, in an incredible City side, where as Rooney has a worse team around him. Cole I think is the world''s best left back - making him world class.Hart is in the top 3 GK''s in the world - Hart, Casillas and Neuer for me. Not sure what order, but Hart is world class. Terry - well Terry is very good but I can think of better CB''s - not world class but very good.Gerrard world class for me. So we have 4 World class players imo.I''d really like someone to debate with me as to why Rooney is not world class. Please come at me with a balanced reason, not "he''s ugly, a tw** and gets sent off all the time" (incorrect btw)[H]

[/quote]

First of all, tell me how well you thought Rooney performed against Italy and what you felt he contributed.[/quote]Sure. More than happy to:Rooney had a poor game vs Italy, no worse than Welbeck (who has had a poor tournament)Now please tell me how Messi performed vs Chelsea in the semis?Oh right, didn''t play well. So therefore Messi isn''t world class either?[:)]

[Gingerpele 0]

Messi did play well, created plenty of chances. Fabregas, Busquets, Sanchez just couldn''t convert.