back to 4-5-1 on Saturday please!!!

[Baldyboy 0]

we have to go back to 4-5-1 against Bolton surely with Bennett and Pilks wide and Fox in front of the back four!!Dont care who is up top Holt or Morison as both can play well in this formation. Also please put Nayghton back to right back and Drury or Tierney at Left back Lambo!!! thoughts people?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,805]

We played one up front at home to Fulham and Blackburn and got 2 points from 6. Its wasnt until we introduced a second striker in these matches that we forced a draw from them.

[Gingerpele 0]

It wasn''t the diamond that was the problem.

Why is everyone trying to simplify things in that way? EVERYTHING was wrong last night, everyone (pretty much) was poor, no team work, no decent passing movement, nothing. With Fox, Surman and Hoolahan the diamond works very well. Maybe not with Morison and Holt up top together.

We played 4-5-1 against WBA in the cup, that wasn''t exactly the best performance of the season was it?

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]It wasn''t the diamond that was the problem. Why is everyone trying to simplify things in that way? EVERYTHING was wrong last night, everyone (pretty much) was poor, no team work, no decent passing movement, nothing. With Fox, Surman and Hoolahan the diamond works very well. Maybe not with Morison and Holt up top together. We played 4-5-1 against WBA in the cup, that wasn''t exactly the best performance of the season was it?[/quote]

 

Possibly not, GP, but we did win! I am a broken record on this but I am convinced that against all but the very worst team in the PL we cannot start with Hoolahan and Holt and Morison. The two times we have got totally outplayed this season (as opposed to just being beaten) were against Spurs and last night. And both times Lambert used that trio in a too attacking formation. Even only half-decent teams will just kill you in midfield in that case.

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]It wasn''t the diamond that was the problem. Why is everyone trying to simplify things in that way? EVERYTHING was wrong last night, everyone (pretty much) was poor, no team work, no decent passing movement, nothing. With Fox, Surman and Hoolahan the diamond works very well. Maybe not with Morison and Holt up top together. We played 4-5-1 against WBA in the cup, that wasn''t exactly the best performance of the season was it?[/quote]

Bolton are not very strong on the goal scoring bit, and I think we need to throw everything at them and go with 4-4-2 with Fox just behind the front 2 Pilks and Bennet  on the wings  

[Beauseant 0]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]It wasn''t the diamond that was the problem. Why is everyone trying to simplify things in that way? EVERYTHING was wrong last night, everyone (pretty much) was poor, no team work, no decent passing movement, nothing. With Fox, Surman and Hoolahan the diamond works very well. Maybe not with Morison and Holt up top together. We played 4-5-1 against WBA in the cup, that wasn''t exactly the best performance of the season was it?[/quote]

 

Possibly not, GP, but we did win! I am a broken record on this but I am convinced that against all but the very worst team in the PL we cannot start with Hoolahan and Holt and Morison. The two times we have got totally outplayed this season (as opposed to just being beaten) were against Spurs and last night. And both times Lambert used that trio in a too attacking formation. Even only half-decent teams will just kill you in midfield in that case.

[/quote]

 

Whilst you wouldn''t know a great goalkeeper if he leapt up and bit you on the bum  [;)], I totally agree with you on that point PC. Control of midfield is key and we were constantly overrun last night and, as you point out, against Spurs.

[Gingerpele 0]

Even when we play 5 in midfield, we still don''t ''dominate'' the middle, thats not how we play.

Surman, Fox and Wes I think is our best midfield, with who ever else (I would go for Johnson, but perhaps on the right hand side of the diamond he isn''t as effective?). It means we can play the long ball to Holt and/or Morison. Can play quick counter attacks, or we can pass it around in attacking areas well.

Jackson also offers a different dynamic to the team, his eagerness to run into through balls, will eventually create chances. I''m hoping Vaughan can come in, and do that, with a bit more strength and arial ability, I see him as a much more all-round striker. Although he could be rubbish, or get injured agin...

Fox can''t win the ball, he doesn''t appear to know how to. Johnson only wins the ball when he''s really up for it, and god only knows what is going on with Crofts, at times he''s looked good, but a lot of the time he''s just absent. Bennett and Pilks are very good wingers, even at this level. But Bennett doesn''t use his pace effectively I don''t think (seems much more keen on passing it around players, rather than running past players), Pilks despite being slower, actually does beat his man and get crosses in. I think a flat 4-4-2 with Pilks, Johnson, Fox and Bennett could work very well with Holt and Morison up front. We must have played that way already?

I''m not sure 4-5-1 is our best formation, I don''t see the point in the two wingers, if were only going to have one man in the box, when we have two great headers of the ball in Holt and Moro, If were playing two wingers, why not just 4-4-2? But of course Lambert knows best, and last night was just a small blip, and I have confidence we will bounce back against Bolton.

[Aggy 766]

Bolton are one of the very worst teams in the division!

As said above - we don''t really dominate sides even with 5 in midfield. I actually quite like the diamond, but I think we need Fox in there to string everything together.

Unfortunately, last night I don''t think it would have mattered what formation we were playing, or which personnel were picked, we just didn''t turn up.

I would normally be tempted to go with the diamond, but I wouldn''t be surprised to see the 451 with Morison up front on his own. Difficult to choose between Holt and Moro, but I think Lambert might go with Morison this time.

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

[quote user="Beauseant"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]It wasn''t the diamond that was the problem. Why is everyone trying to simplify things in that way? EVERYTHING was wrong last night, everyone (pretty much) was poor, no team work, no decent passing movement, nothing. With Fox, Surman and Hoolahan the diamond works very well. Maybe not with Morison and Holt up top together. We played 4-5-1 against WBA in the cup, that wasn''t exactly the best performance of the season was it?[/quote]

 

Possibly not, GP, but we did win! I am a broken record on this but I am convinced that against all but the very worst team in the PL we cannot start with Hoolahan and Holt and Morison. The two times we have got totally outplayed this season (as opposed to just being beaten) were against Spurs and last night. And both times Lambert used that trio in a too attacking formation. Even only half-decent teams will just kill you in midfield in that case.

[/quote]

 

Whilst you wouldn''t know a great goalkeeper if he leapt up and bit you on the bum  [;)], I totally agree with you on that point PC. Control of midfield is key and we were constantly overrun last night and, as you point out, against Spurs.

[/quote]

 

Actually, GP, Ruddy did try to bite me on the bum but got his positioning all wrong and bit my pet hamster instead...[:P][;)]

 

In the interests of fairness and accuracy I should add that we didn''t start with Hoolahan, Holt and Morison against Man City, and got totally outplayed in that game as well, but perhaps Man City are a bit of a special case.

[Gingerpele 0]

I would like to add, that Spurs probably wouldn''t have outplayed/classed us anyway. They were obviously having a good day, which was possibly helped by our formation, but I think they were probably going to play well what ever team we put out, and Spurs playing well pretty much equals win.

[Canary_on_the Trent 0]

Last night backed up why I''ve been calling for a more rounded holding player in midfield.

Lambert clearly wanted a more robust midfield without Fox who isn''t the strongest or most mobile. However with Johnson & Crofts together we just went nowhere in possession when Sunderland pressed us.

Howson is a good player but likes to play further up the field.

Its interesting to see how Korey Smith develops at Barnsley, he likes to get forward but defensively & athletically he is stronger than Fox whilst being more comfortable in possession than Johnson or Crofts.

[PurpleCanary 5,592]

[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="Beauseant"][quote user="PurpleCanary"]

[quote user="Gingerpele"]It wasn''t the diamond that was the problem. Why is everyone trying to simplify things in that way? EVERYTHING was wrong last night, everyone (pretty much) was poor, no team work, no decent passing movement, nothing. With Fox, Surman and Hoolahan the diamond works very well. Maybe not with Morison and Holt up top together. We played 4-5-1 against WBA in the cup, that wasn''t exactly the best performance of the season was it?[/quote]

 

Possibly not, GP, but we did win! I am a broken record on this but I am convinced that against all but the very worst team in the PL we cannot start with Hoolahan and Holt and Morison. The two times we have got totally outplayed this season (as opposed to just being beaten) were against Spurs and last night. And both times Lambert used that trio in a too attacking formation. Even only half-decent teams will just kill you in midfield in that case.

[/quote]

 

Whilst you wouldn''t know a great goalkeeper if he leapt up and bit you on the bum  [;)], I totally agree with you on that point PC. Control of midfield is key and we were constantly overrun last night and, as you point out, against Spurs.

[/quote]

 

Actually, GP, Ruddy did try to bite me on the bum but got his positioning all wrong and bit my pet hamster instead...[:P][;)]

 

In the interests of fairness and accuracy I should add that we didn''t start with Hoolahan, Holt and Morison against Man City, and got totally outplayed in that game as well, but perhaps Man City are a bit of a special case.

[/quote]

 

Oh gawd. Senior moment. Getting my GPs and my Beaus mixed up. Apologies to both...[;)]

[GJP 79]

[quote user="Aggy"]Bolton are one of the very worst teams in the division!  [/quote]

Bolton have only been beaten twice in their last 10 games.

 

Their last 2 league games have seen them beat Liverpool 3-1 and draw 0-0 with Arsenal. Inbetween those 2 games they knocked Swansea out of the FA cup.

 

Obviously that run of form is coming to an end at Carrow Road but it won''t be easy!

[lake district canary 0]

4-5-1 my backside.

 

Simply put on a team that will be up for the match and go for it. 

 

Morison gives the ball away too much for my liking as does Hoolahan at times. He certainly struggled to find space yeaterday. 

 

Give Jackson and Holt the striking role with Vaughn hopefully to come on at some point.

 

We have too many players who give the ball away.   Surman, Fox, Pilks, Benett, all good passers - put them on from the start and be positive.

 

Ask Ayala to pass forward more. More often than not he passes to Whitbread who then lobs the ball forward.   It should be the other way round. Whitbread to Ayala and Ayala to pass the ball forward.   If decent passes come out of defence, the midfield has more chance and then the strikers (ones who have a good first touch)  can take it on from there.  

 

I like Morison - but he is getting found out more and more - defenders realise he hasn''t got the skill to cause them problems, although he can score a good goal if the service is there  (ie: such as Holt crossing for him - as at wba/av).   

 

I think if we stay in the division, which still looks likely, hard decisions will have to be made about some of the present squad if we are to develop.

 

 

 

[Aggy 766]

I''m not saying it will be easy GJP. But that comment was in response to Purple saying that we should only play the diamond against the very worst teams in the division - if we can''t count a side who are 17th as one of the very worst in the division, then we''re not going to be using the diamond very much!

[Yellow Rider 0]

[quote user="baldyboy"]we have to go back to 4-5-1 against Bolton surely with Bennett and Pilks wide and Fox in front of the back four!!Dont care who is up top Holt or Morison as both can play well in this formation. Also please put Nayghton back to right back and Drury or Tierney at Left back Lambo!!! thoughts people?
[/quote]

4-5-1 is not suitable for us especially at home v Bolton which is a match we need to win to keep them right in the relegation mix. We don''t  have the personnel to play that system in a positive way. We lack midfielders who can get into the box on a regular basis and score.

Fox and Johnson are rarely seen in the opposition box and never look like scoring. Crofts can do that role in lower leagues but not in the Premiership. Surman although scoring a couple recently does not have the pace or engine to support the lone striker to any meaningful effect. Wes does get forward but again has found goals very difficult to come by in this league. We have seen precious little of Bennet (unfortunately) so that only leaves Pilkington. Whilst he has scored some goals his wing role restricts the real support he can give a lone striker.

When we play 4-5-1 at home we look woefully impotent and it needs the introduction of Holt and or Jackson (home v Fulham) to make any difference.      

Another glaring example was against Arsenal when PL paid them far too much respect instead of getting at their defence which as we all know is vunerable. Morrison toiled alone for most of the game and whenever a ball was played into the box there was one (at the most two) yellow shirts v 4 or 5 red!!

I also found it very strange that Barnie, Tierney and Drury all failed to make the bench last night leaving only an obviously un matchfit Ward as the only sub defender! Whilst Naughton is a damn good right back, we should play a left footed player at left back! Either Drury or Tierney could have given us some proper width going forward - anyone know if both were injured??   

 

[Shack Attack 0]

Every formation has it''s own strengths and weaknesses as we have found out this year. But it is the players you put in that formation that decide how it works rather than the formation itself. 4-5-1 is not negative any more than 4-4-2 is an inherently attack minded formation. It is all about the players within the system and their individual roles.

 

When we play 4-5-1 (or 4-4-1-1, 4-1-4-1, 4-2-3-1. Take your pick [:D]) the problem we seem to have is that Steve Morison can look isolated. The games against Blackburn and Liverpool were good examples of this where it was the addition of Grant Holt which helped secure a point on both occasions. When we are playing one up to we need Wes Hoolahan to get up close to Morison to stop him getting isolated but because we lack a deep lying midfielder who can control a game we still struggle to keep possession. This leads to Hoolahan dropping deeper to get the ball (and to help out defensively) so that Morison is often left up front on his own with no support. If we wanted to keep playing this way we could have done with signing a strong central midfielder who can win the ball deep and keep it and screen the defence (as I have said before a cut price Scott Parker) to play alongside Fox in the centre. This would greatly improve our ball retention which would in turn allow Hoolahan (and Pilkington and Bennett) to play further forward and support Morison.

 

When we play the diamond we have problems against teams with any real width. Wednesday nights game was a good example of this as McClean and Larsson took up positions very wide when Sunderland were in possession to exploit our narrow midfield. With Sessegnon dropping deep Surman and/or Crofts were often dragged into central areas to help out leaving huge gaps out wide for Sunderland to exploit. Wanting two strikers in the team to be more attacking is all well and good but Wednesday showed that it is pointless if don''t get enough of the ball. Morison and Holt had one decent chance each with Morison in particular looking increasingly pissed off with the lack of service they were getting. Morison and Holt up front was working well when both were scoring regularly as the lack of control in midfield was offset by the increased goal threat (particularly from set pieces) but now Grant Holt has gone seven PL matches without a goal. Questions have to be asked about whether we''re getting enough back from almost surrendering the midfield.

 

When we play 4-5-1 and don''t win the solution for some is always an extra striker and when we play 4-4-2 and get overrun in midfield the solution is always to remove a striker. Both formations have their faults (or rather the players we have don''t always fit into those formations without causing problems) but one is not inherently more attacking than the other.

[ZLF 276]

4-2-3-1 for meTierney in for R martin

Fox and BJ at the base

Surman and Pilkington wide,  with Wes starting just behind Wilbraham (based on weds he is the form striker) or morison

That gives us a solid base to build from with players who can pass the ball and provide some width.

 

If thats not working move to a 442 after 60 mins (max) with holt coming on for the worst performer in the middle (fox/BJ/Wes) to retain the width;  introduce Bennett either left or right if surman or pilkington not firing.  Jackson to be introduced for the last 15 mins or so if chasing the game, wilbraham if things looking good as he can hold the ball up.  

[Nuff Said 5,191]

Come on guys! 4-4-2 or 4-5-1, it''s what Bolton will be expecting. Let''s think outside the box. 2-2-6 should do it.

[Nuff Said 5,191]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

4-2-3-1 for meTierney in for R martin

Fox and BJ at the base

Surman and Pilkington wide,  with Wes starting just behind Wilbraham (based on weds he is the form striker) or morison

That gives us a solid base to build from with players who can pass the ball and provide some width.

 If thats not working move to a 442 after 60 mins (max) with holt coming on for the worst performer in the middle (fox/BJ/Wes) to retain the width;  introduce Bennett either left or right if surman or pilkington not firing.  Jackson to be introduced for the last 15 mins or so if chasing the game, wilbraham if things looking good as he can hold the ball up.  

[/quote]Actually, that sounds pretty good to me. (Apart from Wilbraham coming on to replace Wilbraham [;)])

[grefstad 0]

Johnson and Crofts proved both on Wednesday that they are not good enough.

Too far off the pace, too far away from the opposition, not tackling.

4-4-2 for me, with wingers.

Bennet, Pilks, with Surman and Wes central. Flat 4-4-2

Morison and Jackson up top, Holt and Wilkbram subs.

Tierney on on leftback if fit, Naughton on to the right.

Martin rested (need a few games off now, not been good in his positioning of late, after moving to rb).

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="grefstad"]

Bennet, Pilks, with Surman and Wes central. Flat 4-4-2

[/quote]

 

I''m all for prioritising skill and technique over brawn but that midfield would get a right shoeing by pretty much any Premier League side. Even Bolton.