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cockers85

Stop Gunn bashing

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[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Took over a team 2 points above the drop zone and took it to 5 points adrift
Shipped out Lupoli and brought back Cureton
Most of the players at the club were his finds anyway he was head of player rcruitment
Lost more must win matches than most people have hot dinners
Is tactically inept
Could not get HIS team to play for HIM had as many no shows as the previous two managers
After match interviews consisted of theres x amount of games left we have to keep hoping
Bryan Gunn is not a manager and should go back to putting posters up instead of making this club look like a laughing stock .

[/quote]

 

Like I said, he took over a team that was nosediving, in freefall. IMO, had Gunn not taken over at the point he did we would have been relegated well before Charlton. Anyway, it''s a fatuous discussion because you have your opinion and I have mine and neither of us is going to change them. My only disappointment is that so many on here are not capable of giving their own constructive reasoning as to why they have a poor opinion of Gunn, instead they resort to plain and simple unpleasantness and nastiness. That''s me done for the day.

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NX Canary. They were not his team at all. Roeder was certainly not dictated to in any matter let alone the transfer market. While Carney on the right and Shackell on the left were certainly questionable, this is why the coaching staff behind him need to be experienced to support him. But he has also shown he can sign good players and the football improved under him. Fans always question the managers decision, go to the Liverpool boards and see how many are questioning Rafa! Personally I''ve seen enough to convince me he is the right man. Can''t buy hunger, pride and passion like that. And quite frankly, restoring those three traits is exactly what we need!

I also believe he has his badges. Am I wrong?

-Bigus

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as much as BG is a city legend, he was never the right choice, other examples of players who took charge of ''their'' club on a short term basis like Alan Shearer and Trevor Brooking never really pan out the way they wanted to.For many people Gunn is the target purely because he is the manager, as chosen by the board so instantly puts himself in the firing line. Him saying he wants to take charge next season is partly due to this being his fault and him wanting to rectify this because of his love of the club. I don''t agree with him getting the job for next season but what can you do if he does? Suddenly stop supporting the side? Maybe. But how is that proactive. And I just don''t get the bashing of the 18,000 season ticket holders, its not their fault if they want to support their team and don''t want the club to go under is it? I myself though am running away to Japan and shall watch what I can from there hoping that everything that happens moves us up.

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Simples! A 25% win rate will see us relegated again next season. Give it up now before it''s too late.

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[quote user="Lord Snooty"]

If he is confirmed in the job and is given a contract for the whole of next season then he will prove to be a good manager for us. Mark my words.

[/quote]

If thats the case, he won''t see October out.

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[quote user="canaryspike7"]Couldnt be bothered to read your long post. Gunn Out!!![/quote]

You should read it, it''s actually quite interesting. Perhaps you merely lack the attention span to read through it all?

Seriously, whatever people''s attitude on an NCFC situation this kind of post infuriates me. You may not agree with the subject, but why bother putting that couldn''t be bothered to read a well thought out post? I just find it incredibly pointless and also quite rude considering the post was well thought out and was created in order to try and generate some debate.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

[quote user="Bigus"]His points per game total was better than Roeder''s in less games and he had no time to build his own team.[/quote]

Yeah, by 0.09 points.

[/quote]

Well spotted Graham, it was of course worse or equally bad at best.

Gunny is a lovely bloke and great goalkeeper, but is way out of his depth and is only making a rod for his own back.

Once he is given the job the abuse he is receiving now will only be the tip of the iceberg compared to next season.

Really can''t see why he wants to do this to himself.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

[quote user="Bigus"]His points per game total was better than Roeder''s in less games and he had no time to build his own team.[/quote]

Yeah, by 0.09 points.

[/quote]

Well spotted Graham, it was of course worse or equally bad at best.

Gunny is a lovely bloke and great goalkeeper, but is way out of his depth and is only making a rod for his own back.

Once he is given the job the abuse he is receiving now will only be the tip of the iceberg compared to next season.

Really can''t see why he wants to do this to himself.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

[quote user="Bigus"]His points per game total was better than Roeder''s in less games and he had no time to build his own team.[/quote]

Yeah, by 0.09 points.

[/quote]

Well spotted Graham, it was of course worse or equally bad at best.

Gunny is a lovely bloke and great goalkeeper, but is way out of his depth and is only making a rod for his own back.

Once he is given the job the abuse he is receiving now will only be the tip of the iceberg compared to next season.

Really can''t see why he wants to do this to himself.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

[quote user="Bigus"]His points per game total was better than Roeder''s in less games and he had no time to build his own team.[/quote]

Yeah, by 0.09 points.

[/quote]

Well spotted Graham, it was of course worse or equally bad at best.

Gunny is a lovely bloke and great goalkeeper, but is way out of his depth and is only making a rod for his own back.

Once he is given the job the abuse he is receiving now will only be the tip of the iceberg compared to next season.

Really can''t see why he wants to do this to himself.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

[quote user="Bigus"]His points per game total was better than Roeder''s in less games and he had no time to build his own team.[/quote]

Yeah, by 0.09 points.

[/quote]

Well spotted Graham, it was of course worse or equally bad at best.

Gunny is a lovely bloke and great goalkeeper, but is way out of his depth and is only making a rod for his own back.

Once he is given the job the abuse he is receiving now will only be the tip of the iceberg compared to next season.

Really can''t see why he wants to do this to himself.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

[quote user="Bigus"]His points per game total was better than Roeder''s in less games and he had no time to build his own team.[/quote]

Yeah, by 0.09 points.

[/quote]

Well spotted Graham, it was of course worse or equally bad at best.

Gunny is a lovely bloke and great goalkeeper, but is way out of his depth and is only making a rod for his own back.

Once he is given the job the abuse he is receiving now will only be the tip of the iceberg compared to next season.

Really can''t see why he wants to do this to himself.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]

[quote user="Bigus"]His points per game total was better than Roeder''s in less games and he had no time to build his own team.[/quote]

Yeah, by 0.09 points.

[/quote]

Well spotted Graham, it was of course worse or equally bad at best.

Gunny is a lovely bloke and great goalkeeper, but is way out of his depth and is only making a rod for his own back.

Once he is given the job the abuse he is receiving now will only be the tip of the iceberg compared to next season.

Really can''t see why he wants to do this to himself.

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Gunn needs to go regardless of him being a "legend" or not. I don''t care if he has passion, I and 25,000 other fans have that passion too, he''s simply not a football manager. The man had nearly half a season to keep us in the championship for crying out loud, we weren''t even in the drop zone when Roeder left!

What the hell has he done as manager to endear himself to so many people and convince them that he''s capable of taking us back up? NOTHING, that''s what!

It''s just boils down to blind loyalty or to quote a cracker from Delia, "infinite patience", which has plagued too many fans that are happy just to turn up each week and be spoon fed failure.

WAKE UP! The club needs to disscociate itself from the key figures that have contributed to our lowest point in half a friggin'' century and start over if it wants to have any chance of mounting a promotion charge next season.

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Deffo worth saying 4 times :).

I hear you on the points argument, but again, he was handed a sh*t sandwich with little time to build his own team.

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I''m pretty sure Trevor Brooking was a success in the brief time he was at West Ham? He took over from Roeder (oh, the irony) when they were at the foot of the premiership and saved them from relegation?Now, if only Bryan Gunn could do that sort of trick....

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[quote user="TerryTibbs"]Well, he knows the county and he has passion. What other management skills does he need?[/quote]Ok, let''s see:
  • Historical and global awareness of the development of the game
  • Historical knowledge of wider footballing philosophies
  • Significant tactical experience in a range of league and, preferably, cup competitions
  • Man management experience with players of both young and old ages, and of local, non-local, and international origin
  • Liaison and negotiation with the local and national media
  • Liasion with key fan groups
  • Negotiation with executive management
  • Negotiation and bargaining with the managers and board members of other clubs, and at all levels
  • Experience of when to criticise and when to empathise with poorly-performing players
  • Experience of disciplining players where necessary, and dealing with dressing room unrest and in-fighting
  • Ability to support and motivate disillusioned players and those not making the first team
  • Extensive experience of working closely with health, fitness and nutrition professioinals to ensure the right training regimes are maintained, esp. for a new division with new challenges
  • Building strong relationships with the families and loved ones close to the players
  • Ensuring the club''s reserve league (if any) and the overall reserve set-up is productive for NCFC
  • Overseeing the overall work and progress of the Academy
...have I forgotten anything?Perhaps you should ask Gunny...[:^)]

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[quote user="cockers85"]

I just want to come to the defence of Gunny as I''ve noticed some people posting on here are giving him an unnecessarily hard time. Obviously he diserves some criticism given the current situation, but people questioning his status as a true Norwich legend and his commitment to the club are fickle and idiotic beyond beleif.

In this day and age it is unbelievably rare to find people working at football clubs who are truely passionate about them. This includes players, manager, board members or coaching staff, given how money driven the game is actual love for a team is given a backseat. When he retired he could have gone off done his badges and attempted a career in more appealing roles in managment and coaching e.g. Bowen, Culverhouse, Robins, Crook, Butterworth etc. Instead he stayed at the club he loves a worked in much more uninteresting roles like head of advertsing and player recruitment. Although i cant say for sure he would have been successful moving away from Norwich or that any oppotunites like that would have been offered to him, i know for a fact he stayed because of his loyalty to NCFC and that he wanted to be involved in anyway he could.

The board appointing him was obviously unsuccessful, they seemed to think it would have the ''Alan Shearer at Newcastle'' affect to galvanize the club. It didnt, it was the cheap option. Nevertheless he did what he could with a poor, uninterested, out of form squad and with little to no experience of team managment.

If you look at the satff and players he brought in it is not difficult to see what his philosophy was. Crook and Butterworth, NCFC people with good league coaching experience. Lee wanted to come to the club and always looked commited (i''ve never a seen a player so soaked in sweat as he was at the Reading game). Although Shaks was another loan, he owes alot to the club and was solid. McDonald was given his chance and always looked commited and eager to impress, whether he has the talent or not we will see next year. He also gave the young players a chance.  To me it seemed like with the limited resources he had he was briniging in the right type of people with the right attitude and for me attitude and commitment was the main thing missing in the squad. Obviously it was unsuccessful and i personally dont want him to keep the job either. The fact is the board put him there, in the deep end, mean the blame predominatly lyes with them. Gunn went about it with the right intentions and the right way, but jus lacked the managirial talent and experience to pull it off.

Jus my opinion...

[/quote]

The man is practically on his knees begging for a job that he clearly isnt up to. Didnt conceding 3 goals in 30 minutes against bottom of the league in a must win game tell you that? If he loved the club so much he would listen to the fans and make way for experience. From what I can see, no one wants him to remain manager so why is he continuosly suggesting he should have it? Thats the problem with this bloody club. No one ever listens to the fans. A proven manager is the only way we are going to get out of this mess. Also, and this is in no way intended to be disrespectful. Bryan clearly isnt looking to peaky at the moment. The job has done that to him. If he takes the job full time he could become really ill. I dont want to see that happen.

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[quote user="SportsDesk-FernandoDerveld"][quote user="TerryTibbs"]Well, he knows the county and he has passion. What other management skills does he need?[/quote]Ok, let''s see:.........have I forgotten anything?Perhaps you should ask Gunny...[:^)]

[/quote]Superb post FD. Though I have a horrible feeling the board may not even have thought some of those qualities are necessary. Passion? passion, not enough, not by far. Knowledge, experience and expertise are what we need.

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[quote user="Lord Snooty"]Like I said, he took over a team that was nosediving, in freefall. IMO, had Gunn not taken over at the point he did we would have been relegated well before Charlton. Anyway, it''s a fatuous discussion because you have your opinion and I have mine and neither of us is going to change them. My only disappointment is that so many on here are not capable of giving their own constructive reasoning as to why they have a poor opinion of Gunn, instead they resort to plain and simple unpleasantness and nastiness. That''s me done for the day.[/quote]

I do agree that the abuse a minority have given him is unwarranted. However, by the same token, people should not allow the emotional aspect (i.e. club legend and all that) to cloud their judgement. Plenty of people have indeed given their reasoning as to why Gunn is a poor manager, indeed I have myself but I will go through it all again anyway while I''m here.

The most immediately obvious thing is the points-per-game ratio, barely any better than Roeder''s. A lot was made while we were on a half-decent run in March that spread over the entire season his points ratio would have us in mid-table. A lot less is made of the fact that now, after almost half a season in charge, spread over the season we would have ended up with 48 points, just two more than we actually got, and would have gone down anyway. If Roeder was sacked after five defeats in six league games, then Gunn should not be kept on for exactly the same run of form.

Also I think the ''team in freefall'' argument doesn''t stand up, either. For all of Roeder''s faults, we should remember he took over a team that was stranded at the foot of the table after gaining just eight points from the first 13 matches. Indeed after his first three games we only had one more point to show for it. From that position, 11 without a win, confidence shot to bits and an atrocious squad of players, he got a few players in on loan (making just one permanent signing) and by the end of February we were 12th. Granted, it fell apart after that - but we still survived, something that looked impossible after that infamous defeat at Plymouth. Contrast that with Gunn taking charge with us outside the bottom three and winning his first game 4-0, but still getting us relegated by five points. He also worked under the same restrictions Roeder had, almost entirely working with loans even in the transfer window, but still didn''t succeed.

I don''t necessarily believe the players had more respect and were willing to work for him. Sure, to start with that was probably the case - after witnessing Roeder''s total lack of PR and man-management skills it was probably a refreshing change for them. But performances and results were uncannily similar to the ones Roeder''s team produced - the odd excellent result (Wolves and Birmingham away, Cardiff at home) more than cancelled out by the spineless, clueless displays (Southampton (arguably the most damaging result), Coventry and Sheffield Wednesday at home, Blackpool and Charlton away) in which the teams and tactics Gunn chose were questionable at best, and were compounded by his apparent inability to use substitutions to his advantage, all the while doing his best impression of a rabbit in headlights - that is when he wasn''t having a go at referees (although in fairness he was justified on several occasions - not that it should mask the incompetence of the performances). If Plan A worked, then great - but it often didn''t, and he was often out-thought by the opposition manager, with no Plan B in sight.

And during the last month or so, it''s been painfully obvious that the can''t motivate the team; summed up by being 3-0 down after half-an-hour at bottom club Charlton. Yes, the players have to take some responsibility for that, but being able to motivate and earn the respect of your players is a big part of being a manager and standing at The Valley at 1.50pm on Sunday, I saw firm evidence that he hasn''t been able to do that.

Yes, the blame for our decline must go higher than Gunn, or indeed any of the managers. The board (freely admitting that they offered him the post on the back of that second half against Barnsley, where we won despite playing Russell and Cureton up front) should never even have considered him for manager. But he accepted the job, knew what that entailed, worked with his hands tied like every manager since Worthington won us promotion, and as Gunn has acknowledged himself, he failed. Therefore he has to take some responsibility, as he was the man in charge when we suffered our first relegation from the second tier since 1939. Even as we celebrated a big win on January 17th, our fate was sealed. Appointing a ''proper'' manager may have saved us from that fate. Things would still have to change at the top, but we could do it still as a Championship club. Now we are a League One team and it is vital we pick someone who can do a job at this level, but is hungry to move forward, has ambition and has shown he has real potential. Norwich City surely an attractive prospect to this type of manager, and though we need a fresh start at board level, the right managerial appointment will also help no end.

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A truly excellent post, Graham. It highlights the crucial point that Gunn couldn''t even do the one thing he was supposed to have been chosen for, and that was motivate the team.I actually think appointing a "proper" manager would have saved us (it worked for Forest) but that is irrelevant now. What is undeniable is that the board must appoint a proper manager.As to what the board will actually do? Until a day or so ago I was almost sure Gunn would be kept on. I just get the sense now that the arguments may have shifted slightly against him. But even if that is so, and the directors would like to make a change purely on footballing grounds, the key question remains whether they feel they can afford another upheaval.   

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]A truly excellent post, Graham. It highlights the crucial point that Gunn couldn''t even do the one thing he was supposed to have been chosen for, and that was motivate the team.I actually think appointing a "proper" manager would have saved us (it worked for Forest) but that is irrelevant now. What is undeniable is that the board must appoint a proper manager.As to what the board will actually do? Until a day or so ago I was almost sure Gunn would be kept on. I just get the sense now that the arguments may have shifted slightly against him. But even if that is so, and the directors would like to make a change purely on footballing grounds, the key question remains whether they feel they can afford another upheaval.   [/quote]Maybe the "proper" Forest manager also had some "proper" money and some "proper" full-time playersGive Gunn a break!

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Even if that is true (and I have no idea whether it is), it still doesn''t make Gunn a proper manager.As for giving Gunn a break, why? The moment he decided, against all the evidence, that he could be a football manager was the moment I started judging him as a football manager. And only as a football manager. His past became instantly irrelevant.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"]Even if that is true (and I have no idea whether it is), it still doesn''t make Gunn a proper manager.As for giving Gunn a break, why? The moment he decided, against all the evidence, that he could be a football manager was the moment I started judging him as a football manager. And only as a football manager. His past became instantly irrelevant.[/quote]If Gunn had gone down with his own players I would agree with you - most of the players he was blessed with were loans and most of them were cr@p  and his budget was pretty much zeroGunny  bravely joined the Titanic when it was already at a 45% angle, It didn''t work out but I''m not going to beat the guy up for that - I still believe he has what it takes - I believe he will keep the job and I believe he will prove me right

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Dear oh dear most of the players were either brought in by Gunn after he got the job or on his reccomendation as head of player recruitment , and if Gunn took over the Titanic 2 pts above the drop zone just what would you call the position Roeder inherited and still managed to save us.Stop kidding yourself you begin to sound like Gunn.

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[quote user="canaryspike7"]Couldnt be bothered to read your long post. Gunn Out!!![/quote]Very ignorant post but i am inclined to agree, only because i think the Gunn situation comes down to this :Not good enoughNice lad and gives it his all thoughQuit and remain a legend and a hero before we string you up from the Ramparts of Norwich Castle !!

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[quote user="Bigus"]

NX Canary. They were not his team at all. Roeder was certainly not dictated to in any matter let alone the transfer market. While Carney on the right and Shackell on the left were certainly questionable, this is why the coaching staff behind him need to be experienced to support him. But he has also shown he can sign good players and the football improved under him. Fans always question the managers decision, go to the Liverpool boards and see how many are questioning Rafa! Personally I''ve seen enough to convince me he is the right man. Can''t buy hunger, pride and passion like that. And quite frankly, restoring those three traits is exactly what we need!

I also believe he has his badges. Am I wrong?

-Bigus

[/quote]

I was under the impression he didn''t but maybe I''m wrong, if he does then there''s even less excuse for a lack of tactical nous!

Just to make a point about the team he inherited........

The starting 11 on sunday goes as follows with manager who signed them in brackets, Marshall (Grant), Shackell (Gunn), Doherty (Worthington), Leijer (Gunn), Otsemobor (Grant), Lappin (Grant), Clingan (Roeder), Russell (Grant), Smith (Youth), Lee (Gunn), Mooney (Gunn).

Yes he inherited someone else''s squad to a certain extent, but all managers do and as you can see he had brought in a number of players of his own to re-shape the squad. Furthermore he has been head of recruitment at the club for a considerable period of time now and so it is likely that he had a significant amount of contact with the players who Roeder and Grant brought in. In fact only one of Roeder''s signings started on Sunday, the majority of the rest brought in by Gunn himself or Peter Grant, so the performance cannot be laid at the door of Roeder for bringing in poor players. There were enough players on the pitch on Sunday who have been around the club for several years, they should know the place well and feel that it is worth fighting for, however despite this we were 3-0 down inside 30mins. They must shoulder much of the blame for this, but so should the man whose job it was to manage them.

My issue is that whilst he may display immense passion and hunger for the job it hasn''t, particularly in the last three games, been transmitted to the players. The home win against Watford gave us all hope but it was followed up by three dismal performances which consigned us to League one. Gunn was brought in to motivate the team and was simply unable to do so. In contrast Billy Davies came into the Forest job at about the same time, in an even worse situation and was able to keep them up. This does not reflect well on Gunn. If Davies, whose previous job was for Forest''s arch rivals Derby, can keep them up why could Gunn who is an absolute club legend not do the same? Both inherited a struggling team which had been put together by another man, both brought in a number of loan players to remedy the situation, yet Davies turned things around and Gunn could not.

Personally I just can''t see him changing things around sufficiently to make us look like we might challenge for promotion in any way next season. After all he had 19 games, not to re-shape the team in terms of personnel but to re-energise them and make them believe they could succeed. I''m afraid he was unable to do so and therefore i''m not convinced that he''s going to be able to in a less pressurised atmosphere at the start of next season. I mean if he can''t get the players up for the fight in a championship relegation battle what hope does he have in mid-november when we''re playing Carlisle or Hartlepool away?

I love the guy but he needs to bow out gracefully, accept that it was too big a job for him to take on and let someone else take the club forward.

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We''ll, its hard to motivate a bunch of players who have checked out. Players in the pub on Sunday night and at the station in Charlton, 30 mins after the game says it all really. Some good points but I believe Sky is reporting Gunny has the job so we should all now collectively support the man for the good of the club.

Up the City!

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