how are clubs like burnley, Preston and Swansea doing better than us?

[ndhscanary 0]

Something that i fail to understand and i know it has been mentioned on canary call is how on earth are teams like the Swansea, Preston, Burnley, Cardiff, bristol city doing so well in this league? they are all in and around the play off area at the moment.

Now lets just compare us and these clubs. We were in the premiership what 4 years ago now while all of the teams i have mentioned have not been in the premier league and in the last 10 years they have all been in league 1 or lower during this period and none have been in the premier league. So we have had millions of £s worth of parachute payments and TV money while none of these have really had such luxury.

We have been getting average crowds of around 25,000 for the last 4-5 years. I believe Swansea, Preston and Burnley all get average crowds of around 12-13,000 while Cardiff and Bristol City get around 15,000. So they get crowds of around 10,000 less than us which is a big difference in terms of gate reciepts.

I also believe that although these clubs have had a few big money players sold it is nowhere near now much we have brought in. Ashton,Etuhu, Francis, Earnshaw i could go on for ages about all the big money sums we have got. We must have at least got 25 Million for players in the last 4 years while we only must have spent about 10-15 Million on buying players. While these teams have sold their chopras and nugents etc. but they still have nowhere got in the same amount of money that we have got for players and yet they still bring in good players such as Neil Mellor, Chris eagles, Jason Scotland. I think Swansea paid around £100,000 for Scotland. Look how many goals he has scored for them compared to the likes of Brown, Strihavka, Cureton who we have wasted so much money on.

you compare us and these clubs and with the way things were we should be doing better than them. We should have lots more money than them in terms of gate receipts, parachute payments money brought in from players. Yet our board have managed to send us down to the third tier by making stupid decisions and sending probably in the regions of millions straight down the shitter. Stupid managerial appointments and then spending alot of money paying them and their coaching staff off. Building hotels, restaurants and pleasing the prawn sandwich brigade instead of investing in players. Allowing glenn roeder to bring in a load of loan players who dont care, appointing bryan gunn i could go on all day.

The fact is these clubs have spent wisely with nowhere near as much money coming in as what we have had. They have totally outsmarted us and made a mockery of us. They have good people running the club instead of our clueless lot and for me it is shows just how much of a bad job our board have done and why them and doomcaster have got to go

[Camuldonum 0]

[quote user="ndhscanary"]

Something that i fail to understand and i know it has been mentioned on canary call is how on earth are teams like the Swansea, Preston, Burnley, Cardiff, bristol city doing so well in this league? they are all in and around the play off area at the moment.

Now lets just compare us and these clubs. We were in the premiership what 4 years ago now while all of the teams i have mentioned have not been in the premier league and in the last 10 years they have all been in league 1 or lower during this period and none have been in the premier league. So we have had millions of £s worth of parachute payments and TV money while none of these have really had such luxury.

We have been getting average crowds of around 25,000 for the last 4-5 years. I believe Swansea, Preston and Burnley all get average crowds of around 12-13,000 while Cardiff and Bristol City get around 15,000. So they get crowds of around 10,000 less than us which is a big difference in terms of gate reciepts.

I also believe that although these clubs have had a few big money players sold it is nowhere near now much we have brought in. Ashton,Etuhu, Francis, Earnshaw i could go on for ages about all the big money sums we have got. We must have at least got 25 Million for players in the last 4 years while we only must have spent about 10-15 Million on buying players. While these teams have sold their chopras and nugents etc. but they still have nowhere got in the same amount of money that we have got for players and yet they still bring in good players such as Neil Mellor, Chris eagles, Jason Scotland. I think Swansea paid around £100,000 for Scotland. Look how many goals he has scored for them compared to the likes of Brown, Strihavka, Cureton who we have wasted so much money on.

you compare us and these clubs and with the way things were we should be doing better than them. We should have lots more money than them in terms of gate receipts, parachute payments money brought in from players. Yet our board have managed to send us down to the third tier by making stupid decisions and sending probably in the regions of millions straight down the shitter. Stupid managerial appointments and then spending alot of money paying them and their coaching staff off. Building hotels, restaurants and pleasing the prawn sandwich brigade instead of investing in players. Allowing glenn roeder to bring in a load of loan players who dont care, appointing bryan gunn i could go on all day.

The fact is these clubs have spent wisely with nowhere near as much money coming in as what we have had. They have totally outsmarted us and made a mockery of us. They have good people running the club instead of our clueless lot and for me it is shows just how much of a bad job our board have done and why them and doomcaster have got to go

[/quote]

 

In the case of Cardiff there is an ongoing High Court case involving Hamman and Ridsdale (two people absolutely Fit For Purpose in controlling a football club) which, should Cardiff lose, would involve them finding an immediate £31m somewhere or other.

Cotterill at Burnley was personally funded in player acquisitions by property millionaire Brendan Flood (although Cotterill was subsequently dumped but it was Flood who paid for his signings, not out of club funds)

Preston are bankrolled by Trevor Hemmings who owns the Blackpool Tower and a sizeable chunk of Scottish and Newcastle Breweries.

Swansea have a decent side but a financial history that would have sent most on here jumping into the Wensum.  Many of their fans have no idea how they have avoided bankruptcy but they have.

Bristol City bankrolled by Steve Lansdown (personal fortune £338m), one of my two stockbrokers.[+o(]

You may be quite right that all have spent wisely but at least three of those clubs have access to funding which I don''t believe is available to you at the moment.  And if the High Court rule against Cardiff they will go mammaries up.  Unless they can find someone with a spare £31m that is.

 

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="Camuldonum"]

And if the High Court rule against Cardiff they will go mammaries up.  Unless they can find someone with a spare £31m that is.

 

[/quote]I bet they still exist and quite likely at least one division above us no matter what the ruling, even West Ham with their existing and potential liabilities are able to attract interest from five prospective owners.

[Camuldonum 0]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

And if the High Court rule against Cardiff they will go mammaries up.  Unless they can find someone with a spare £31m that is.

 

[/quote]

I bet they still exist and quite likely at least one division above us no matter what the ruling, even West Ham with their existing and potential liabilities are able to attract interest from five prospective owners.
[/quote]

Interlocutory, as they say in the High Court, and awaiting the outcome are the Serious Fraud Office.  Hopefully they will be able to keep on playing football (Cardiff City, that is, not the Serious Fraud Office).

[Mr.Carrow 394]

[quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="ndhscanary"]

Something that i fail to understand and i know it has been mentioned on canary call is how on earth are teams like the Swansea, Preston, Burnley, Cardiff, bristol city doing so well in this league? they are all in and around the play off area at the moment.

Now lets just compare us and these clubs. We were in the premiership what 4 years ago now while all of the teams i have mentioned have not been in the premier league and in the last 10 years they have all been in league 1 or lower during this period and none have been in the premier league. So we have had millions of £s worth of parachute payments and TV money while none of these have really had such luxury.

We have been getting average crowds of around 25,000 for the last 4-5 years. I believe Swansea, Preston and Burnley all get average crowds of around 12-13,000 while Cardiff and Bristol City get around 15,000. So they get crowds of around 10,000 less than us which is a big difference in terms of gate reciepts.

I also believe that although these clubs have had a few big money players sold it is nowhere near now much we have brought in. Ashton,Etuhu, Francis, Earnshaw i could go on for ages about all the big money sums we have got. We must have at least got 25 Million for players in the last 4 years while we only must have spent about 10-15 Million on buying players. While these teams have sold their chopras and nugents etc. but they still have nowhere got in the same amount of money that we have got for players and yet they still bring in good players such as Neil Mellor, Chris eagles, Jason Scotland. I think Swansea paid around £100,000 for Scotland. Look how many goals he has scored for them compared to the likes of Brown, Strihavka, Cureton who we have wasted so much money on.

you compare us and these clubs and with the way things were we should be doing better than them. We should have lots more money than them in terms of gate receipts, parachute payments money brought in from players. Yet our board have managed to send us down to the third tier by making stupid decisions and sending probably in the regions of millions straight down the shitter. Stupid managerial appointments and then spending alot of money paying them and their coaching staff off. Building hotels, restaurants and pleasing the prawn sandwich brigade instead of investing in players. Allowing glenn roeder to bring in a load of loan players who dont care, appointing bryan gunn i could go on all day.

The fact is these clubs have spent wisely with nowhere near as much money coming in as what we have had. They have totally outsmarted us and made a mockery of us. They have good people running the club instead of our clueless lot and for me it is shows just how much of a bad job our board have done and why them and doomcaster have got to go

[/quote]

 

In the case of Cardiff there is an ongoing High Court case involving Hamman and Ridsdale (two people absolutely Fit For Purpose in controlling a football club) which, should Cardiff lose, would involve them finding an immediate £31m somewhere or other.

Cotterill at Burnley was personally funded in player acquisitions by property millionaire Brendan Flood (although Cotterill was subsequently dumped but it was Flood who paid for his signings, not out of club funds)

Preston are bankrolled by Trevor Hemmings who owns the Blackpool Tower and a sizeable chunk of Scottish and Newcastle Breweries.

Swansea have a decent side but a financial history that would have sent most on here jumping into the Wensum.  Many of their fans have no idea how they have avoided bankruptcy but they have.

Bristol City bankrolled by Steve Lansdown (personal fortune £338m), one of my two stockbrokers.[+o(]

You may be quite right that all have spent wisely but at least three of those clubs have access to funding which I don''t believe is available to you at the moment.  And if the High Court rule against Cardiff they will go mammaries up.  Unless they can find someone with a spare £31m that is.

 

[/quote]

From what i`ve read the Preston guy has lent the club £7m- about the same as Delia so not relevant i`m afraid.

[The Fish Seller 0]

9:25 am, January 26, 2009

Burnley FC owes Modus MD £2.68m

Brendan Flood, managing director of Manchester-based property

development firm Modus, is owed more than £2.5m by Burnley Football

Club.Flood

is a director at the club he supports and its most recent set of filed

accounts highlights he loaned it £2.68m, “to provide the funds to pay

the bills and try to improve the team.” The club, which plays

in the Championship and recently lost out on a money-spinning Carling

Cup final appearance, recorded pre-tax losses of £1.8m to the end of

June 2008 and predicted an additional “significant” loss for 2009,

largely because of the size of its wage bill. Total staff costs for the

club were £9.76m, up on the previous year’s £7.1m.Flood was

also the owner of Passion for Perfume, which went into administration

at the beginning of 2009 with the loss of more than 190 jobs.

[rjwc22 0]

Comparable amount to that the Turners would have lent us.

Owen Coyle and Cotterill are both great managers, as is David Moyes and Martinez is a real up and comer.

Think good management structures have made the difference.

[The Fish Seller 0]

pre-tax losses of £1.8m to the end of

June 2008 and predicted an additional “significant” loss for 2009,

largely because of the size of its wage bill. Total staff costs for the

club were £9.76m, up on the previous year’s £7.1m.Our total staff costs in the same period were approx £13m and £14m that''s a whopping difference in two years of £10m on wages spent alone.Not so prudent after all are we????

[Superflash 0]

Whilst the money side of things clearly hasn''t helped our cause, the reason for our decline is quite simple: The Managers.I was actually a fan of Worthington despite the protests for his removal. He got us up to the Prem and very nearly kept us there. But I suppose in the end he had to go. Following up from this, we needed a manager who could take the team forward and arrest the slump. Teams like the ones stated above have managed to do this. Who did we get? Peter flipping Grant. Roeder at the very least kept us in the league last year but after he completely destroyed the squad in the summer he could never get out of the rut. Tactically speaking, you''ll also find that the managers for teams such as Preston have consistently maintained a better record over the years. The teams have had their share of managerial dissapointments too, but they''ve been nowhere near as catastrophic as our board''s decisions and this is what has led us to where we are today. It''s the appointments of Grant and Roeder which have ensured we don''t enjoy the similar success of the likes of the other teams stated. Even the board members for the other clubs have made mistakes in the past, but the difference is that they''ve bounced back from them and turned things around.

[Saint Canary 0]

The answer to this question is simple, the clubs you mentioned have built teams over a number of seasons.  There has been no magic wand waved over these clubs it''s all about team building, trying to get stronger season after season by adding 2, 3 or 4 players at a time.  City have done the opposite and our team has been dismantled over a number years with the squad size reducing to such an extent that we would struggle to put out a full matchday squad of our own players without playing youngsters without any experience.  Continuity is key here and we have seen a huge turnover of players in the squad in recent seasons and that''s before factoring in loan players.The fact the we now have a short-term manager overseeing a squad littered with short-term players shows the lack of direction at the club and for the last few years we have been fumbling around in the dark hoping to that we might get lucky.  Any team with the amount of comings and goings we have seen in just a few seasons is going to struggle.  It''s hard to build up the type of team spirit and cohesion we had when we won the league with players here for merely a few months.  By the time players have settled they are off again and replced by a someone else who will find his feet and then leave.What really baffles me is that the board will defend all the investment in land deals etc as being prudent and planning for City''s financial future.  Yet despite this forward thinking  for non-football activies they have allowed the team to be run on a quick-fix mentality.  The fact that we have papered over the cracks for so long is now coming back to haunt us and we are in such a ludicrous situation that we are now bringing in loan players to cover for other injured loan players!  We all accept that loans are a fact of life in this league but they should be used to add quality not quantity.  We have got to the point where we are having take Reading''s 5th choice striker on loan and he''s not even fully fit.  That alone tells you how much trouble we are in.

[Chunky Norwich 0]

Fantastic post from Saint Canary! I was about to post something similar but you beat me with an effort I''ll never be able to match.

For my two cents however, it''s not just all about the money; it''s what you do with it that counts. Take QPR for instance. They were massively pre-season favourites because they had so much money but have never really challenged because their squad is still very average (buying Rowan Vine and Damian Delaney etc). I think it all comes down to transfers to be honest and that is where Norwich suck and have always - in my time supporting from the mid-90s anyway - sucked.

There are so many quality players who become available on free transfers or on the cheap or who are making a name for themselves in lower leagues. Some managers and clubs are really well at doing spotting that or going for the cheeky bids - I think David Jones is the most underated manager in the English game. Norwich never have. 50% of Norwich''s signings seem to be old players coming to the end of their careers and injury prone and another 40% seem to be nobodies from other Championship or Premiership reserves who are not wanted. They''re usually cloggers looking for a final pay-cheque rather than good footballers with a point to prove or a youthful spring in their step.

Looking at the three clubs you''ve name-checked; Burnley picked up Chris Eagles on a free, Steven Caldwell for a few 100k, Joey Gudjonsson for a nominal fee, Robbie Blake for £250k. Preston got Neil Mellor on the cheap, Chris Sedgwick for about £400k, Billy Jones for a nominal tribunal and Barry Nicholson on a free. Even Swansea got Jason Scotland for £25k (not a typo!), Ferrie Bodde for about £50k, Owain Tudor Jones for £5k and Angel Rangel for a nominal fee.

In that same time, we''ve bought players like Hooghes for half a million, Etuhu for the same, Russell for £600k and £350k for Zema bloody Abbey. We''ve signed cloggers on big wages like Jarrett, Walsh, Louis-Jean and Carl Robinson. Held on to players for far too long when they clearly aren''t good enough like Coote, Henderson, Sutch and Mulryne. Our transfer policy is not ALWAYS woeful - we get the odd Dean Ashton or Paul McVeigh on a free or Darren Huckerby or Gary Holt for £150k - but these are normally the exceptions that prove the rule.

A few years ago, our scouts recommended a young Manchester United striker called David Healey and when we asked how much he''d cost, we were told £500k. The board balked at this and snapped up his strike partner Alex Notman for a cheaper £350k. £150k difference can sometimes be a lot!

[rjwc22 0]

So true.

Perhaps these clubs are also helped by their proximity to Manchester and the young players from there who get released.

Unfortunately Norwich is not the most glamourous of destinations for talented youngsters or overseas imports.

[ZLF 335]

They are doing better by using their budget more effectively in creating a squad that is properly shaped with appropriate attributes and skills that are needed to be successful.

 

The manager is then able to convey his tactics into the team so that they work better as a group than 11 individuals, through clarity of purpose and responsibility and motivating them to perform for the team and club as well as themselves,  so getting value for money and outperforming their budget constraints

 

It is in this regard that the managers we have had have failed so miserably

[rjwc22 0]

To paraphrase you are saying that the managers we have had recently had one major flaw - the inability to manage a football team.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Camuldonum"]

 

In the case of Cardiff there is an ongoing High Court case involving Hamman and Ridsdale (two people absolutely Fit For Purpose in controlling a football club) which, should Cardiff lose, would involve them finding an immediate £31m somewhere or other.

And if the High Court rule against Cardiff they will go mammaries up. 

[/quote]

I thought Cardiff won the case some time ago resulting in the repayment date being unaltered, i.e they have quite a long  time to go before they have to repay the debt.

[Jim Smith 2,610]

[quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="ndhscanary"]

Something that i fail to understand and i know it has been mentioned on canary call is how on earth are teams like the Swansea, Preston, Burnley, Cardiff, bristol city doing so well in this league? they are all in and around the play off area at the moment.

Now lets just compare us and these clubs. We were in the premiership what 4 years ago now while all of the teams i have mentioned have not been in the premier league and in the last 10 years they have all been in league 1 or lower during this period and none have been in the premier league. So we have had millions of £s worth of parachute payments and TV money while none of these have really had such luxury.

We have been getting average crowds of around 25,000 for the last 4-5 years. I believe Swansea, Preston and Burnley all get average crowds of around 12-13,000 while Cardiff and Bristol City get around 15,000. So they get crowds of around 10,000 less than us which is a big difference in terms of gate reciepts.

I also believe that although these clubs have had a few big money players sold it is nowhere near now much we have brought in. Ashton,Etuhu, Francis, Earnshaw i could go on for ages about all the big money sums we have got. We must have at least got 25 Million for players in the last 4 years while we only must have spent about 10-15 Million on buying players. While these teams have sold their chopras and nugents etc. but they still have nowhere got in the same amount of money that we have got for players and yet they still bring in good players such as Neil Mellor, Chris eagles, Jason Scotland. I think Swansea paid around £100,000 for Scotland. Look how many goals he has scored for them compared to the likes of Brown, Strihavka, Cureton who we have wasted so much money on.

you compare us and these clubs and with the way things were we should be doing better than them. We should have lots more money than them in terms of gate receipts, parachute payments money brought in from players. Yet our board have managed to send us down to the third tier by making stupid decisions and sending probably in the regions of millions straight down the shitter. Stupid managerial appointments and then spending alot of money paying them and their coaching staff off. Building hotels, restaurants and pleasing the prawn sandwich brigade instead of investing in players. Allowing glenn roeder to bring in a load of loan players who dont care, appointing bryan gunn i could go on all day.

The fact is these clubs have spent wisely with nowhere near as much money coming in as what we have had. They have totally outsmarted us and made a mockery of us. They have good people running the club instead of our clueless lot and for me it is shows just how much of a bad job our board have done and why them and doomcaster have got to go

[/quote]

 

In the case of Cardiff there is an ongoing High Court case involving Hamman and Ridsdale (two people absolutely Fit For Purpose in controlling a football club) which, should Cardiff lose, would involve them finding an immediate £31m somewhere or other.

Cotterill at Burnley was personally funded in player acquisitions by property millionaire Brendan Flood (although Cotterill was subsequently dumped but it was Flood who paid for his signings, not out of club funds)

Preston are bankrolled by Trevor Hemmings who owns the Blackpool Tower and a sizeable chunk of Scottish and Newcastle Breweries.

Swansea have a decent side but a financial history that would have sent most on here jumping into the Wensum.  Many of their fans have no idea how they have avoided bankruptcy but they have.

Bristol City bankrolled by Steve Lansdown (personal fortune £338m), one of my two stockbrokers.[+o(]

You may be quite right that all have spent wisely but at least three of those clubs have access to funding which I don''t believe is available to you at the moment.  And if the High Court rule against Cardiff they will go mammaries up.  Unless they can find someone with a spare £31m that is.

 

[/quote]

 

Not aware that the Bristol bloke has actually put that much in. His wealth is all "on paper" so far as I can ascertain which i believe is an accusation many have levlled at Cullum!

[rjwc22 0]

But it is nice to know someone is there to cover your debts and help with outstanding purchases etc.

However our need this season has been clear to all and the fact that Cullum has not come forward shows his true value to this club.

[Mr.Carrow 394]

[quote user="rjwc22"]

So true.

Perhaps these clubs are also helped by their proximity to Manchester and the young players from there who get released.

Unfortunately Norwich is not the most glamourous of destinations for talented youngsters or overseas imports.

[/quote]

And Swansea is?!

[Mr.Carrow 394]

Preston lost Nugent for £6m and brought in Chaplow and Carter for a million apiece plus numerous other good players for decent money.  Burnley sold their young centre-forward for £3.5m and spent good money on Pattison, McDonald, Eagles plus several others.  They sell ONE player for big money in several years and within a few months you can see the squad clearly strengthened.

We lose Francis, Jonsson, Ashton, Green, Etuhu, McKenzie and Earnshaw all for huge money and have a look at our squad now.  It has been asset-stripped, plain and simple.

[HappyhammerAndy 0]

Could it be one word, Belief?

Could it be that they raise their game to play in your full stadium?

Could it be that they are horrible places to go and get a result?

Norwich on a cold, rainy, wednesday night or, Swansea in the same?

Could it be your changes in Manager, staff and the termoil that it creates?

Could it be that they have a team spirit and you don''t?

Any or all?

Andy.

 

[ron obvious 1,711]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="rjwc22"]

So true.

Perhaps these clubs are also helped by their proximity to Manchester and the young players from there who get released.

Unfortunately Norwich is not the most glamourous of destinations for talented youngsters or overseas imports.

[/quote]

And Swansea is?!

[/quote]No, but not too far from Cardiff & Bristol. Plus just off the M4. Probably quicker to get to Lunnun & Brum. Plus less of a"fuddy duddy" image - more Chavvy. Footballers like chavs.

[Mr.Carrow 394]

We are hardly very far from London ron, particularly if a player decides to live down Diss way- it`s practically commuter belt.

[Canary02 III 0]

There is a trend in terms of important decisions.

Ken Brown - Good manager, bought the likes of Woods, Bruce, Watson, Drinkell, and latterly Gunn, Culverhouse, Crook. Followed by:

Dave Stringer - Another good manager, kept the nucleus of Brown''s signings, kept them happy, and added Bowen, Fleck, Sherwood, Townsend, Phelan, Butterworth. Followed by:

Mike Walker - Another good manager, kept the nucleus of Brown and Stringers signings, kept them happy, and added Robins, Megson, Ekoku.

 

Contrast with:

Nigel Worthington - Good manager, but following relegation he made a series of poor decisions regarding personnel, and replacing valuable players like Ashton and Francis with alternatives such as Hughes and Robinson.

Peter Grant - Awful manager, who replaced the likes of Earnshaw and Etuhu with Strihavka and Brellier.

Glenn Roeder - Awful person, who replaced the likes of Dublin and Huckerby with Archibald-Henville and Koroma.

 

It''s the continuation of a) appointing bad manager after bad manager along with  b) those managers repeatedly swapping decent players for rubbish over a prolonged period.

The reason Walkers side was as good as it was, was due in no small part to a continuty of success and good judges of players as managers. Brown and Stringer paved the way for that success. In the same way, Worthington, Grant and Roeder are all hugely to blame for the mess that Gunn finds himself in now.