how are we a "small club"?

[National express super guard 0]

ok, so just been watching sky sports news (apparently all english final tonight, wish I''d known that before today!!! sheesh), and they currently have an average attendance thing on side of screen, and lo and behold we''re 2nd, only behind sheff utd. now, this is higher than charlton, wolves, the binners and even west brom amongst others. yet we''re still considered by many, including certain members of the board, as a small club. how is this the case? as long as this perception continues the club is always gonna struggle to attract investment and players. Even when we had come down from premiersh*t, we still weren''t considered the biggest team in the league. Leeds, god bless their warped view of themselves, are still considered a big club, yet at the min are still a league below.sorry, this whole "small" club thing really grates on me.

[DOGGER 0]

The only way we are a small club is that we have hardly won any trophies in our history, that''s the only way i can work it out.

[Big Ginge 0]

Unfortunately our board seem to believe we are a small club and have ambition to match.

Nice little Norwich, as long as averyone likes us then that is ok.

[National express super guard 0]

I sense you''re as annoyed as me!!!!!!!! least everyone like us!!!

[kdncfc 0]

We will be considered an even smaller club in the near future without massive new investment coming into the club, it won''t be to many more years before MK Dons will be a bigger club than us. It will only be a matter of time before they are in the prem and with Winklemans millions behind them they will probably stay there. The way things are at the moment because of our lack of money I can see the day that we will be a league 1 club that yo yo''s between league 1 and the championship. This is a massive summer for us and if we do indeed have a skinny budget as some suggest we don''t have a hope in hell of getting enough players of a decent standard to avoid being relegated next season.

[10 Bryceland 0]

I cannot recall anyone on the board or elsewhere referring to us as a small club recently.  In the past when this phrase has been used it has been taken out of context and used by anyone who wishes to berate the board and anyone else they disagree with.  we are a football club in a city with a catchement area of around 150, 00 set in a rural area with little public transport.  For whatever the reasons our support and season ticket renewal rate is amazing.  Is being prudent with money a bad thing?  Unlimited money does not guarantee success and brings it''s own problems. I find it arrogant that people constantly demand cash from the board.  Why should they put money in?  They are custodians of the club and invest time and experience in keeping us where we are and trying to get us into the First division.  Football goes in cycles and is a matter of luck as much as judgement.  Lets remain passionate about the canaries but can we change the record, move on and be constructive in both word and deed in support of the club we all love?

[Yellow Rider 0]

[quote user="Big Ginge"]

Unfortunately our board seem to believe we are a small club and have ambition to match.

Nice little Norwich, as long as averyone likes us then that is ok.

[/quote]

Correct and there''s only one person responsible for that - a certain Delia Smith! She (as we all know) used that infuriating phrase on more than one occasion in the Premiership season.

[National express super guard 0]

I was not berating the board, I admit that I aint their biggest fan, but as a supporter I am entitled to demand success no matter how unreasonable this is. My point was the perception of the club is we are a small backwater, and the average attendances show this not to be the case. with the support being so tremendous why is this not reflected in the clubs league form.its about time we stood up, and said "we are the officially the 2nd biggest club in the league, take us seriously".I am not gonna get personal, but if you continue to believe the nonsense that we''re a small club. my friend you''re wrong. support around the world, one of the biggest fan bases in oz, WE ARE NOT A SMALL CLUB.on the ball city

[we8wba 0]

norwich are an average club in average league fact

your support is the only thing which gives you half a shout of being a "big club"

history is also a big factor, thats the only thing what keeps my club being above average in size

[Paul Lamberts Disciple 0]

Weve had this chat before, there is a lot more to define a club''s size than just attendances. A combination of attendances, overall fanbase, catchment area, ground size, average historical level (which league), historical success (trophies), off the pitch infrastructure including marketing (im afraid this is now part of it), investment, and geographical location (central vs not, good access vs not.) I wouldnt even include current league standing because of traditionally "small" clubs spending extended time in the Prem and traditionally big clubs like Notts Forest and Leeds in the lower leagues.

Based on the above we tick some boxes but clearly we dont tick others. Clubs like Leeds, Notts Forest, Sheff U and West Brom tick more.

[National express super guard 0]

a club should be merited on its support, you can tell you''re a wolves fan, you hate the fact that Norwich have a better fan base than you. we''ve won a league title more recently than wolves, been in top flight more recently, how can you argue that wolves are not an avergae side as you put it. sorry, many of the things you say I can see a point to, but this is pure drivel. I suppose you''re now gonna quote how you won the league in 1906 and as such deserve this big club tag.well we won the milk cup in 1985, beat that!!!!!!!!!!!

[National express super guard 0]

would you agree tho jim that we aint a small club as many people seem to assume we are?

[Mr.Carrow 378]

[quote user="10 Bryceland"]I cannot recall anyone on the board or elsewhere referring to us as a small club recently.  In the past when this phrase has been used it has been taken out of context and used by anyone who wishes to berate the board and anyone else they disagree with.  we are a football club in a city with a catchement area of around 150, 00 set in a rural area with little public transport.  For whatever the reasons our support and season ticket renewal rate is amazing.  Is being prudent with money a bad thing?  Unlimited money does not guarantee success and brings it''s own problems. I find it arrogant that people constantly demand cash from the board.  Why should they put money in?  They are custodians of the club and invest time and experience in keeping us where we are and trying to get us into the First division.  Football goes in cycles and is a matter of luck as much as judgement.  Lets remain passionate about the canaries but can we change the record, move on and be constructive in both word and deed in support of the club we all love?[/quote]

How do you arrive at your 150,000 catchment area figure?  The proposed unitary authority will give greater Norwich a population figure of 300,000, the population of Norfolk is 830,000 and the club draw alot of support from beyond the county line- particularly Lowestoft/Waveney which has a population of 180,000.

The clubs catchment area is well over 1 million people with no real competition therefore our current support is potentially the tip of the iceberg.

[Man-E-Faces 0]

Get a grip we8wba and stop living in the past! You are not a ''big team'' anymore. The last trophy you won was the Championship play off final in ''03, we won the title more recently that that. The one before that (correct me if i''m wrong) was the biggy, the Sherpa Van Trophy in 1988!

[Taxing 0]

Blimey, this discussion has taken place on this MB so many times before. Norwich City is not a small club but it is perceived as being a friendly, family club in a remote part of the country populated by in-breds who have nothing better to do to occupy their time on Saturday afternoons than go to the local footbal club which is why Norwich get surprisingly high attendances. It is true that within the context of the last 20 years or so, attendances have peaked in recent years but this is likely to change as more and more fans become disillusioned with sustained mediocrity.

 

The other point is that there is a belief, well founded I think, that the catchment area does not comprise a big enough population to suggest that even with a larger ground capacity attendances can grow further. In other words, we will only ever be a medium sized club stuck out in the sticks and with low expectations of success. Investors are looking for clubs which are not currently realising their full potential both in terms of attendance and success levels and unfortunately Norwich is not one of them and never will be. A bleak assessment, I know, but realistic whatever the reaction to this post will be.

[National express super guard 0]

my apologies that this has been on mb before, just annoyed me that with current attendance the clubs size has never changed. Its not that long ago that attedance were that low we struggled to break even (late 90''s early 00''s) but since then the club has moved forward in terms of potential.I just wondered what other peoples views were, and everyone despite we8wba made sensible points. "crikey..." altho harsh, hit nail on the head, we aint a small club, I just like to think one day we will get the recognition we deserve

[kdncfc 0]

[quote user="Crikey..and with the outside of his foot"]

Blimey, this discussion has taken place on this MB so many times before. Norwich City is not a small club but it is perceived as being a friendly, family club in a remote part of the country populated by in-breds who have nothing better to do to occupy their time on Saturday afternoons than go to the local footbal club which is why Norwich get surprisingly high attendances. It is true that within the context of the last 20 years or so, attendances have peaked in recent years but this is likely to change as more and more fans become disillusioned with sustained mediocrity.

 

The other point is that there is a belief, well founded I think, that the catchment area does not comprise a big enough population to suggest that even with a larger ground capacity attendances can grow further. In other words, we will only ever be a medium sized club stuck out in the sticks and with low expectations of success. Investors are looking for clubs which are not currently realising their full potential both in terms of attendance and success levels and unfortunately Norwich is not one of them and never will be. A bleak assessment, I know, but realistic whatever the reaction to this post will be.

[/quote]

Are you saying that we don''t have the potential to get more than 25k. The only thing that has prevented us getting even bigger attendances in the last few years is the pathetically small stadium capacity, even in the championship a successful season would see us average 27-28k, a season in the prem would see an average of 32k with a bigger stadium. If we were a top half prem club like Bolton have been then 35k wouldn''t be impossible.

[kdncfc 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

[quote user="10 Bryceland"]I cannot recall anyone on the board or elsewhere referring to us as a small club recently.  In the past when this phrase has been used it has been taken out of context and used by anyone who wishes to berate the board and anyone else they disagree with.  we are a football club in a city with a catchement area of around 150, 00 set in a rural area with little public transport.  For whatever the reasons our support and season ticket renewal rate is amazing.  Is being prudent with money a bad thing?  Unlimited money does not guarantee success and brings it''s own problems. I find it arrogant that people constantly demand cash from the board.  Why should they put money in?  They are custodians of the club and invest time and experience in keeping us where we are and trying to get us into the First division.  Football goes in cycles and is a matter of luck as much as judgement.  Lets remain passionate about the canaries but can we change the record, move on and be constructive in both word and deed in support of the club we all love?[/quote]

How do you arrive at your 150,000 catchment area figure?  The proposed unitary authority will give greater Norwich a population figure of 300,000, the population of Norfolk is 830,000 and the club draw alot of support from beyond the county line- particularly Lowestoft/Waveney which has a population of 180,000.

The clubs catchment area is well over 1 million people with no real competition therefore our current support is potentially the tip of the iceberg.

[/quote] Spot on.

[nutty nigel 7,598]

10 Bryceland calls it right for me NESG. When we were in the Premiership we were a small club compared to the big clubs who stay there for ever and I don''t think anyone could argue with that. But we are not a small Championship club and I don''t think anyone believes different. What makes you think they do?

 

[AndyJR 0]

[quote user="we8wba"]

norwich are an average club in average league fact

your support is the only thing which gives you half a shout of being a "big club"

history is also a big factor, thats the only thing what keeps my club being above average in size

[/quote]What about the mighty Milk Cup.  You forget we won that sir.

[Mr.Carrow 378]

[quote user="Crikey..and with the outside of his foot"]

Blimey, this discussion has taken place on this MB so many times before. Norwich City is not a small club but it is perceived as being a friendly, family club in a remote part of the country populated by in-breds who have nothing better to do to occupy their time on Saturday afternoons than go to the local footbal club which is why Norwich get surprisingly high attendances. It is true that within the context of the last 20 years or so, attendances have peaked in recent years but this is likely to change as more and more fans become disillusioned with sustained mediocrity.

 

The other point is that there is a belief, well founded I think, that the catchment area does not comprise a big enough population to suggest that even with a larger ground capacity attendances can grow further. In other words, we will only ever be a medium sized club stuck out in the sticks and with low expectations of success. Investors are looking for clubs which are not currently realising their full potential both in terms of attendance and success levels and unfortunately Norwich is not one of them and never will be. A bleak assessment, I know, but realistic whatever the reaction to this post will be.

[/quote]

Absolute, complete rubbish.  The reason why we are still seen as a small club is the kind of ignorance you are displaying.  Norfolk and North Suffolk have a population well over 1 million and the club is in the regional capital with no other competition from other major clubs or sports.  Norwich isn`t a big City, but then most big Cities have several clubs all fighting for the same pool of support- we have a captive market.

If we don`t have a catchment area primed and ready to support an ambitious, growing club then no-one does.

[we8wba 0]

[quote user="Man-E-Faces"]Get a grip we8wba and stop living in the past! You are not a ''big team'' anymore. The last trophy you won was the Championship play off final in ''03, we won the title more recently that that. The one before that (correct me if i''m wrong) was the biggy, the Sherpa Van Trophy in 1988![/quote]

didnt say we were big team

we just slighty above average if you read my post

i class likes wigan n fulham bigger than us nowdays! history only takes you so far

otherwise liverpool still be england best team

[we8wba 0]

this not dig at norwich - it can also be used vs my own team

who bigger club sunderland or blackburn?

sunderland

bigger catchment area

average 20k more a game

blackburn

had european football

won prem league before sunderlands last major cup

 

so whos bigger? on your basis sunderland are correct?

[we8wba 0]

both you and I have to realise our clubs are very average! and i mean VERY AVERAGE!   i only said about wolves as we are slightly bigger club (not by much) due to history! but as i said history and tradition only get you so far

[chicken 0]

Its more about reputation than anything else - Norwich''s reputation doesn''t seem to stretch very far. Watch match of the day or any live match and they quote teams that players have played for previously but seem to forget about Norwich if they have played for us.It is south-east syndrome. If they haven''t heard of you down there you are not worth mentioning. That said stature also comes into it and Norwich are hardly a world renowned team with a past full of fantastic cup and league runs that caught the eye of the nation. The last trophy we won was more than 20 years ago and has had about as many new names as that too.

[Unlucky Fried Kitten 0]

[quote user="we8wba"]

norwich are an average club in average league fact

your support is the only thing which gives you half a shout of being a "big club"

history is also a big factor, thats the only thing what keeps my club being above average in size

[/quote]

Currently Wolves are a smaller club than City, we8wba, fact. When I say that, the only criteria I''m using is our superior support. There is no point in constantly looking back to the good times of the fifties or whatever when judging the size of a club. Yes, Wolves have enjoyed more success than City in their history, but there is no way that past success can be used as a measurement of  current size.

[we8wba 0]

[quote user="JaundicedJockGeorgy"][quote user="we8wba"]

norwich are an average club in average league fact

your support is the only thing which gives you half a shout of being a "big club"

history is also a big factor, thats the only thing what keeps my club being above average in size

[/quote]

Currently Wolves are a smaller club than City, we8wba, fact. When I say that, the only criteria I''m using is our superior support. There is no point in constantly looking back to the good times of the fifties or whatever when judging the size of a club. Yes, Wolves have enjoyed more success than City in their history, but there is no way that past success can be used as a measurement of  current size.

[/quote]

wolves average 24.5k

norwich average 25.5k

wolves spent considerably more within the last 15 season than norwich have (not spent wisely)

my next point and my strongest

07/08 season wolves 7th norwich 17th

06/07 season wolves 5th norwich 16th

05/06 season wolves 7th norwich 9th

04/05 norwich prem , wolves 7th

03/04 wolves prem

02/03 wolves 5th norwich 8th

01/02 wolves 3rd norwich 6th

 

now im not saying norwich are rubbish im just saying you average! my stats just proved wolves finished higher than norwich on 6/7 season with one wolves being relegated as norwich promoted!

now im not saying wolves are quality or so much superior to norwich

but face hard facts wolves are currently bigger due to similar attendeces, spent more money and higher positions

FACT

when norwich come above us when in same league you may have case but this was far as i could count back and im pretty sure we would finished above you in several more season before 01/02 season

quite frankly your living in the early 90s still!

[we8wba 0]

[quote user="JaundicedJockGeorgy"][quote user="we8wba"]

norwich are an average club in average league fact

your support is the only thing which gives you half a shout of being a "big club"

history is also a big factor, thats the only thing what keeps my club being above average in size

[/quote]

Currently Wolves are a smaller club than City, we8wba, fact. When I say that, the only criteria I''m using is our superior support. There is no point in constantly looking back to the good times of the fifties or whatever when judging the size of a club. Yes, Wolves have enjoyed more success than City in their history, but there is no way that past success can be used as a measurement of  current size.

[/quote]

current support is 1k more

you consider our catchement area has to fight with

wba, walsall, villa birmingham, coventry! and with manchester being 90mins away doesnt help

who have norwich got to battle for the locals to support?

[we8wba 0]

please answer my questions sensibly! i know it will prob end with us both disagreeing but im intrested for your responses into what i''ve said

cheers

[Beaker 0]

well you''re living in the midlands, so we know whos the winner there.