Norwich Player Pay Scale Next Season - Hypthotetical Discussion

[YankeeCanary 0]

If you were the CEO of Norwich City FC how would you structure the pay scale for players next season? How would you break it down between basic pay and performance? Let''s make some basic assumptions and see how each of us would go about setting a structure for an assumed player salary budget.

First of all, let''s make some assumptions about the total player salary budget for this season and assume it''s the same for next season. I read a comment from city angel on another thread that she had read the average norwich player wage per week is 5,000 pounds. Let''s assume a squad size of 25 players, which would equate to 6.5 million pounds annually this season. Let''s also assume an inflation increase to 6.8 million pounds next season. 

I''ll start by working with these assumptions. If someone has a much better sense of what the squad strength and average weekly wage is then please provide input so that ouyr base assumptions can be adjusted.

First of all, I would grade players into an A, B and C category with higher calibre players fitting into the A category and so on. I would assume a squad made up of 5 category A players, 10 category B players and 10 category C players. The category A and B players would be considered those who would likely be first choice to be suited up each week for the first team. I would start out with a premise that category A players would get 7,000 pounds per week, category B players 5,300 pounds per week and category C players 4,300 pounds per week.

I would then take 80% of the 6.8 million pounds which would be basic pay scale. The remaining 20% would be put into a performance pot and everyone would be set performance related objectives ( requires some good suggestions ) that would allow them to make more or less than their original 100% depending upon performance, which would also include number of appearances.

If I were the CEO I would then then set an additional amount of reserve against the total budget of 6.8 million if we make the playoffs. Arbitrarily, I would suggest 15%. If automatic promotion is achieved then I would have a reserve of 40% against the base 6.8 million. If automatic promotion was then achieved this would mean the category A players would be in a position to earn 9800 pounds per week, all things being equal, and so on.

I''m sure many of you can find issues with some of the assumptions but it would be interesting to hear others thoughts of how this could best be structured in such a way as to 1) motivate the squad on an incentive basis, 2) give the higher calibre players the sense that they can still do quite well despite there being a lower base pay and 3) allow management some flexibilty to work with the squad scale while having a high motivation factor in striving for promotion. 

 

[YankeeCanary 0]

Forgive spelling errors please, I was typing quickly ( for me, that is ).

[Mister Chops 7]

Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.

[I beat Atalanta 0]

Great Yankee.Now try and sign a player.

[chicken 0]

I know this is not totaly related but it may hint at something when it comes to the pay structure. Three of the higher earners we know about are Dion, Huckerby and Chris Martin (remember that?). One is retired, the other two may well be on their way. Some people have said that Dion and Huckerby are on around £10k a week, and I should imagine that will be the last few premiership waged players gone.

[ca 1]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.

[/quote]

 

What a silly reply to what could turn out to be an interesting thread ( which someone has put some time and effort to come up with)

[ca 1]

[quote user="chicken"]I know this is not totaly related but it may hint at something when it comes to the pay structure. Three of the higher earners we know about are Dion, Huckerby and Chris Martin (remember that?). One is retired, the other two may well be on their way. Some people have said that Dion and Huckerby are on around £10k a week, and I should imagine that will be the last few premiership waged players gone.
[/quote]

What makes you think that Martin is on anywhere like £10k a week? He signed his first proffessional contract in April 2007 so I''d be surprised if he''s on more than £3k pw if I had to guess which is a massive increase compared to what he was on before when he was on youth club wages.

 

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.[/quote]

 

What a silly reply to what could turn out to be an interesting thread ( which someone has put some time and effort to come up with)

[/quote]If you think speculating about wage structures and guessing what players might earn is a worthwhile use of a Saturday, go ahead and knock yourself out.[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.[/quote]

 

What a silly reply to what could turn out to be an interesting

thread ( which someone has put some time and effort to come up with)

[/quote]

If you think speculating about financial models based on guesses as to how it might work, and guesses about what players like Chris Martin may or may not earn, and you think this is a good use of your Saturday morning, then frankly I pity you.

[Chabal 0]

To get rid of Chris Martin, someone would need to take on his wages , which is exceedingly unlikely. Norwich are stuck with him until the end of his contract..

[Buncey 1]

[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.[/quote]

 

What a silly reply to what could turn out to be an interesting thread ( which someone has put some time and effort to come up with)

[/quote]If you think speculating about wage structures and guessing what players might earn is a worthwhile use of a Saturday, go ahead and knock yourself out.[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.[/quote]

 

What a silly reply to what could turn out to be an interesting

thread ( which someone has put some time and effort to come up with)

[/quote]

If you think speculating about financial models based on guesses as to how it might work, and guesses about what players like Chris Martin may or may not earn, and you think this is a good use of your Saturday morning, then frankly I pity you.

[/quote]Bye then.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Fellas"][quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.[/quote]

 

What a silly reply to what could turn out to be an interesting thread ( which someone has put some time and effort to come up with)

[/quote]If you think speculating about wage structures and guessing what players might earn is a worthwhile use of a Saturday, go ahead and knock yourself out.[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="Mister Chops"]Gee, you must be the life and soul of the American party.[/quote]

 

What a silly reply to what could turn out to be an interesting

thread ( which someone has put some time and effort to come up with)

[/quote]

If you think speculating about financial models based on guesses as to how it might work, and guesses about what players like Chris Martin may or may not earn, and you think this is a good use of your Saturday morning, then frankly I pity you.[/quote]Bye then.[/quote]I will actually apologise to Yankee because I have contributed nothing to this thread and should have left it alone without posting.I will also apologise to you, City Angel, as you didn''t deserve that.Apologies.

[YankeeCanary 0]

Bump.....would like to see some discussion on this from people who are willing to add some value. This can help a lot of us think about what it will cost to attract, retain and motivate players in our challenge to move higher. My numbers may look low to some or innapropriately weighted but that''s what can make for an interesting discussion. Hope to see some responses from some of the more knowledgeable posters.

[Mister Chops 7]

So, having been a knobend yesterday, I think I''ll offer some suggestions by way of contrition.

Performance related objectivesThe classic approach is for strikers to have a goal bonus and defenders a clean sheet bonus, and I suppose Midfielders get watered-down versions of both.In fact, each player should have a goal bonus (even the keeper), and the clean sheet bonus should be heaviest for the keeper.  Would we consider assist bonuses?Probably setting targets for each player at the start of the season would be necessary - Key Performance Indicators, if you like.  It''s hard to quantify how "well" someone has played (as we have seen from the player ratings threads) though coaches etc. would have input, but things which cannot be disputed are:GoalsAssistsMinutes on pitchYellow CardsRed CardsThe hidden softer skilled "stuff" would be how well they perform in training, how hard they work, willingness to adapt (if you have a right winger who is forced to play right back through injury to others, is it fair then to penalise him financially if he''s not very good?)Might they use some of the OPTA Index stats also?I would suggest 25% might be optimal for the weekly bonus payments.

On a side note, did anyone else see John Arne Riise''s payslip back in November (I think)?http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/11/01/ufnliver101.xml

[YankeeCanary 0]

Well done Mister Chops. This is not a good day to hope for input on this subject but, during the next few days, I''m hopeful to see input from a variety of posters including Mr. Carrow. How much do we think our total wage bill should be and what ideas do we have for how should it be structured for the reasons already stated?

[Mister Chops 7]

Yes.  I also forgot the overall "Win Bonus", of course, which is at the team level (e.g. 15%) but may be a percentage of salary and so varies amongst individual players.  This would make sense, as you would expect your Category A players to be more influential than your Category B players (not withstanding the bonuses for individual performance which means a B player could still shine.)So in your salary matrix, perhaps we need to think about:Base Pay 100% (will always be paid, bottom line for financials)Team Performance (Win): x (say 12.5)% (would need to be modelled on good season i.e. assume Top 6 finish, 20 wins)Individual Performance: y (say 12.5)%To a ceiling of 120% or 125% of salary.

[YankeeCanary 0]

"Bump".

It would be interesting, as we now head toward a new season, to see what the input would be from some of the more knowledgeable posters as to what our likely TOTAL wage bill should be next season and, given that, what level we could afford to pay in wagesfor different quality player levels. 

[James Kent 0]

It''s very hard to answer because we don''t know what the players get paid.  What I would say is that certain players should have a price ceiling.  If we sign Martin Taylor it would be quite wrong to have him paid the same as Gary Doherty because there is a big difference in quality.  We should be prepared to pay good wages to very talented players which may be above a set budget or price ceiling.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Jim Kent"]It''s very hard to answer because we don''t know what the players get paid.  What I would say is that certain players should have a price ceiling.  If we sign Martin Taylor it would be quite wrong to have him paid the same as Gary Doherty because there is a big difference in quality.  We should be prepared to pay good wages to very talented players which may be above a set budget or price ceiling.[/quote]That''s very subjective though, Jim.  Doc was PotY for City not so long back...  It''s more likely that as with any job, when you move to a new employer you get a pay rise.  In this instance, newness probably counts for more than quality.

[gremlin griggs 0]

have you forgot we still have adam drury another quiet high earner

[Mello Yello 2,303]

[quote user="gremlin griggs"]have you forgot we still have adam drury another quiet high earner[/quote]

I think Drury will be a squad player (has Glenn actually seen him play for us?).....Like other playing staff that have been unfortunately released, I think Adam''s future could be elsewhere.

 

[James Kent 0]

Interesting viewpoint, however I would think Martin Taylor would earn less here than at Brum.  As for Doherty well I don''t think we should pay based on past glories, but on present ability.  The mere fact that Gay Doherty contract is taking a while may suggest that Roeder has set a specific limit on the Doc.  Which is fair enough because he may be little more than backup, so would be easily replacable with a loan player.  I would give Doherty one final offer and if he doesn''t accept it release him.  There is no point paying over the odds for someone who is at best an average championship player.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Jim Kent"]Interesting viewpoint, however I would think Martin Taylor would earn less here than at Brum.  As for Doherty well I don''t think we should pay based on past glories, but on present ability.  The mere fact that Gay Doherty contract is taking a while may suggest that Roeder has set a specific limit on the Doc.  Which is fair enough because he may be little more than backup, so would be easily replacable with a loan player.  I would give Doherty one final offer and if he doesn''t accept it release him.  There is no point paying over the odds for someone who is at best an average championship player.[/quote]Agree with that; I can always get a Shackell avatar.  I like the Doc more than most here but would concede his limitations.

[Faded Jaded Semi Plastic SOB 1,041]

I would also bring into the equation what my objectives as a CEO are, do I want automatic promotion, or do I want year on year improvement over say three years with a promotion push at the end of the third year. I would then look at what we had achieved under the current investment regime. I would speak to the manager, and using your A, B, C, categories ask how many of each he would require for an automatic promotion push and similar for a year on year improvement. Based on this I would make a judgement on whether £6.8 million was enough to meet my/my managers objectives. Any pay regime would have to have an element of performance related pay and bonuses based on league position/promotion.

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

category A and B players would be considered those who would likely be first choice to be suited up each week for the first team. I would start out with a premise that category A players would get 7,000 pounds per week, category B players 5,300 pounds per week and category C players 4,300 pounds per week.

I would then take 80% of the 6.8 million pounds which would be basic pay scale. The remaining 20% would be put into a performance pot and everyone would be set performance related objectives ( requires some good suggestions ) that would allow them to make more or less than their original 100% depending upon performance, which would also include number of appearances.

If I were the CEO I would then then set an additional amount of reserve against the total budget of 6.8 million if we make the playoffs. Arbitrarily, I would suggest 15%. If automatic promotion is achieved then I would have a reserve of 40% against the base 6.8 million. If automatic promotion was then achieved this would mean the category A players would be in a position to earn 9800 pounds per week, all things being equal, and so on.

I''m sure many of you can find issues with some of the assumptions but it would be interesting to hear others thoughts of how this could best be structured in such a way as to 1) motivate the squad on an incentive basis, 2) give the higher calibre players the sense that they can still do quite well despite there being a lower base pay and 3) allow management some flexibilty to work with the squad scale while having a high motivation factor in striving for promotion. 

[/quote]

Problem is the average championship wage was around £6000 I beleive.  Our wages would be even less enticing than before resulting in a lesser calibre of player signing for us.  A big one will be to see where Wes Hoolahan ends up.  A fair few teams in this division will be clamouring for his signature - will we get it?

[Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"]

It would be interesting, as we now head toward a new season, to see what the input would be from some of the more knowledgeable posters as to what our likely TOTAL wage bill should be next season and, given that, what level we could afford to pay in wagesfor different quality player levels. 

[/quote]

 I would also add that Doc was probably on a starting salary above the base rate of your Grade A banding.  Fozzy was rumoured to be on £6000 a week, but will probably be demanding more as he is now First Team Captain.

[YankeeCanary 0]

Citizen Journal Foghorn wrote:

( Quote )

"Problem is the average championship wage was around £6000 I beleive.  Our wages would be even less enticing than before resulting in a lesser calibre of player signing for us.  A big one will be to see where Wes Hoolahan ends up.  A fair few teams in this division will be clamouring for his signature - will we get it?"

( Quote )

Thanks for your input Foghorn. Your belief of an average Championship wage of 6000 pounds/week is 20% higher than what cityangel said she read. Where is Mr. Carrow in this discussion. What are some of the real numbers Mr. Carrow? What do you think we need to spend on total wages to help propel us into being a contender and how would you allocate the breakdown of those wages for different calibre of players? Good point by SOB by the way.

 

[blahblahblah 2]

Don''t know if this helps Yankee, as it''s old news now, however.

The Highlights of the Deloitte review of football finance state :

Championship clubs’ total wage costs for 2005/06 increased by 5% to £228m with the overall wages/turnover ratio remaining relatively stable at 72%.

228 / 24 = 9.5 million per club (mean average)

That''s not to say that 9.5 million would make a club competitive.  The top spenders are probably spending 12-15 million.  However, the tightness of this league last season, caused by the talent drain into the Premiership, is likely to continue into next season. Loans will also be more scarce from the Premiership now that the subs benches are 2 bigger there.  I suspect that who you know will become more important than what you can pay, as the best Prem reserve talent will go to the people with the best contacts.

Glenn Roeder seems to have very good contacts, and for this reason I feel optimistic for next season.