Is it me....

[Ivana_rubyatitz 6]

...or has our recent upturn in fortunes coincided with a decidedly unpleasant bout of in-fighting on here? 

First we have criticism of the free bet thread (a good cause if ever there was one); then the Percy Positive backlash against Smudger (on balance deserved); next we get to witness Smudger and Arthur fighting over when to protest and when not to protest; poor old Wiz gets a kicking for the terrible crime of daring to have a laugh (and in some people''s eyes over doing it a bit); and now we get some particularly distasteful examples of overt racism in a thread about a footballer being deported.

Let''s all just chill out a bit, concentrate on the football and hopefully another three points on Saturday. 

Peace and love to all [}]

[blahblahblah 2]

No more so than when you put a bunch of grumpy, opinionated, (mainly) old buggers in the same space.

It''d be boring if everyone agreed.  And now we''re winning, we can''t argue about the football can we ? [:)]

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="Pboro_Canary"]

...or has our recent upturn in fortunes coincided with a decidedly unpleasant bout of in-fighting on here? 

First we have criticism of the free bet thread (a good cause if ever there was one); then the Percy Positive backlash against Smudger (on balance deserved); next we get to witness Smudger and Arthur fighting over when to protest and when not to protest; poor old Wiz gets a kicking for the terrible crime of daring to have a laugh (and in some people''s eyes over doing it a bit); and now we get some particularly distasteful examples of overt racism in a thread about a footballer being deported.

Let''s all just chill out a bit, concentrate on the football and hopefully another three points on Saturday. 

Peace and love to all [}]

[/quote]

I would imagine taking into account your avatar that .......yes, it could be you![;)]

One love.

OTBC

 

 

[ricky knight 0]

where is the rascism mate, people not wanting too many immigrants do not have to be rascist the world has gone PC mad. The same way people wanting this board out are not binners or traitors its just a different view, might not be popular but just a view, i think tolerance on this forum is called for thats all.

[ricky knight 0]

No more so than when you put a bunch of grumpy, opinionated, (mainly) old buggers in the same space,

 

Surely that must be ageist in this PC world of ours, be careful i will call the PC police.[:D]

[BigFish 1,988]

[quote user="ricky knight"]where is the rascism mate, people not wanting too many immigrants do not have to be rascist the world has gone PC mad. The same way people wanting this board out are not binners or traitors its just a different view, might not be popular but just a view, i think tolerance on this forum is called for thats all.[/quote]

He is talking to you, Ricky.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="ricky knight"]

Surely that must be ageist in this PC world of ours, be careful i will call the PC police.[:D]

[/quote]

Come on then Ricky, explain to me what ''PC'' is. I could do with a laugh [:D].

[Ivana_rubyatitz 6]

[quote user="ricky knight"]where is the rascism mate, people not wanting too many immigrants do not have to be rascist the world has gone PC mad. The same way people wanting this board out are not binners or traitors its just a different view, might not be popular but just a view, i think tolerance on this forum is called for thats all.[/quote]

I couldn''t agree more with the last part of your post Ricky and don''t want to reopen debate that already runs on other threads here. 

I started the thread last night whilst a bit peed off at the general tone of things on here lately - hence the examples I used.  On a personal level I find some of the comments about the lazy nature of foreign labour (and also generalisations about the indigenous workforce to be fair) inaccurate and unnecessary, and the attempt to portray the BNP as somehow proud and noble champions of the British people rather than the bunch of nasty small minded bigots preying on fears and frustrations that they are both niave and offensive.  I think the reaction to the hex threads is riduculously OTT. 

Yes, the board would be dull if we all agreed on everything and different views are essential to having a lively forum - it''s just I can''t quite understand why people over the last few days seem so determined to turn on each other at a time when we appear to have more cause for optimism than for some months. 

Maybe I am "PC mad", but if that means I believe in treating people with fairness and dignity, respecting them and not being personally abusive then I guess I will happily sign up to the label.

[Graham Humphrey 13]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="ricky knight"]

Surely that must be ageist in this PC world of ours, be careful i will call the PC police.[:D]

[/quote]

Come on then Ricky, explain to me what ''PC'' is. I could do with a laugh [:D].

[/quote]

PC World? Isn''t that a computer store?

[One Flew Over... 33]

PC is anyone who is more left wing than yourself, and facism is anyone more right wing than yourself..

[we8wba 0]

[quote user="Graham Humphrey"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="ricky knight"]

Surely that must be ageist in this PC world of ours, be careful i will call the PC police.[:D]

[/quote]

Come on then Ricky, explain to me what ''PC'' is. I could do with a laugh [:D].

[/quote]

PC World? Isn''t that a computer store?

[/quote]

pc a copper isnt he, just guessing by in hollyoaks they mentioned pc valentine so guessing pc isnt pc world but name for a pig ;-)

anyways agree with the 1st post of this thread, norwich have upturned their fortunes and are starting to look like the old norwich of a few years back

but to many people are looking to get one of someone, or to start a protest or a walk, or just beeing blantely rude to people who may not know something on a topic. i know its a forum and if everyone agreed it would be very boring but come on people stop trying to be negative, its christmas you know

[ricky knight 0]

[quote user="BigFish"]

[quote user="ricky knight"]where is the rascism mate, people not wanting too many immigrants do not have to be rascist the world has gone PC mad. The same way people wanting this board out are not binners or traitors its just a different view, might not be popular but just a view, i think tolerance on this forum is called for thats all.[/quote]

He is talking to you, Ricky.

[/quote]

then he should watch what he is saying, i have a black bro, black sister and nephews and nieces, did not want to mention it but just shows how ignorant both sides of the argument are. I want legal immigrants, not illegals does not make me a rascist and even legals numbers should be monitored. Dont judge people by a forum, its just that a forum.

[renegade tootsie 0]

The thread in questions definitely contains an element of racism for the sake of it.  Everyone is concerned about immigration but as usual the right wingers spin it to attack everyone who was not at the battle of Hastings.

Receiving tolerance would usually mean demonstrating some.

[quote user="ricky knight"]where is the rascism mate, people not wanting too many immigrants do not have to be rascist the world has gone PC mad. The same way people wanting this board out are not binners or traitors its just a different view, might not be popular but just a view, i think tolerance on this forum is called for thats all.[/quote]

[ricky knight 0]

Show me where i have been rascist in any of my posts.I have no problem with legal immigrants as i have said, why should illegals jump the queue, i also believe that if immigrants come here they should be hired for ability not cheapness nothing rascist there, i believe if two english guys were up for the job the same criteria should exist. I certainly dont go with the theory english people are lazy and wont do the work, is that not bordering on a rascist comment.

[kick it off 1,956]

But the problem is Ricky, you don''t seem to even contemplate the point that maybe the immigrants ARE being hired for their ability, not their price. I don''t recall anyone saying English people are lazy and wont do the work. I think what you are doing is twisting and skewing my comments to suit your argument. What I actually said was in response to you saying your mates were undercut by Poles and couldnt find work, that there were plenty of menial jobs out there and maybe they should take one whilst looking for something more suitable. That is not racist, I have just been unemployed and I went and got a menial job while i am (still) looking for something more suitable. I take a pride in paying my own way.I certainly never insinuated the English nation was lazy as that is simply not my belief. I am disappointed that you are trying to stir up an argument by misleading people about my comments.

[ricky knight 0]

but can you prove they are being hired on ability. i am open to persuasion but my Bro''s as i have said very high up in construction tell me it happens why would they lie .As for doing dirty jobs been their done it mate as have my mates you aint the only martyr in the world. but why should they when it took apprenticships and years of knowledge to learn their trade. I can understand when their industry comes to an end but there jobs are still there. what is the matter in believing charity begins at home, lets get all our guys working then allow people in for the jobs left over, it works in other countries without the rascism card being pulled.

[kick it off 1,956]

I wasn''t trying to martyr myself, just telling it how i see it. If they''ve done these long years of apprenticeships and gathering knowledge in their skilled trades, how come Eastern Europeans can apparently just hop in and get the jobs as they do it at £1.50 less per hour? that doesn''t make sense to me. Surely if it took that much graft to learn the trade, then regardless of price, quality would be paramount? Don''t get me wrong Ricky, whilst i don''t neccessarily agree with your views, i respect them and i understand why you would hold them.I''m just trying to offer it from the other side. somewhere in the middle, as ever lies the truth.Hypothetically, If there was a Pole who was technically better, and more skilled and efficient in his trade, would you hire him or the Englishman who was less skilled? Would price have any bearing if the skills ratio stayed the same? eg if the pole was cheaper, same price etcI don''t want to pass judgement, i am genuinely interested to know.

[ricky knight 0]

i am saying if my son was looking for a job was skilled at it and i was looking for someone, my son would get the job first, charity begins at home, if another job was available then i would consider an outsider. I do in fact give my family work first in my business what is so terrible about that. Go to many countries they look after their own first, to me thats right not rascist, i am not saying dont give immigrants jobs but lets empty our dole queues first and the right numbers not the cooked.

As for my mates its all about money make no mistake, look at all the agencies that have now popped up, tell me that aint cheap labour i ran two in the 80s. The trouble with brits we fought hard for a decent living why should we take pay cuts to compete with cheap labour. We should reward hard work not tale the pxss.

[kick it off 1,956]

The agencies have to be contracted by the companies. This means the company is actively seeking to lighten its financial load. It is exactly the same as outsourcing. Like the call centres which all went to India. So why is it that it is those who are here and paying taxes who are undercutting everyone, whilst call centres in India get away unscathed. Is it out of sight, out of mind?? Brits have as much of an opportunity with agencies as foreigners do and will usually get preference in jobs due to the language issue. Believe it or not, most immigrants would take more money if they were offered it. If they are offered x amount of money to do a job and that is cheaper than the Brit''s price, is that the company''s fault for exploiting the migrant workers or is that the immigrant undercutting the British?

[ricky knight 0]

my point is cheap labour make agencies thats why there are so many. Of course these people would take more money, thats my point i am not blaming them its the system and the company owners who are making dough at the expense of these immigrants and moving aside the brit workers.

I work the holiday camps doing cabaret have for 20+ years nearly all the staff are now eastern european, you telling me all of a sudden brits dont want these jobs after 60 odd years, its about saving money, bottom line.

Its been said earlier on here the truth is somewhere in the middle and we can go back and forth all night so lets agree to disagree.

[kick it off 1,956]

Funnily enough, i also worked in the holiday camp industry. for the past two years. PGL - so technically adventure camp i guess, all the staff there were british with a few south africans, new zealanders and aussies. The kitchen staff mainly comprised of Spanish. There was not an Eastern European in sight!! These staff all worked for poor money, myself included, 1st season you only earn £320 per month (food and accomodation is however already paid.).Weird how two sides of the same industry can be so different (no sarcasm in there, genuine observation!). Im assuming you do Butlins/Pontins etc?May be different on their side of it but i don''t think PGL could possibly save any more money!!Anyway Ricky, I think it is time to draw this thread to a close, it''s been a pleasure discussing with you.

[Indy_Bones 441]

[quote user="kick it off"]
If they are offered x amount of money to do a job and that is cheaper than the Brit''s price, is that the company''s fault for exploiting the migrant workers or is that the immigrant undercutting the British? [/quote]

You could argue that it''s neither.

Whilst like many others, I''m all for cultural diversity and integrated workplaces with people from all over the globe, I don''t want this as much, if it means that UK born people are being left unemployed or homeless so that we can bring this diversity.

If you want to emigrate to many other countries such as the US, Canada, Australia etc, in order to obtain a work visa you have to demonstrate that you will be bringing a skill or knowledge that is not readily available to them from their current population base. So if you''re a specialist in IT and there is a desperate shortage of this in the other country, you get a visa, if not - tough.

I don''t see what''s wrong with this. It means that the national population of the country is given first option on the jobs available, and if there''s no-one there with the talent - or willingness to do this, then they will look to bring it in.

We have no system like this as such, and unfortunately, what we are often coming across is that people are gaining entry to this country, offering nothing we can''t already get from our current population base, and often being given things in preference to those from this country.

I''ve got friends who have been on waiting lists at their local council for over 3 years now, and during that period a large number of homes have been provided to immigrants in favour of them. People who have never contributed to the system which provides these homes are being given first option over those who have lived, worked and paid towards this their whole life - how is that fair? Is there any wonder there''s resentment at times?

Even worse are the illegal immigrants who simply hide out on a cross-channel ferry, have no skills or anything of that nature to offer, and upon entry to the UK are given benefits and housing regardless. Really glad to see my taxes being used for this, particularly when we are constantly hearing reports about a lack of funding for things like education, healthcare and local services.

Try reading some of the reports on people who have been granted work visa''s and then tell me it makes sense. Like the Georgian roofer who had no hands and was unable to climb a ladder to get onto a roof, never mind hold the tools to perform the repair work. Or how about the Romanian electrician who was totally blind, and was incredibly simply touching wires to tell which one was the live one...

It''s these sort of things we should be clamping down on and saying no to, not to hard working individuals who come here legally to provide much needed skills. Unfortunately when you raise an issue about one side of the argument, you instantly get accused of being a racist, nazi or foaming at the mouth member of the national front.

Immigration is a big issue which the government should be dealing with far better, so that sweeping generalisation are not being made about all immigrants, and that UK citizens are considered a priority first whilst still looking to maintain diversity.

[ricky knight 0]

Try warners, british holidays, as well as the ones you have said, suggest you dont work in this industry if you dispute this its common knowledge, cleaners, kitchen staff, bar staff are all being taken on. Anyway as you say its been a pleasure, subject closed.