Have we fallen at all?

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

2 hours ago, ricardo said:

Based on what evidence?

 

The evidence of our ticket office. They tell me they could have sold 60,000 tickets for a League 1 game against Leeds more than 10 years ago. 

The following clubs would sell 7,500 tickets minimum for a game at Carrow Road 

Arsenal 

Spurs

West Ham 

Chelsea 

Manchester United 

Manchester City 

Liverpool 

Newcastle 

Ipswich 

We had an attendance of 37,500 for a League game against Crystal Palace 50 years ago. That was almost entirely Norwich supporters. The population of Norfolk has subsequently doubled and the demand to watch the 'big' teams is huge. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,931]

3 minutes ago, Besthorpe-48 said:

Good to see this thread has generated what seems to me to be a really interesting discussion

So I have done a bit more analysis based on dividing our 96 seasons into 12 8s with the following and may be surprising results.

1921 to 1932 avg position 71st = 3rd in league 2 I modern parlance

1933 to 1950 51st 7th in league 1

1951 to 1962 53rd

1963 to 1974 28th 8th in champs = today

1975 to 1986 16th

1987 to 1998 21st

1999 to 2010 30th due to year in league 1

2011 to date 21st.

So the best period on that analysis was 1975 to 1986.

Interesting

Eventually I will work out the best decade especially if it keeps raining and the golf course is closed!

Thanks for that. Saunders changed everything. 

[essex canary 496]

40 minutes ago, Besthorpe-48 said:

Good to see this thread has generated what seems to me to be a really interesting discussion

So I have done a bit more analysis based on dividing our 96 seasons into 12 8s with the following and may be surprising results.

1921 to 1932 avg position 71st = 3rd in league 2 I modern parlance

1933 to 1950 51st 7th in league 1

1951 to 1962 53rd

1963 to 1974 28th 8th in champs = today

1975 to 1986 16th

1987 to 1998 21st

1999 to 2010 30th due to year in league 1

2011 to date 21st.

So the best period on that analysis was 1975 to 1986.

Interesting

Eventually I will work out the best decade especially if it keeps raining and the golf course is closed!

Best decade with a small cheat 1985-1995.

[Tetteys Jig 830]

I think we are about where we should be. Still though, I’m a bit sore at how everything in the club turns into absolute amateur hour whenever we’ve recently been in the prem. Little old Norwich, if you will.

It has felt like we’ve paid the price upon promotion for having a big wage bill/ bonuses to pay out since that’s what we budgeted for meaning we have little room to swap things up to go at survival which demands a far more pragmatic style than we would prefer. That’s the problems with being a yo-yo side.

Compare that to Luton who went up with a tiny budget, it left them room to buy some players suited to battling it out in the bottom half of the prem.

We then also suffer with reputation when compared to the likes of Leeds who got promoted and immediately attracted a seasoned Spain international £30m striker to join them. We’d never be able to do that without paying them through the nose and even then, I doubt they’d really be prepared to give 100%
 

What we need to find is some strategy to get through this. We sort of had it with Lambert/Hughton where we had an established side that had grown together and been largely uninterrupted for a couple of seasons. It meant the side was greater than the sum of its parts. The likes of Grant Holt and Russell Martin steady away in the prem in mid table when in reality they were upper championship players at best.

if we don’t go up then it’s bye bye Sargent and Rowe and Sara and we have to spin the wheel and sign multiple replacements to try exceed what they managed. 

Edited February 22 by Tetteys Jig

[Monty13 2,235]

1 hour ago, lake district canary said:

My view is that it isn't terrible given the circumstances. It was a rough end to a PL season because of lockdown, then a superb season to get us back to the PL - and then another bum deal on circumstances.  Even if we had decent enough players and a settled team going into that second season, it would have been difficult enough, but we didn't, we didn't even have Nornann and Kabak to start with, after the covid truncated pre-season.

The bare "6 wins in 49" thing ignores so many things that make that stat almost meaningless. 

 

 

 

It was objectively terrible. No one is arguing there wasn’t mitigation.

[shefcanary 2,410]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Thanks for that. Saunders changed everything. 

I'd say the distinct phases of the club were:

1902 - 1905 - The amateur days

1906 - 1934 - The professional beginnings and the Nest

1935 - 1959 - The move to Carrow Road and "were it not for the War" we'd avoided the catastrophe, but missed out on the giant killing!

1960 - 1971 - Finding our feet in the 2nd until enter Saunders

1972 - 1993 - Finally scrapping at or around the top table

1994 - 2009 - Mediocrity in the 2nd tier before catastrophic shock

2010 - 2024 - the top 26 club (1p5wich were ****e) years  

2024 - [       ] - The Attanasio years ...?

😉 

Edited February 22 by shefcanary

[Robert N. LiM 4,386]

4 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

1972 - 1993 - Finally scrapping at or around the top table

Think I might split that into two:

1972-1985 first steps in the top division and League Cup success

1986-1993 High-water mark of three top-five finishes, two FA Cup semi-finals and European football

 

Great list, though.

 

[shefcanary 2,410]

1 minute ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Think I might split that into two:

1972-1985 first steps in the top division and League Cup success

1986-1993 High-water mark of three top-five finishes, two FA Cup semi-finals and European football

 

Great list, though.

 

Agreed, that probably is better split.

[ricardo 7,395]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

The evidence of our ticket office. They tell me they could have sold 60,000 tickets for a League 1 game against Leeds more than 10 years ago. 

The following clubs would sell 7,500 tickets minimum for a game at Carrow Road 

Arsenal 

Spurs

West Ham 

Chelsea 

Manchester United 

Manchester City 

Liverpool 

Newcastle 

Ipswich 

We had an attendance of 37,500 for a League game against Crystal Palace 50 years ago. That was almost entirely Norwich supporters. The population of Norfolk has subsequently doubled and the demand to watch the 'big' teams is huge. 

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer facts to speculation and hearsay from someone at the ticket office.

There have only ever been five attendances at Carrow Road of over 40k and they were all between 1950 and 1967 and were all F.A.Cup games against bigger clubs or clubs from higher leagues.

The highest ever League attendance was 37,863 in 1948 and that was in the old Third Div South. The highest ever Div 1 attendance was 36,688 in 1973. In total there have only ever been nine League attendances over 35k in our entire history

The population of Norfolk was certainly smaller then and the make up of the crowd was somewhat different from todays demographics. The twenty or so years after WW2 are usually where you will find the record attendances for most clubs in the Football League for several very obvious reasons. 

1. Mass employment in factories and offices and a working week that often included Saturday mornings. Men left off work, went to the pub and on to the match.

2. Apart from cinema's and pubs there were few other diversions, no out of town shopping centres or leisure complexes.

3. Football was a relatively cheap form of entertainment and well within the affordable range of most working people.

Nowadays there are many other diversions for people to follow on weekends and football attendance is no longer a mainly working class passtime so I doubt we will ever see the mass attendance figures that were common in the 1945-1975 period ever again.

I would love to see a 35k capacity stadium but I don't think it would be filled very often. In any event it won't ever happen in my lifetime so its not something I need to worry about.

A 35k capacity stadium would be nice to have but the reason we don't have one is that those with the purse strings have done the sums and have come to the conclusion that it just doesn't add up financially.

 

[king canary 7,609]

2 hours ago, The Bunny said:

I beg to differ. I don't think you'll find a more indicative statistic of performance at the top level. 

Obviously, context matters too, but the stat is hardly meaningless. 

Yeah I really can't think of any context that would make a win % of 12% and a PPG rate of 0.5 not terrible. 

Again, I can't agree with this idea that he couldn't have done any more when we're seeing Rob Edwards taking this Luton team and making it competitive, Thomas Frank establishing Brentford in the Premier League or Gary O'Neil keeping a largely rubbish Bournemouth team up with room to spare.

[king canary 7,609]

1 hour ago, Monty13 said:

It was objectively terrible. No one is arguing there wasn’t mitigation.

Steve Kean is widely considered an absolute joke as a Premier League manager. He has more than double the win percentage and points per game of Farke in the top flight. It is mad anyone can try and claim his record in the top flight is anything but dreadful.

[ricardo 7,395]

3 minutes ago, king canary said:

Steve Kean is widely considered an absolute joke as a Premier League manager. He has more than double the win percentage and points per game of Farke in the top flight. It is mad anyone can try and claim his record in the top flight is anything but dreadful.

I expect Farkes figures will look a lot better after next season.

[The Bunny 310]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I expect Farkes figures will look a lot better after next season.

He might have learned some lessons of course. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that turns out. 

[king canary 7,609]

2 hours ago, The Bunny said:

He might have learned some lessons of course. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that turns out. 

He definitely has- his Leeds team are noticeably different in style to us or Gladbach.