Negativity v Accountability

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

After Delias comments at the AGM about there being 20% of supporters who are apparently negative. It really got me thinking is it really negative to simply criticise someone or is it most likely a drive or desire to hold people accountable for their role at the club. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t inherently make them negative. 
 

For me negativity from a fan would be complaining when things are going well. If you’re 1st or 2nd in the league and there are disgruntled fans that are calling for a manager to be sacked that would surely be negative. However when things are going badly for the club surely it’s the role of the fans to be holding those in power at the club to a higher standard? I would argue that when things are going badly it isn’t negative at all to show your displeasure at that. If anything it’s a canary in a coal mine sort of situation. If the Barclay are loud and proud at games, they are obviously pleased with what they are seeing. However if they are booing there is obviously a problem somewhere. I have been going to Carrow Road for almost 40 years and I don’t think I’ve ever heard the crowd boo a side that didn’t really deserve it. I’m can not think of a single manager who managed to survive long once the boos started. Worthy probably hung on the longest. 

[S_81 829]

13 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

After Delias comments at the AGM about there being 20% of supporters who are apparently negative. It really got me thinking is it really negative to simply criticise someone or is it most likely a drive or desire to hold people accountable for their role at the club. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t inherently make them negative. 
 

For me negativity from a fan would be complaining when things are going well. If you’re 1st or 2nd in the league and there are disgruntled fans that are calling for a manager to be sacked that would surely be negative. However when things are going badly for the club surely it’s the role of the fans to be holding those in power at the club to a higher standard? I would argue that when things are going badly it isn’t negative at all to show your displeasure at that. If anything it’s a canary in a coal mine sort of situation. If the Barclay are loud and proud at games, they are obviously pleased with what they are seeing. However if they are booing there is obviously a problem somewhere. I have been going to Carrow Road for almost 40 years and I don’t think I’ve ever heard the crowd boo a side that didn’t really deserve it. I’m can not think of a single manager who managed to survive long once the boos started. Worthy probably hung on the longest. 

There’s plenty to complain about, and plenty complaining. She’s either naive or ignorant or both if she can’t that. It’s relative, of course. Other teams are in far worse positions. But we’ve regressed, and due to the poor decision making of her and others at the club. Other clubs are in a position that we could have been as a result. 
Sadly there’s still too many happy clappers at Carrow Road that lead to her thinking that. It’s in part a reason why Wagner is still employed. 

[Sufyellow 222]

25 minutes ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

After Delias comments at the AGM about there being 20% of supporters who are apparently negative. It really got me thinking is it really negative to simply criticise someone or is it most likely a drive or desire to hold people accountable for their role at the club. Just because you don’t agree with someone doesn’t inherently make them negative. 
 

For me negativity from a fan would be complaining when things are going well. If you’re 1st or 2nd in the league and there are disgruntled fans that are calling for a manager to be sacked that would surely be negative. However when things are going badly for the club surely it’s the role of the fans to be holding those in power at the club to a higher standard? I would argue that when things are going badly it isn’t negative at all to show your displeasure at that. If anything it’s a canary in a coal mine sort of situation. If the Barclay are loud and proud at games, they are obviously pleased with what they are seeing. However if they are booing there is obviously a problem somewhere. I have been going to Carrow Road for almost 40 years and I don’t think I’ve ever heard the crowd boo a side that didn’t really deserve it. I’m can not think of a single manager who managed to survive long once the boos started. Worthy probably hung on the longest. 

No one turns up and boos the team coming  on the pitch. I personally am very loud all game in a positive manner. I used to moan to my daughter and friend,  but now we smile and laugh because it's that bad and the mistakes are always the same. I will voice my opinion at the end if its that bad. But I turn up in hope the next game and do the same again.  

[nutty nigel 7,584]

2 hours ago, S_81 said:

There’s plenty to complain about, and plenty complaining. She’s either naive or ignorant or both if she can’t that. It’s relative, of course. Other teams are in far worse positions. But we’ve regressed, and due to the poor decision making of her and others at the club. Other clubs are in a position that we could have been as a result. 
Sadly there’s still too many happy clappers at Carrow Road that lead to her thinking that. It’s in part a reason why Wagner is still employed. 

Would that be 80% or 20% Happy Clappers?

[Yellow and Green 334]

@By Hook or Ian crook it's an interesting question and a difficult one to answer. 

The board have a more complete view of the situation as they know DW personally, watch the training sessions, understand the internal issues and are able to speak to people with great experience within the game, including the players. Stuart Webber, in particular, will know exactly what DW is capable of, having led Huddersfield to promotion (and kept them up).

The fans, on the other hand, can see the dross played out on the pitch every week. We can also compare how other clubs react in similar situations, and how rare it is for managers to turn these situations around. To add to this, hanging on to Dean Smith for far longer than we should have is still fresh in the memory. The counter argument (to some) would be Daniel Farke.

What I am sure of is that people in leadership positions need to stop criticising the fans. This '20% whingers' comment is on par with the  'small group small group of divorcees' comment, which drove a wedge between the board and the fans. It's arguably more damaging as the criticisms she's complaining about, and they need to rise above such petty behaviour.  

[Pudd 1]

From the outside, it seems there is a culture within the club that does not value accountability. Delia's face told the story of "how dare they question us" (backed up by a "careful what you wish for" line). This appears to endorse the current perception of an echo chamber within the club, and the apparent internal belief that everything is fine. Delia needs to remind herself of The Emperor's New Clothes when recounting the tales everyone tells her about how wonderful things are.

This lack of accountability is why Delia thinks Stuart Webber is the bee's knees despite his woeful decision making since the Pukki and Buendia signings (which were both sublime). I have no doubt everyone there is working very hard. But it's the consisent sales of our best players to fund woeful transfer purchases, the loss of any style or fight in our football, and blaming the fans for these outcomes that we want answers for.

We should aim to be optimistic, and work towards a brighter future. But I feel Delia expects blind, unquestioning faith which is very different and inevitably leads to failure.

Edited December 2, 2023 by Pudd

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

I'm sure I'm not the only one that just wants to be entertained. I don't have unreasonable expectations, in fact given the choice I'd rather be in the Championship. The problem is that I have rarely been entertained since Farke left. 

It's very concerning that Smith in particular seems willing to go to war with someone like me and it's surely a sign that she should no longer be involved in major decisions. 

[S_81 829]

7 hours ago, nutty nigel said:

Would that be 80% or 20% Happy Clappers?

100% when it comes to your delusion and posts 

[essex canary 504]

8 minutes ago, S_81 said:

100% when it comes to your delusion and posts 

Doesn't his moniker tell us that he is a wonderful comedian?

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

5 hours ago, Yellow and Green said:

@By Hook or Ian crook it's an interesting question and a difficult one to answer. 

The board have a more complete view of the situation as they know DW personally, watch the training sessions, understand the internal issues and are able to speak to people with great experience within the game, including the players. Stuart Webber, in particular, will know exactly what DW is capable of, having led Huddersfield to promotion (and kept them up).

The fans, on the other hand, can see the dross played out on the pitch every week. We can also compare how other clubs react in similar situations, and how rare it is for managers to turn these situations around. To add to this, hanging on to Dean Smith for far longer than we should have is still fresh in the memory. The counter argument (to some) would be Daniel Farke.

What I am sure of is that people in leadership positions need to stop criticising the fans. This '20% whingers' comment is on par with the  'small group small group of divorcees' comment, which drove a wedge between the board and the fans. It's arguably more damaging as the criticisms she's complaining about, and they need to rise above such petty behaviour.  

I would add to this though that I have seen us lose heavily under some managers is the past and not heard a single boo. Did not hear a single boo under Lambert when ever we lost and did not hear a boo when we lost in Farke’s first go at the prem. I feel fans are very forgiving with losses if they can see the team tried their heart out and left everything on the pitch. If it’s just a case of getting beat by a better side that will happen from time to time. What we have now is a state of chronic miss management on and off the pitch. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I'm sure I'm not the only one that just wants to be entertained. I don't have unreasonable expectations, in fact given the choice I'd rather be in the Championship. The problem is that I have rarely been entertained since Farke left. 

It's very concerning that Smith in particular seems willing to go to war with someone like me and it's surely a sign that she should no longer be involved in major decisions. 

In contrast, decades of abuse against her with no real coherent focus other than not being wealthy enough to just throw money into the club shouldn't be considered of any concern to anybody; that's just normal accepted attitudes and behaviour for football fans.

Edited December 2, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[By Hook or Ian crook 917]

35 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

In contrast, decades of abuse against her with no real coherent focus other than not being wealthy enough to just throw money into the club shouldn't be considered of any concern to anybody; that's just normal accepted attitudes and behaviour for football fans.

I think Delia has rightly come under some criticism for refusing to either sell or accept external investment from others. Just look at all the hoops the Attanasios are having to go through to pass her morality test. At the end of the day no one will know if our club would have been better off had someone else been given a chance as they were never given that chance. 
 

As mentioned in the interview they had at least 5 other candidates willing to invest and buy Foulger’s shares. I would assume the Attanasios were the only ones willing to wait to pass said morality checks in order to gain the asset. We can all tell they are playing the long game until they get in charge and are just toeing the line for now. 

[dylanisabaddog 4,970]

52 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

In contrast, decades of abuse against her with no real coherent focus other than not being wealthy enough to just throw money into the club shouldn't be considered of any concern to anybody; that's just normal accepted attitudes and behaviour for football fans.

Sorry, but that's totally unreasonable. There are numerous well thinking people on this site who are unhappy with the way the club has been run and they have expressed their views politely and eloquently. Yes there are some who want an oil rich billionaire to take over but most just want to enjoy watching Norwich City. 

Quite frankly, they have good reason to moan. I think Smith and Jones lost the support of most when they allowed Webber to sack Farke without any clear strategy. He was replaced with a complete lack of due diligence by a man who behaved badly, didn't seem to want the job and because of his attitude is unlikely to find football work again. 

The fact that Webber sacked Farke in front of a room full of employees who had just won a football match says everything you need to know about his nature and judgement. Smith and Jones choose to side with Webber. 

Smith and Jones have decided that they are right and 25,000 people are wrong. That really doesn't bode well. If they think it's just 20% of the fan base who are disgruntled they are delusional. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Sorry, but that's totally unreasonable. There are numerous well thinking people on this site who are unhappy with the way the club has been run and they have expressed their views politely and eloquently. Yes there are some who want an oil rich billionaire to take over but most just want to enjoy watching Norwich City. 

Quite frankly, they have good reason to moan. I think Smith and Jones lost the support of most when they allowed Webber to sack Farke without any clear strategy. He was replaced with a complete lack of due diligence by a man who behaved badly, didn't seem to want the job and because of his attitude is unlikely to find football work again. 

The fact that Webber sacked Farke in front of a room full of employees who had just won a football match says everything you need to know about his nature and judgement. Smith and Jones choose to side with Webber. 

Smith and Jones have decided that they are right and 25,000 people are wrong. That really doesn't bode well. If they think it's just 20% of the fan base who are disgruntled they are delusional. 

I was talking about abuse. If they're polite and eloquent then obviously my comment doesn't apply to them. Polite and eloquent constructive criticism isn't negativity. There is an awful lot of negativity that doesn't fall into that category though.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't see much to be reasonably that negative about over her tenure recognising the limits within which we've operated. We've had some very good times mixed in with the bad.

Edited December 2, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Indy 3,314]

42 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I was talking about abuse. If they're polite and eloquent then obviously my comment doesn't apply to them. Polite and eloquent constructive criticism isn't negativity. There is an awful lot of negativity that doesn't fall into that category though.

In the grand scheme of things, I don't see much to be reasonably that negative about over her tenure recognising the limits within which we've operated. We've had some very good times mixed in with the bad.

I agree that there’s no need for any abuse or hate, Delia & MWJ are passionate supporters and lucky to be owners too! Of course there’s going to be criticism I’m one I have said for a few seasons the governance issue of two couples one employing the other and the far too friendly relationship wasn’t healthy for the club, it’s lead to no accountability and set a mood of apathy from boardroom to players to fans!

But she & MWJ deserve to be constructively criticised for daft comments, to be fair when you listen to their responses at the AGM it does show her age as there’s a number of mistakes in her responses which sound like a confused pensioner. Time catches up with all of us and running a club isn’t for the faint hearted as it will always come with criticism!