The Premier League gulf.

[duke63 545]

Doesn't the red lines above indicate a loss on player trading and Brighton are the only club to have made a profit ( in green). Its not possible for all clubs to have made a profit on player trading.

Its a bit of a misleading graph.

[Badger 2,407]

5 minutes ago, duke63 said:

Doesn't the red lines above indicate a loss on player trading and Brighton are the only club to have made a profit ( in green). Its not possible for all clubs to have made a profit on player trading.

Its a bit of a misleading graph.

No - he just highlighted Brighton in green because it is the club he is discussing. He always does this. It is a bit confusing because Brighton at the bottom so the change in colour might appear to be significant

[Ulfotto 641]

Brighton selling player for a profit only started in 2021 with the sale of Ben White before they sold him and the others that followed they would have one of the biggest red lines.

[duke63 545]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

No - he just highlighted Brighton in green because it is the club he is discussing. He always does this. It is a bit confusing because Brighton at the bottom so the change in colour might appear to be significant

I struggle to understand how nearly every club is making a profit in player trading. That cannot be true. 

[essex canary 504]

1 minute ago, duke63 said:

I struggle to understand how nearly every club is making a profit in player trading. That cannot be true. 

Because the figure is struck after charging Amortisation which under accounting conventions is likely to be prudent (ie. excessive) in nature. Therefore some of the 'profits' are simply a restatement of such excess Amortisation.

[shefcanary 2,439]

11 minutes ago, duke63 said:

I struggle to understand how nearly every club is making a profit in player trading. That cannot be true. 

It's as Essex says accounting profit. Also Chelsea have made so much because their academy is huge, so when they sell one of their ex-academy players they make pure profit. This is one way they have avoided FFP penalties - when things look tight on that front they sell a Mason Mount-like player for vast profit.

This is the main benefit to all those clubs who have Cat1 Academy status. It's a shame under Webber (once he got rid of Broughton) our academy has gone off the rails a bit. Let's hope Knapper can reinvigorate that side of the "business".

[Badger 2,407]

2 hours ago, duke63 said:

I struggle to understand how nearly every club is making a profit in player trading. That cannot be true. 

As suggested above it's due to amortisation and players developed through the academies.

An academy player is more or less pure profit.  Amortisation involves writing down the value of a player's registration over time.

e.g. If you buy a player for £10 million on a five year deal, his registration is written down over 5 years, - @ 2 million p.a. Therefore, after 4 years, he will only be valued at £2 million - if a club then sells him for say, £4 million, it has made a profit of £2 million, even though it paid £10 million originally.

[duke63 545]

18 hours ago, Badger said:

As suggested above it's due to amortisation and players developed through the academies.

An academy player is more or less pure profit.  Amortisation involves writing down the value of a player's registration over time.

e.g. If you buy a player for £10 million on a five year deal, his registration is written down over 5 years, - @ 2 million p.a. Therefore, after 4 years, he will only be valued at £2 million - if a club then sells him for say, £4 million, it has made a profit of £2 million, even though it paid £10 million originally.

 

I just don't see every club making a profit on transfers when we see the ridiculous and ever increasing transfer fees plus wages that go with them.

[Badger 2,407]

10 minutes ago, duke63 said:

 

I just don't see every club making a profit on transfers when we see the ridiculous and ever increasing transfer fees plus wages that go with them.

Wages do not count as part of the calculation. As I've tried to explain the fees are written down over time. What you view as "profit" is probably not the same as it is accounted for in accounting terms.

[essex canary 504]

7 hours ago, Badger said:

Wages do not count as part of the calculation. As I've tried to explain the fees are written down over time. What you view as "profit" is probably not the same as it is accounted for in accounting terms.

Do most owners charge interest? I can't see that at the likes of Middlesbrough and Blackburn. It can't be good practice when without PL or parachute TV money.

[Badger 2,407]

3 hours ago, essex canary said:

Do most owners charge interest? I can't see that at the likes of Middlesbrough and Blackburn. It can't be good practice when without PL or parachute TV money.

I don't think that many in the championship do as it would rather defeat the purpose of subsidising the club to gain premier league riches! It is much more common in the PL, but then there's more money to play with. The other thing, obviously, is how the debt is owed - if it is external debt, as some of ours is, currently at least, interest is unavoidable.

If MA intends to continue to do so, we need to get our debt down quickly, or it would weaken our long-term advantages at Championship level - player sales being the obvious solution.

[essex canary 504]

5 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't think that many in the championship do as it would rather defeat the purpose of subsidising the club to gain premier league riches! It is much more common in the PL, but then there's more money to play with. The other thing, obviously, is how the debt is owed - if it is external debt, as some of ours is, currently at least, interest is unavoidable.

If MA intends to continue to do so, we need to get our debt down quickly, or it would weaken our long-term advantages at Championship level - player sales being the obvious solution.

 

5 minutes ago, Badger said:

I don't think that many in the championship do as it would rather defeat the purpose of subsidising the club to gain premier league riches! It is much more common in the PL, but then there's more money to play with. The other thing, obviously, is how the debt is owed - if it is external debt, as some of ours is, currently at least, interest is unavoidable.

If MA intends to continue to do so, we need to get our debt down quickly, or it would weaken our long-term advantages at Championship level - player sales being the obvious solution.

I agree. It is not helpful to charge it when at Championship level. By charge, I mean charge. No point in deferring it either as it may take a while to get back PL in which case it will pile up and inhibit the first attempt back in the PL

 

[wcorkcanary 4,336]

10 hours ago, essex canary said:

 

I agree. It is not helpful to charge it when at Championship level. By charge, I mean charge. No point in deferring it either as it may take a while to get back PL in which case it will pile up and inhibit the first attempt back in the PL

 

Would you be happy with 7% profit on your shares .... but only for the years We were in the premier league?.

No waffle, a straight yes or no ( if you are capable of that) will do.

[Badger 2,407]

12 hours ago, essex canary said:

 

I agree. It is not helpful to charge it when at Championship level. By charge, I mean charge. No point in deferring it either as it may take a while to get back PL in which case it will pile up and inhibit the first attempt back in the PL

 

With interest rates at a generational high, it is the worst time imaginable to become highly geared. 

[essex canary 504]

2 hours ago, wcorkcanary said:

Would you be happy with 7% profit on your shares .... but only for the years We were in the premier league?.

No waffle, a straight yes or no ( if you are capable of that) will do.

I am sure Ben Gibson's uncle would do better than that.

Then again I doubt he would pay his nephew such a ridiculous salary, incur £2 million interest to borrow £5 million for a training ground project or engage in the highest salary bill in Premier League history and be marooned at the bottom?

How to make the Premier League gulf even bigger in one easy lesson.

[shefcanary 2,439]

1 hour ago, Badger said:

With interest rates at a generational high, it is the worst time imaginable to become highly geared. 

After today's UK inflation news of 4.6% (and more importantly yesterdays US inflation news which was down to 3.2%), now is not the time to fix the interest rate based on current rates. If we are still in negotiation with our biggest lender (ha, ha) base it on likely future BoE rate of 2.5 - 4%. Attanasio must not be allowed to charge 11% on the renegotiated long term loan, anything more than 6% and he is taking the proverbial. 

[Badger 2,407]

3 hours ago, shefcanary said:

After today's UK inflation news of 4.6% (and more importantly yesterdays US inflation news which was down to 3.2%), now is not the time to fix the interest rate based on current rates. If we are still in negotiation with our biggest lender (ha, ha) base it on likely future BoE rate of 2.5 - 4%. Attanasio must not be allowed to charge 11% on the renegotiated long term loan, anything more than 6% and he is taking the proverbial. 

Some clubs (e.g. Southampton) were paying about 9% above the Bamk's base rate in 2021 to MSD and an Australian bank (Macquarie) was rumoured to be charging more, which would suggest a commercial rate of c 14% (for highly geared football clubs - nb look at the rate of administration). In this case, 11% could be seen as a pretty good deal!! (Rather hoping that we don't pay this much.)

Given obvious attempts to reduce the wage bill etc, would you dare venture an estimate of debt levels from this year's accounts (+/- 50%)? I was under the impression, perhaps erroneously, that they may decline this year as a result of the actions taken.

[Badger 2,407]

3 hours ago, essex canary said:

I am sure Ben Gibson's uncle would do better than that.

Then again I doubt he would pay his nephew such a ridiculous salary, incur £2 million interest to borrow £5 million for a training ground project or engage in the highest salary bill in Premier League history and be marooned at the bottom?

How to make the Premier League gulf even bigger in one easy lesson.

TBF, Gibson has spent over £200 million to make Middlesborough a mid-table Championship club, with visits to the PL less frequent than our own.

[shefcanary 2,439]

8 hours ago, Badger said:

Some clubs (e.g. Southampton) were paying about 9% above the Bamk's base rate in 2021 to MSD and an Australian bank (Macquarie) was rumoured to be charging more, which would suggest a commercial rate of c 14% (for highly geared football clubs - nb look at the rate of administration). In this case, 11% could be seen as a pretty good deal!! (Rather hoping that we don't pay this much.)

Given obvious attempts to reduce the wage bill etc, would you dare venture an estimate of debt levels from this year's accounts (+/- 50%)? I was under the impression, perhaps erroneously, that they may decline this year as a result of the actions taken.

On another thread I've modelled what I think will happen to debt.

I foresee a reduction to £48m (halved - £38m to Attanasio includes £10m for C Prefs, £4m to other  pref shareholders / bondholders, £6m to third parties secured on future transfer instalments). The recent profit of summer transfers (£18m), the conversion of Attanasio's relevant loan (£5m), repayment of the third party loans secured on parachute and transfer payment instalments (£17m + £8m respectively) will be used. This assumes a break-even operating return and a balanced net transfer spend. Any adverse variance from this I assume will be bankrolled by Attanasio.

Whatever, the majority will be owed to Attanasio et al. Can he really afford to take £5m+ from the club's operating budget ad finitum?

[wcorkcanary 4,336]

9 hours ago, Badger said:

TBF, Gibson has spent over £200 million to make Middlesborough a mid-table Championship club, with visits to the PL less frequent than our own.

Ethics talks shoite a lot of the time, but i'm sure you dont need me point that out tbf, he doesnt do fact checking with both eyes.

[Duncan Edwards 2,258]

15 hours ago, essex canary said:

I am sure Ben Gibson's uncle would do better than that.

Then again I doubt he would pay his nephew such a ridiculous salary, incur £2 million interest to borrow £5 million for a training ground project or engage in the highest salary bill in Premier League history and be marooned at the bottom?

How to make the Premier League gulf even bigger in one easy lesson.

Middlesbrough. Added to the bag of clubs. 

[essex canary 504]

11 hours ago, shefcanary said:

On another thread I've modelled what I think will happen to debt.

I foresee a reduction to £48m (halved - £38m to Attanasio includes £10m for C Prefs, £4m to other  pref shareholders / bondholders, £6m to third parties secured on future transfer instalments). The recent profit of summer transfers (£18m), the conversion of Attanasio's relevant loan (£5m), repayment of the third party loans secured on parachute and transfer payment instalments (£17m + £8m respectively) will be used. This assumes a break-even operating return and a balanced net transfer spend. Any adverse variance from this I assume will be bankrolled by Attanasio.

Whatever, the majority will be owed to Attanasio et al. Can he really afford to take £5m+ from the club's operating budget ad finitum?

50 per cent plus of the gate money devoted to debt financing. With all this international reach we should be able to radically increase the prices on those video streams that can be watched (at least sometimes).

 

[Badger 2,407]

21 hours ago, shefcanary said:

On another thread I've modelled what I think will happen to debt.

I foresee a reduction to £48m (halved - £38m to Attanasio includes £10m for C Prefs, £4m to other  pref shareholders / bondholders, £6m to third parties secured on future transfer instalments). The recent profit of summer transfers (£18m), the conversion of Attanasio's relevant loan (£5m), repayment of the third party loans secured on parachute and transfer payment instalments (£17m + £8m respectively) will be used. This assumes a break-even operating return and a balanced net transfer spend. Any adverse variance from this I assume will be bankrolled by Attanasio.

Whatever, the majority will be owed to Attanasio et al. Can he really afford to take £5m+ from the club's operating budget ad finitum?

That is quite literally, the multi-million pound question! The fact that he has taken money last year, is not encouraging - but I suppose he may feel when we are in receipt of parachute payments it is not quite as critical. The other thing he could do (I think others have) is to turn the interest due into further debt which he can claim when (if) we regain PL status, or alternatively use the debt to buy equity in the future. (I'm sure you know this 😁)

[Midlands Yellow 4,026]

On 15/11/2023 at 13:47, Badger said:

TBF, Gibson has spent over £200 million to make Middlesborough a mid-table Championship club, with visits to the PL less frequent than our own.

A third place finish in the PL, a UEFA Cup Final and winners of of the League Cup ain’t bad going though. 

[nutty nigel 7,565]

8 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

A third place finish in the PL, a UEFA Cup Final and winners of of the League Cup ain’t bad going though. 

My memories include the Play Off final and the 4-4 but each to their own...

[Midlands Yellow 4,026]

3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

My memories include the Play Off final and the 4-4 but each to their own...

Just comparing S&J to Gibson, calm down. 

[nutty nigel 7,565]

1 minute ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Just comparing S&J to Gibson, calm down. 

Well that's a daft comparison.

[Midlands Yellow 4,026]

Just now, nutty nigel said:

Well that's a daft comparison.

Exactly, we agree for once. Gibson pumped real money into his club and was more successful. 

[nutty nigel 7,565]

8 minutes ago, Midlands Yellow said:

Exactly, we agree for once. Gibson pumped real money into his club and was more successful. 

Of course we don't agree. It's a daft comparison because he would never have pumped money in here. He chose Boro. Strange that...

[Midlands Yellow 4,026]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

Of course we don't agree. It's a daft comparison because he would never have pumped money in here. He chose Boro. Strange that...

First point I was being facetious. I was simply pointing out who backed their club in all ways and who had more success.