Striving to make sense of the Ukraine war

[TheGunnShow 5,985]

Because Myanmar is a dysfunctional shytehole that refuses to consider the Rohingya as citizens, as per the 1982 nationality law that considers the Rohingya as citizens of Bangladesh, not indigenous. To make matters worse, Bangladesh does not recognise this claim, so the Rohingya are effectively stateless.

Edited January 23, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[horsefly 4,310]

54 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

Those who committed terrorism in the Baltic should not be surprised that there are measures Germany can take that will stifle their bloodthirstiness, not to speak their profiteering from this war. What are the Ukrainian's plan for making peace, when they have no more country or infrastructure left and have taken Dombass back? hypothetically speaking, they must have plans to make peace/negotiate a cease fire, so they can rebuild at vast costs?

I'm sure those who don;t understand 'Russia's paranoia', spoken about in Putin's annual press gathering every year since 2015 will have a clever answer to give with regards to PEACE.

You're right that Germany has taken measures to "stifle the bloodthirstiness" of terrorists, for it has indeed supplied very large amounts of weaponry and ammunition to Ukraine to fight the Russian invaders. Germany has also said other countries can supply its tanks, while it considers how it might supply them in the near future too. 

The "clever answer I have "with regards to PEACE" is, don't fu*cking well invade another country's sovereign territory and start a war. As a method of maintaining peace it seems to work rather well for every country that observes it.

Edited January 23, 2023 by horsefly

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

you should have been at the press gathering and ask him that question. why did Myanmar kill the Rohinga by the thousands when they are peaceful Buddhists?

Do you really think Putin would allow himself to be questioned about Navalny or Nemtsov?

And what has Myanamr got to do with it? Two wrongs making a right?

[Indy 3,314]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

You're right that Germany has taken measures to "stifle the bloodthirstiness" of terrorists, for it has indeed supplied very large amounts of weaponry and ammunition to Ukraine to fight the Russian invaders. Germany has also said other countries can supply its tanks, while it considers how it might supply them in the near future too. 

The "clever answer I have "with regards to PEACE" is, don't fu*cking well invade another country's sovereign territory and start a war. As a method of maintaining peace it seems to work rather well for every country that observes it.

Apart from Israel!

[horsefly 4,310]

41 minutes ago, Indy said:

Apart from Israel!

Not sure if I would describe Israel as a place of peace.

[Indy 3,314]

11 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Not sure if I would describe Israel as a place of peace.

Neither was the Ukraine, fighting in the south has been going on for a fair while.

[horsefly 4,310]

8 minutes ago, Indy said:

Neither was the Ukraine, fighting in the south has been going on for a fair while.

I think you might have slightly missed my point. Obviously there is little a peaceful country can do to remain peaceful when it is invaded by a hostile neighbour. My point is simply that peace is not going to be achieved by an aggressor invading/attacking another country's sovereign territory.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,425]

With the anniversary of the invasion coming up, I thought there might be negotiations over some of the Donbas region where Ukraine accede some land and everyone's happy. Sadly Russia seem to be ramping up.

[Indy 3,314]

6 minutes ago, horsefly said:

I think you might have slightly missed my point. Obviously there is little a peaceful country can do to remain peaceful when it is invaded by a hostile neighbour. My point is simply that peace is not going to be achieved by an aggressor invading/attacking another country's sovereign territory.

No I’ve not missed your point at all, Ukraine has a history of a large population of pro Russian in the south, there’s been unrest there for years, as for Israel they have taken land from Palestine invading the areas for land grab for years. No difference.

You mentioned a point yet Israel hasn’t had the UN response that Russia has, no sanctions only a bit of criticism…..it makes no sense to argue so hard for Ukraine to get all its land back, yet you’re happy to turn a blind eye to Israel! Why?

[horsefly 4,310]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

No I’ve not missed your point at all, Ukraine has a history of a large population of pro Russian in the south, there’s been unrest there for years, as for Israel they have taken land from Palestine invading the areas for land grab for years. No difference.

You mentioned a point yet Israel hasn’t had the UN response that Russia has, no sanctions only a bit of criticism…..it makes no sense to argue so hard for Ukraine to get all its land back, yet you’re happy to turn a blind eye to Israel! Why?

Yes you did miss my point. It was very obviously worded as a sarcastic one-liner in response to Nevermind's silly point about peace (take another look). I think I have long established a (somewhat notorious) reputation as someone who explains a point at length if I have a serious point to make.

If you want to raise Israel yet again that's your prerogative.

[Indy 3,314]

9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Yes you did miss my point. It was very obviously worded as a sarcastic one-liner in response to Nevermind's silly point about peace (take another look). I think I have long established a (somewhat notorious) reputation as someone who explains a point at length if I have a serious point to make.

If you want to raise Israel yet again that's your prerogative.

I raise it as you are so anti peaceful negotiation with any land being given away by Ukraine to appease Russia, where’s the difference to Israel, what’s to say they won’t start to take land from other neighbours, they have the threat of nuclear weapons too, they don’t have the same reaction from the UN. Of course if you think it’s acceptable to be so vehement against Russia and it’s land grab yet not so bothered about Israel I have to question your motives! But hey ho, both countries have invaded its neighbours land forcefully removing the population and replacing it with its own.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Indy said:

Apart from Israel!

Israel wants peace.

A piece of the West Bank, a piece of Jordan and a piece of Syria.

[horsefly 4,310]

15 hours ago, Indy said:

I raise it as you are so anti peaceful negotiation with any land being given away by Ukraine to appease Russia, where’s the difference to Israel, what’s to say they won’t start to take land from other neighbours, they have the threat of nuclear weapons too, they don’t have the same reaction from the UN. Of course if you think it’s acceptable to be so vehement against Russia and it’s land grab yet not so bothered about Israel I have to question your motives! But hey ho, both countries have invaded its neighbours land forcefully removing the population and replacing it with its own.

Firstly, I have made various comments over the years on various threads expressing my anger at Israel's treatment of Palestine. Israel's behaviour has often been unacceptable and deserves sanction. Your claim that I have anywhere said or implied that I am "not bothered by Israel's behaviour" is an utterly disingenuous lie for which you should apologise.

However, If you genuinely can't see the massive difference in scale and depravity between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Israel's behaviour then I truly am at a loss as to what evidence could possibly make you see sense. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by horsefly

[Indy 3,314]

28 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Firstly, I have made various comments over the years on various threads expressing my anger at Israel's treatment of Palestine. Israel's behaviour has often been unacceptable and deserves sanction. Your claim that I have anywhere said or implied that I am "not bothered by Israel's behaviour" is an utterly disingenuous lie for which you should apologise.

However, If you genuinely can't see the massive difference in scale and depravity between Russia's invasion of Ukraine and Israel's behaviour then I truly am at a loss as to what evidence could possibly make you see sense. 

I’m not apologising to you, you’re second sentence sums your view against Russia, I’m pretty sure over years Palestinian would say the same against Israel yet the waves of sanctions against Russia is massive and lead to everyone globally suffering, nothing on Israel and not many off us raising their issues.

As others have said this war will end either in escalation or talks with both sides probably conceding ground, so just like Israel land grabs and attacks on the Palestinians, I believe Crimea will end up Russian in my opinion.

[horsefly 4,310]

9 minutes ago, Indy said:

I’m not apologising to you, you’re second sentence sums your view against Russia, I’m pretty sure over years Palestinian would say the same against Israel yet the waves of sanctions against Russia is massive and lead to everyone globally suffering, nothing on Israel and not many off us raising their issues.

As others have said this war will end either in escalation or talks with both sides probably conceding ground, so just like Israel land grabs and attacks on the Palestinians, I believe Crimea will end up Russian in my opinion.

Of course you won't apologise, I didn't expect you to show some honour in retracting a blatant lie. It's fine to disagree over matters of fact, it is entirely dishonourable to simply lie about what the other person has actually said.

Perhaps you might like to compare the stats of the two conflicts over this last year. How many missiles have Israel launched into civilian targets compared to Russia? How many innocent Ukrainian civilians have been murdered by Russian forces compared to Palestinians by Israeli forces? How many people have been tortured by the two aggressors? How many rapes have been committed by Israeli forces compared to Russian forces. How many civilians have been rounded up, marched off, and shot? I could of course go on. Sadly that seems pointless given you refuse to acknowledge any difference. None of those differences alter the condemnation that Israel, or indeed any country, should face for committing war crimes; however, the idea that the scale of those differences doesn't warrant a difference in response from those seeking to uphold international law simply defies logic and morality.

[Indy 3,314]

19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Of course you won't apologise, I didn't expect you to show some honour in retracting a blatant lie. It's fine to disagree over matters of fact, it is entirely dishonourable to simply lie about what the other person has actually said.

Perhaps you might like to compare the stats of the two conflicts over this last year. How many missiles have Israel launched into civilian targets compared to Russia? How many innocent Ukrainian civilians have been murdered by Russian forces compared to Palestinians by Israeli forces? How many people have been tortured by the two aggressors? How many rapes have been committed by Israeli forces compared to Russian forces. How many civilians have been rounded up, marched off, and shot? I could of course go on. Sadly that seems pointless given you refuse to acknowledge any difference. None of those differences alter the condemnation that Israel, or indeed any country, should face for committing war crimes; however, the idea that the scale of those differences doesn't warrant a difference in response from those seeking to uphold international law simply defies logic and morality.

Again, you totally focus on press from the west, you have no idea of the realities of what’s going on in either conflict, other than you read being reported.

Why do you separate the two, both are the same and just because one conflict is in its early stage why compare the two as whole and the thousands killed in the West Bank, Palestine and the thousands displaced from their lands! I suggest there’s not difference in the two in legality!

Last word on this, you’ve at no point considered others opinions and consideration, you believe your own view on this is the correct one, yet you fully overlook the corrupt nature of Ukraine pre war, the fact that there was a conflict already ongoing between the two countries in a proxy war in the pro Russian south, what happened was utterly abhorrent and Putin should be take n out by his own people at some point, he will in the end either be up in front of the west or his own people will deal with him, of course the third option of full escalation is certainly something which should not be allowed at any cost.

[horsefly 4,310]

2 hours ago, Indy said:

Again, you totally focus on press from the west, you have no idea of the realities of what’s going on in either conflict, other than you read being reported.

Fine! provide us with the links that show that what is happening in Israel and Palestine is on anything like the equivalent scale of depravity being perpetrated by Russia.

2 hours ago, Indy said:

Why do you separate the two, both are the same and just because one conflict is in its early stage why compare the two as whole and the thousands killed in the West Bank, Palestine and the thousands displaced from their lands! I suggest there’s not difference in the two in legality!

Try reading what I actually said. I said war crimes require a response irrespective of the country responsible. However, your claim that they are "both the same" is patently ridiculous. Why don't you answer the questions I posed about the stats above? Quite obviously because you know it would explain precisely why Russia's invasion of Ukraine demands a response on a scale that would not be justified by the conflict in Palestine.

 

2 hours ago, Indy said:

 

Last word on this, you’ve at no point considered others opinions and consideration, you believe your own view on this is the correct one, yet you fully overlook the corrupt nature of Ukraine pre war, the fact that there was a conflict already ongoing between the two countries in a proxy war in the pro Russian south, what happened was utterly abhorrent and Putin should be take n out by his own people at some point, he will in the end either be up in front of the west or his own people will deal with him, of course the third option of full escalation is certainly something which should not be allowed at any cost.

Yet more lies. I have indeed discussed the Donbass conflict many times on this and other threads. I have talked at length about the two Minsk protocols. The fact remains that the Donbass is legally Ukrainian territory. Why do you not check the facts before you make wild and dishonourable accusations.

What does it even mean to accuse me of "fully overlook[ing] the corrupt nature of Ukraine pre war"? Feel free to explain what relevance such claims are supposed to have in determining the correct response to Russia's invasion. 

 

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

23 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Do you really think Putin would allow himself to be questioned about Navalny or Nemtsov?

And what has Myanamr got to do with it? Two wrongs making a right?

no not two wrongs make a right. but when your nose is dripping, its advisable to wipe that first before you ask others to wipe theirs.

Where was the indignation when the tub thumpers attacked Iraq, when they bombed Libiya to steal 151 billion and murder Ghaddafi who previously 'could do business with Bliar'?

The propaganda that has people all over Europe contemplating war, even those nations who said that they will never go to war again, that's mass psychosis.

Do you really thing that the Nazis in charge of Ukrainian use of Nato weapons are going to stop if they even come close to Russias border? why is it that they have no aims or objectives to make peace for their people, their country as they call it, their families?

 

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

20 hours ago, horsefly said:

I think you might have slightly missed my point. Obviously there is little a peaceful country can do to remain peaceful when it is invaded by a hostile neighbour. My point is simply that peace is not going to be achieved by an aggressor invading/attacking another country's sovereign territory.

No you are missing the point. Minsk 1/2 were accepted by this, the French and the German Government, because, as Merkel has admitted, they wanted to buy time for Ukraine to be fully armed. The Nazi Ukrainian Government ignored that they had to have a cease fire and carried on bombing the crap our of 16.000people in Dombass and Luchansk. N

Are you really saying that these mad f..cks going to stop when they anywhere come near the border? they never wanted peace and their country was in tatters, corrupt and scheming for more war.

When I see City Hall flying the flag for Nazi's whilst old men remember their comrades in front of it who have died to defeat the nazi's in Germany, my stomach turns.

 

[horsefly 4,310]

10 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

No you are missing the point. Minsk 1/2 were accepted by this, the French and the German Government, because, as Merkel has admitted, they wanted to buy time for Ukraine to be fully armed. The Nazi Ukrainian Government ignored that they had to have a cease fire and carried on bombing the crap our of 16.000people in Dombass and Luchansk. N

Are you really saying that these mad f..cks going to stop when they anywhere come near the border? they never wanted peace and their country was in tatters, corrupt and scheming for more war.

When I see City Hall flying the flag for Nazi's whilst old men remember their comrades in front of it who have died to defeat the nazi's in Germany, my stomach turns.

 

If you ever decide to seek help by joining a de-indoctrination program I have some contacts who can help. Your Putin propaganda tripe deserves complete and utter contempt.

What turns my stomach is someone who is prepared to insult the memory of war veterans who fought and gave their lives to defeat a dictator who invaded the sovereign lands of free countries. I suggest you take a trip to your nearest Royal British Legion and see what the vets there think of your views.

Edited January 24, 2023 by horsefly

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

57 minutes ago, horsefly said:

If you ever decide to seek help by joining a de-indoctrination program I have some contacts who can help. Your Putin propaganda tripe deserves complete and utter contempt.

What turns my stomach is someone who is prepared to insult the memory of war veterans who fought and gave their lives to defeat a dictator who invaded the sovereign lands of free countries. I suggest you take a trip to your nearest Royal British Legion and see what the vets there think of your views.

I can across the following tweet by one of No Mind's heros. I think in it's absurdity it explains everything.

Caitlin Johnstone on Twitter: "If you're on the side of the US empire on any issue you are on the wrong side. Doesn't mean the other side is always necessarily in the right, it just means a globe-spanning empire that's held together by lies, murder and tyranny will always be in the wrong. Yes it's that simple." / Twitter

Edited January 24, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Indy 3,314]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Fine! provide us with the links that show that what is happening in Israel and Palestine is on anything like the equivalent scale of depravity being perpetrated by Russia.

Try reading what I actually said. I said war crimes require a response irrespective of the country responsible. However, your claim that they are "both the same" is patently ridiculous. Why don't you answer the questions I posed about the stats above? Quite obviously because you know it would explain precisely why Russia's invasion of Ukraine demands a response on a scale that would not be justified by the conflict in Palestine.

 

Yet more lies. I have indeed discussed the Donbass conflict many times on this and other threads. I have talked at length about the two Minsk protocols. The fact remains that the Donbass is legally Ukrainian territory. Why do you not check the facts before you make wild and dishonourable accusations.

What does it even mean to accuse me of "fully overlook[ing] the corrupt nature of Ukraine pre war"? Feel free to explain what relevance such claims are supposed to have in determining the correct response to Russia's invasion. 

 

First as I’ve said, my last on this! But just for you…….you don’t respect others views on this entire 3000 posts you have to have your final say, like some forum dictator, it’s your opinion only…….so this will be my very last response…..I’ve no reason to apologise as you just go on and on!

Starting at the top, 60 years of invasion into Palestinian territory displacing and killing thousands of innocent in your opinion isn’t equivalent to the Ukrainian plight! I’ll just leave that there as I see both as terrible atrocities!

Second point you have no ideas what war crimes have been committed in both conflicts, you just assume that Ukraine as it has such a high visual and constant reported by the west must be worse! Really any invasion on a territory and any attack on civilians is a war crime, end off!

Thirdly I’m not reading through three thousand posts of yours to find the odd post, but it’s been pointed  a number of number of times pre 2014 Ukraine was at turmoil, since 2014 there’s been more issues than we can comprehend, the honest answer here is most of us really didn’t have much knowledge of the Ukrainian issues and conflicts going on till this we government came in and this conflict started, now knowing you you’ll probably claim to know and knew all about Ukraine pre 2014. The simple facts are that until February last year massive part of that southern population were Russian speaking pro Russia and didn’t want what the Ukrainian government was going after. The invasion was abhorrent and totally illegal but for months and even years before it happened both the EU and US were aware this might happen, I find it very poor that it was allowed to go this far. No lies just facts that you make your judgement call based on your opinions built on reports and others do too.

As above having worked for Russian on projects and having Ukrainian suppliers over the past twenty years has lead me to build up relationships with companies, the people working there were everyday ordinary people, no one wants politics in their lives which ultimately divide a nation, and as such when you have an area of national separation (you can to a degree say the same of Scotland & Englands relationship) you either learn to live with it or divide it as the Czech & Slovaks did, so maybe the answer would have been to have a had two separate countries with close ties.

So back to original point, you said!

The "clever answer I have "with regards to PEACE" is, don't fu*cking well invade another country's sovereign territory and start a war. As a method of maintaining peace it seems to work rather well for every country that observes it.

I pointed out Israel, you then went off on I missed the point, no I raised the point, then we went full battle, where in reality I don’t buy your opinion very much as highlighted by you not recognising both conflicts being the same, the only difference is Palestinians haven’t had the same platform to air their grievances, haven’t had 3 billion dollars of arms and aid to take back their rightful territory, but that’s ok because it’s been going on for sixty years.

Thats my last on this subject, I don’t want to see any escalation in this conflict and those constantly saying Putin won’t stop are just using this as an excuse, Putin won’t invade or fire at any NATO country end off, if he was ever going to he would have earlier in this conflict when all the Baltic countries borders were open. I’d like to see an end to the conflict not keeping the fire burning, the longer it goes on the longer more innocent people die.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Indy

[horsefly 4,310]

1 hour ago, Indy said:

First as I’ve said, my last on this! But just for you…….you don’t respect others views on this entire 3000 posts you have to have your final say, like some forum dictator, it’s your opinion only…….so this will be my very last response…..I’ve no reason to apologise as you just go on and on!

Starting at the top, 60 years of invasion into Palestinian territory displacing and killing thousands of innocent in your opinion isn’t equivalent to the Ukrainian plight! I’ll just leave that there as I see both as terrible atrocities!

Second point you have no ideas what war crimes have been committed in both conflicts, you just assume that Ukraine as it has such a high visual and constant reported by the west must be worse! Really any invasion on a territory and any attack on civilians is a war crime, end off!

Thirdly I’m not reading through three thousand posts of yours to find the odd post, but it’s been pointed  a number of number of times pre 2014 Ukraine was at turmoil, since 2014 there’s been more issues than we can comprehend, the honest answer here is most of us really didn’t have much knowledge of the Ukrainian issues and conflicts going on till this we government came in and this conflict started, now knowing you you’ll probably claim to know and knew all about Ukraine pre 2014. The simple facts are that until February last year massive part of that southern population were Russian speaking pro Russia and didn’t want what the Ukrainian government was going after. The invasion was abhorrent and totally illegal but for months and even years before it happened both the EU and US were aware this might happen, I find it very poor that it was allowed to go this far. No lies just facts that you make your judgement call based on your opinions built on reports and others do too.

As above having worked for Russian on projects and having Ukrainian suppliers over the past twenty years has lead me to build up relationships with companies, the people working there were everyday ordinary people, no one wants politics in their lives which ultimately divide a nation, and as such when you have an area of national separation (you can to a degree say the same of Scotland & Englands relationship) you either learn to live with it or divide it as the Czech & Slovaks did, so maybe the answer would have been to have a had two separate countries with close ties.

So back to original point, you said!

The "clever answer I have "with regards to PEACE" is, don't fu*cking well invade another country's sovereign territory and start a war. As a method of maintaining peace it seems to work rather well for every country that observes it.

I pointed out Israel, you then went off on I missed the point, no I raised the point, then we went full battle, where in reality I don’t buy your opinion very much as highlighted by you not recognising both conflicts being the same, the only difference is Palestinians haven’t had the same platform to air their grievances, haven’t had 3 billion dollars of arms and aid to take back their rightful territory, but that’s ok because it’s been going on for sixty years.

Thats my last on this subject, I don’t want to see any escalation in this conflict and those constantly saying Putin won’t stop are just using this as an excuse, Putin won’t invade or fire at any NATO country end off, if he was ever going to he would have earlier in this conflict when all the Baltic countries borders were open. I’d like to see an end to the conflict not keeping the fire burning, the longer it goes on the longer more innocent people die.

Yet again more lies and drivel. Funny how you moan about me going on and on, yet every post you make repeats the same old guff about how one can't have a certain opinion about the Ukraine/Russia war unless one has exactly the same opinion about Israel/Palestine conflict. As if the extraordinary complexity of each conflict could be so ridiculously simplified, but of course you don't let that obvious fact stop you.  And then of course you will tell us yet again that you have worked in the Ukraine and Russia and therefore we should all understand that you know exactly what all Ukrainians really want. Boring nonsense of course, but it doesn't stop you thinking you scan speak for the entire population. Perhaps you might like to consider why a year down the line, and having suffered horrific punishment and destruction, Ukrainian people still seem to be doing everything they can to fight back. Strange, since according to you they want the very opposite.

No one wants to see this conflict escalate, Putin could ensure it doesn't by the immediate withdrawal of his troops. Ukraine has a perfect right to protect its sovereign territory, and others have a prefect right to offer them help to remove the invader from their lands. Any kind of Russian victory in this war would not restore peace but make the world a massively more dangerous place. There's a reason why Estonia, Finland, Moldova, Romania, Poland etc, etc, etc are so determined to see Ukraine armed adequately in order to fully succeed in expelling Russian troops, perhaps you might give it a thought as to why they disagree with your opinion.

[Indy 3,314]

15 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Yet again more lies and drivel. Funny how you moan about me going on and on, yet every post you make repeats the same old guff about how one can't have a certain opinion about the Ukraine/Russia war unless one has exactly the same opinion about Israel/Palestine conflict. As if the extraordinary complexity of each conflict could be so ridiculously simplified, but of course you don't let that obvious fact stop you.  And then of course you will tell us yet again that you have worked in the Ukraine and Russia and therefore we should all understand that you know exactly what all Ukrainians really want. Boring nonsense of course, but it doesn't stop you thinking you scan speak for the entire population. Perhaps you might like to consider why a year down the line, and having suffered horrific punishment and destruction, Ukrainian people still seem to be doing everything they can to fight back. Strange, since according to you they want the very opposite.

No one wants to see this conflict escalate, Putin could ensure it doesn't by the immediate withdrawal of his troops. Ukraine has a perfect right to protect its sovereign territory, and others have a prefect right to offer them help to remove the invader from their lands. Any kind of Russian victory in this war would not restore peace but make the world a massively more dangerous place. There's a reason why Estonia, Finland, Moldova, Romania, Poland etc, etc, etc are so determined to see Ukraine armed adequately in order to fully succeed in expelling Russian troops, perhaps you might give it a thought as to why they disagree with your opinion.

Exactly as I thought! More high horse waffle!

If you think there’s no similarity in the two then you’re deluded……or should that be double standards, but hey as always we aren’t allowed to disagree with you! Funny when you get answers you don’t like you go off on a waffle!

Here’s a link to help you see that’s the two land grabs aren’t so different but not reported the same! I wonder why?

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/6/4/the-naksa-how-israel-occupied-the-whole-of-palestine-in-1967
 

[Herman 9,819]

Hopefully the start....

[Daz Sparks 1,174]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

Hopefully the start....

As you say, hopefully many more will follow, something in the order

of 50x would help.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Daz Sparks

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

I've read somewhere that there are 100 from the willing.

[horsefly 4,310]

51 minutes ago, Indy said:

Exactly as I thought! More high horse waffle!

If you think there’s no similarity in the two then you’re deluded……or should that be double standards, but hey as always we aren’t allowed to disagree with you! Funny when you get answers you don’t like you go off on a waffle!

Here’s a link to help you see that’s the two land grabs aren’t so different but not reported the same! I wonder why?

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2018/6/4/the-naksa-how-israel-occupied-the-whole-of-palestine-in-1967
 

So  you simply refuse to answer the substantive points. If it's waffle explain why that is so. You can't, so you won't, so you hope an insult will suffice, it doesn't. 

It's very instructive that you have slipped from claiming that the Israeli/Palestinian situation should be treated the same as the Ukrainian/Russian situation to now claiming that I have to be "deluded" to see no similarity between the two. Of course the fact is I have nowhere denied that there are similarities. What I said was there are significant differences which justify taking a different response to those two situations.

You appear to have a very naïve understanding of the relationship between the general principles upon which the UN (and international law) is founded and the fact that the political contexts in which those principles are applied determine what actions are appropriate. As Wittgenstein demonstrated so clearly, general principles/rules do not determine their own application, their content is always determined by the context of their application (Philosophical Investigations). In short there is no rational logical step from same general principle to same action in application. To give a very simple and non-controversial example; the doctor's code of professional conduct states the paramount importance of the principle of respect for patient autonomy. However, what that requires in terms  of a doctor's actions can only be determined in actual practice. Actions that respect autonomy will be conditional on the  status of the patient; thus a child, a competent adult, a mentally ill adult, a drug affected teenager etc, etc, will all require different responses while respecting the same general principle.

Exactly the same point holds for application of principles to context at all levels, including those of international politics.  Thus the principle that establishes the right to self-determination of all sovereign nations, will require different actions and international responses according to the context of any dispute in which such self-determination is questioned or threatened. The Donbass question is indeed a perfect example of this point. It is internationally recognised that the Donbass region is Ukrainian sovereign territory, but because of the particular historical and demographic context of that region it was internationally recognised that the principle of self determination applied to that region required authorising a significant level of regional autonomy not appropriate to the rest of the Ukraine (hence the Minsk protocols). 

I read your link and found nothing in it that I particularly disagreed with. So perhaps you will return the favour and read the following short link: https://www.mei.edu/publications/recognize-or-not-recognize-eu-recognition-palestine. I am pro the Palestinian cause, but it does them no favour whatsoever to think you can fight their cause by claiming some simplistic and patently false idea that invoking the same principles one applies in the case of the Russian invasion of Ukraine requires the same responses and actions that are appropriate there. Of course, one should always be expected to explain why one considers different responses appropriate in different situations, and that indeed is what international diplomacy is fundamentally about. It works best precisely when it is able to respect the complexities involved, not when it ignores them.

[horsefly 4,310]

25 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I've read somewhere that there are 100 from the willing.

Excellent! Let's hope they arrive in time to help Ukraine repel the expected Russian spring offensive.

[Herman 9,819]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

I've read somewhere that there are 100 from the willing.

The Dutch are going to buy some to send over apparently.