Striving to make sense of the Ukraine war

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

Apparently helping a sovereign state maintain its integrity in the light of a crazed dictator illegally invading it is due to "vested interests".

Well, yeah. A vested interest in law and order. A vested interest in democracy and self-determination. And a vested interest that past mistakes of appeasement, mirrored through decades of history, are not repeated.

Until Putin and his cronies are in the Hague, we mustn't falter or fail.

Edited December 27, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

20 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Apparently helping a sovereign state maintain its integrity in the light of a crazed dictator illegally invading it is due to "vested interests".

Well, yeah. A vested interest in law and order. A vested interest in democracy and self-determination. And a vested interest that past mistakes of appeasement, mirrored through decades of history, are not repeated.

Until Putin and his cronies are in the Hague, we mustn't falter or fail.

 

[horsefly 4,309]

5 hours ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

 

"I hope I'm not simplifying this", said the simpleton in an hilarious but all too rare moment of self-awareness. When you are reduced to posting as evidence for your cause the utterly banal and naïve rantings of a drug-addled failed comedian with a Messiah complex, best you give up.

[horsefly 4,309]

7 hours ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

Sadly, too many vested interests in keeping the war going, Broadstairs. Look no further than Biden and his handlers.

When rational analysis fails just resort to the same old conspiracy theory tropes. How very boring, and how very dumb. Obviously arms companies will make money supplying weapons, duh! The point is that the people defending their country from an illegal invasion by the army of a crazed dictator want and need those weapons to fight their rightful cause. Perhaps you would rather the US hadn't supplied the UK weapons during WWII? Perhaps you think the US should have told us to make peace with Hitler instead of allowing those "vested interests" to profit?

But do feel free to look a bit further and tell us just how "Biden and his handlers" are profiting from this war by aiding Ukraine to fight back against Russian tyranny. Then perhaps explain how allowing Russia to succeed in defeating Ukraine would make Europe and the world a safer place.

[Herman 9,795]

13 hours ago, MooreMarriot said:

Another accident involving a fall from a window :

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64101437

Is "sausage tycoon" a euphemism?

[Daz Sparks 1,159]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

"I hope I'm not simplifying this", said the simpleton in an hilarious but all too rare moment of self-awareness. When you are reduced to posting as evidence for your cause the utterly banal and naïve rantings of a drug-addled failed comedian with a Messiah complex, best you give up.

Is this the same Donald Trump that cosied up to Putin whilst at the same time threatened to withdraw US Military aid if Zelensky didn't "assist" his 2020 election campaign? 

Come now, anyone that attaches a single shred of credibility to anything that blight on humanity says, needs a word with themselves.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Daz Sparks

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

10 hours ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

 

Which missed the point. The point is very simple. Putin has proven time and time again that he cannot be trusted. Ukraine signed their nukes away. Putin invaded Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia in 2008. He unilaterally annexed the Crimea in 2014. He's now aimed for the Donbas.

Trump is not saying anything wrong by saying there should be a negotiated solution. However, if Putin's starting conditions involve having the Crimea or the Donbas recognised as Russian, there is nothing whatsoever to negotiate. If he says he will respect Ukrainian sovereignty of internationally recognised borders, then that may be reason enough for cautious negotiation. Until then, it is obvious that he is acting in bad faith.

Anything else sells Ukraine short and, worse still, sets a truly dreadful precedent for crazed dictators who want to invade other countries. Brand says he doesn't want to normalise war. Not enabling Ukraine to resist will normalise invasion and probably normalise war anyway.

Every single one of us here in this thread, I am sure, would like a negotiated settlement. However, the borders and sovereignty of another country are not matters for negotiation.

Edited December 28, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Herman 9,795]

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

Just now, Herman said:

Extra brownie points for being dead in front of the Brandenburg Gate, so not far from the site of the Führerbunker.

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

13 hours ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

Sadly, too many vested interests in keeping the war going, Broadstairs. Look no further than Biden and his handlers.

 

58 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Which missed the point. The point is very simple. Putin has proven time and time again that he cannot be trusted. Ukraine signed their nukes away. Putin invaded Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia in 2008. He unilaterally annexed the Crimea in 2014. He's now aimed for the Donbas.

Trump is not saying anything wrong by saying there should be a negotiated solution. However, if Putin's starting conditions involve having the Crimea or the Donbas recognised as Russian, there is nothing whatsoever to negotiate. If he says he will respect Ukrainian sovereignty of internationally recognised borders, then that may be reason enough for cautious negotiation. Until then, it is obvious that he is acting in bad faith.

Anything else sells Ukraine short and, worse still, sets a truly dreadful precedent for crazed dictators who want to invade other countries. Brand says he doesn't want to normalise war. Not enabling Ukraine to resist will normalise invasion and probably normalise war anyway.

Every single one of us here in this thread, I am sure, would like a negotiated settlement. However, the borders and sovereignty of another country are not matters for negotiation.

I always feel that with people like these - so easily led and unquestioning - should be flown to Putin to sit down live on RT with a nice cup of Polonium 210 tea and have a discussion about the war and how they think Putin is such nice man.

Sadly only in the free world do we allow such loons to promote their nonsense. Useful idiots no doubt to Putin.

[horsefly 4,309]

15 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

I always feel that with people like these - so easily led and unquestioning - should be flown to Putin to sit down live on RT with a nice cup of Polonium 210 tea and have a discussion about the war and how they think Putin is such nice man.

Sadly only in the free world do we allow such loons to promote their nonsense. Useful idiots no doubt to Putin.

Yep! Imagine being so thick that you are actually impressed by the Putin poodle Trump saying there needs to be peace in Ukraine. FFS! The only person who doesn't want peace in Ukraine is Putin. Thank God Biden is president, otherwise there would no longer be a Ukraine left for there to be peace in.

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

27 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

I always feel that with people like these - so easily led and unquestioning - should be flown to Putin to sit down live on RT with a nice cup of Polonium 210 tea and have a discussion about the war and how they think Putin is such nice man.

Sadly only in the free world do we allow such loons to promote their nonsense. Useful idiots no doubt to Putin.

Just to double-check, you've quoted me as a counterpoint and not as a "useful idiot" to Putin, right?

[Daz Sparks 1,159]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Just to double-check, you've quoted me as a counterpoint and not as a "useful idiot" to Putin, right?

I think that's what he done there GS 😉 ...

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

1 minute ago, Daz Sparks said:

I think that's what he done there GS 😉 ...

I thought so as well, but then there was the "people like these" bit, which made me start wondering. Probably overthinking shizz as usual, ha.

Edited December 28, 2022 by TheGunnShow

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

38 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Just to double-check, you've quoted me as a counterpoint and not as a "useful idiot" to Putin, right?

Of course TGS. It's the Putin / Trump apologists or simpletons like Brand my pithy comment was aimed at!   

Trump, let me get this right, is being threatened with charges that amount to insurrection and treason (as well as a pile of lesser ones). I also seem to recall seeing somewhere a sort of quid pro quo nod and a wink between Putin and Trump in the last election.

And some people still believe these guys be they of the left or right. The mind boggles.

Edited December 28, 2022 by Yellow Fever
spelling

[benchwarmer 625]

It's not complicated.  Putin is deliberately targeting civilians.  That is a war crime.  Arrest him.

 

[kirku 1,334]

1 hour ago, TheGunnShow said:

Just to double-check, you've quoted me as a counterpoint and not as a "useful idiot" to Putin, right?

100pc vatnik, your card is marked

[kirku 1,334]

On 26/12/2022 at 10:34, Daz Sparks said:

However, despite the above, more sensible heads in the Pentagon, the UK, France and other NATO members got to work with added haste from 2014. It is no accident that NLAW, Javelin and other NATO weapons were seen in use from day one of Putin's SMO, neither was it accidental that the Ukrainian Military were so well strategically prepared and were in receipt of significant intelligence assistance.

2014 and 2022.

And and old joke, but relevant to the discussion:

 

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

1 hour ago, benchwarmer said:

It's not complicated.  Putin is deliberately targeting civilians.  That is a war crime.  Arrest him.

 

the decision whether its a war crime to bomb the cfuk out of Aleppo or Baghdad or Ukraine is not up to us but down to a biased media that has form in painting war crimes as collateral damage or the worst of terms 'humanitarian intervention'. They get a mull-able public in many countries to think their way by amplifying false information and les on a daily basis.

Pouring fuel on the fire and keeping the flames alive until all of Ukraine is waste land seems to be a method of punishing those who anointed the mass murderer of 50-100.000 Poles Lvov, not to speak of the most of kviev jewish population at BabiYar. Then there are the excess murder of Poles in Volhynia and  eastern Galicia which all went unpunished by international law, war crimes to you and me. Most of the victims of that massacre were women and children.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The monies  from FTX which spilled into private coffers via Sam Banmans Fried and his sister company run by his wife seem to have found a lucky spender in Mrs, Zelenski who spent 40.000 In Paris for the festivities. watch this financial hyste disappear into the long grass, as some of the monies were given to help the democratic mid term campaign. Biden and his son should be investigated.

[horsefly 4,309]

31 minutes ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

the decision whether its a war crime to bomb the cfuk out of Aleppo or Baghdad or Ukraine is not up to us but down to a biased media that has form in painting war crimes as collateral damage or the worst of terms 'humanitarian intervention'. They get a mull-able public in many countries to think their way by amplifying false information and les on a daily basis.

Pouring fuel on the fire and keeping the flames alive until all of Ukraine is waste land seems to be a method of punishing those who anointed the mass murderer of 50-100.000 Poles Lvov, not to speak of the most of kviev jewish population at BabiYar. Then there are the excess murder of Poles in Volhynia and  eastern Galicia which all went unpunished by international law, war crimes to you and me. Most of the victims of that massacre were women and children.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The monies  from FTX which spilled into private coffers via Sam Banmans Fried and his sister company run by his wife seem to have found a lucky spender in Mrs, Zelenski who spent 40.000 In Paris for the festivities. watch this financial hyste disappear into the long grass, as some of the monies were given to help the democratic mid term campaign. Biden and his son should be investigated.

Thanks for that brilliant intervention. Clearly we should let Russia commit mass murder, rape, and torture their way to victory in the Ukraine; how else can a war crime committed by the Ukrainian Insurgent Army in WWII be compensated. 

Do you actually re-read what you have written before you shame yourself publicly?

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

4 hours ago, horsefly said:

Thank God Biden is president, otherwise there would no longer be a Ukraine left for there to be peace in.

😄 You serious?

It was under Obama and Biden that Russia initially invaded Ukraine, not Trump. Hillary Clinton went to Russia, serving as Obama's surrogate, to offer the Russian Foreign Minister a prop "Reset Button" (with "reset" misspelled) in order to apologise for George W. Bush who turned relations between the USA and the KGB (I mean, Russia 🙃) to 💩

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

1 hour ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

the decision whether its a war crime to bomb the cfuk out of Aleppo or Baghdad or Ukraine is not up to us but down to a biased media that has form in painting war crimes as collateral damage or the worst of terms 'humanitarian intervention'. They get a mull-able public in many countries to think their way by amplifying false information and les on a daily basis.

Pouring fuel on the fire and keeping the flames alive until all of Ukraine is waste land seems to be a method of punishing those who anointed the mass murderer of 50-100.000 Poles Lvov, not to speak of the most of kviev jewish population at BabiYar. Then there are the excess murder of Poles in Volhynia and  eastern Galicia which all went unpunished by international law, war crimes to you and me. Most of the victims of that massacre were women and children.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

The monies  from FTX which spilled into private coffers via Sam Banmans Fried and his sister company run by his wife seem to have found a lucky spender in Mrs, Zelenski who spent 40.000 In Paris for the festivities. watch this financial hyste disappear into the long grass, as some of the monies were given to help the democratic mid term campaign. Biden and his son should be investigated.

👍

[horsefly 4,309]

37 minutes ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

😄 You serious?

It was under Obama and Biden that Russia initially invaded Ukraine, not Trump. Hillary Clinton went to Russia, serving as Obama's surrogate, to offer the Russian Foreign Minister a prop "Reset Button" (with "reset" misspelled) in order to apologise for George W. Bush who turned relations between the USA and the KGB (I mean, Russia 🙃) to 💩

Hahaha! What a joker you are. You seem to have forgotten that Trump was Mr "America First" who abdicated all responsibility for international order. So utterly craven was he in the presence of Putin that we were treated to the most embarrassing performance by a US president ever witnessed on the international stage, supporting Putin against the advice of all his security services:

 

 

[Herman 9,795]

There's a lot of it about.😂

 

[Hook's-Walk-Canary 213]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Hahaha! What a joker you are. You seem to have forgotten that Trump was Mr "America First" who abdicated all responsibility for international order. So utterly craven was he in the presence of Putin that we were treated to the most embarrassing performance by a US president ever witnessed on the international stage, supporting Putin against the advice of all his security services.

 

A simple question for you: Did Russia attack and reattack Ukraine under Trump's watch?

[horsefly 4,309]

23 minutes ago, Hook's-Walk-Canary said:

A simple question for you: Did Russia attack and reattack Ukraine under Trump's watch?

That's a simpleton's question. As relevant as pointing out that Russia invaded on Johnson's watch or any other leader of a country at the time. Just what was Biden supposed to do to prevent Russia invading? He made it very clear that he would support Ukraine with massive aid and sanctions against Russia, and that is precisely what he has done. The idea that Trump would have done anything to support Ukraine has already been trashed by Trump's very own words since the invasion, and those of his Maga morons in the Congress.

And btw, was Trump caught on a phone recording refusing to provide military aid to the Ukraine unless they did him a favour by announcing an investigation of Hunter Biden?

Edited December 28, 2022 by horsefly

[TheGunnShow 5,953]

Of course Putin wouldn't attack with Trump in power. He was already getting what he wanted!!!

Opinion | Why Didn’t Putin Invade Under Trump? It Wasn’t Personal. - POLITICO

[Daz Sparks 1,159]

2 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Of course Putin wouldn't attack with Trump in power. He was already getting what he wanted!!!

Opinion | Why Didn’t Putin Invade Under Trump? It Wasn’t Personal. - POLITICO

“ Maybe NATO will dissolve , and that’s OK, that’s not the worst thing in the world.”

Taken from above link ^^^^

Jesus H Christ, thank fcuk he's no longer in power.

[horsefly 4,309]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Of course Putin wouldn't attack with Trump in power. He was already getting what he wanted!!!

Opinion | Why Didn’t Putin Invade Under Trump? It Wasn’t Personal. - POLITICO

Great article, explained so that even a simpleton might understand why Trump was Putin's greatest ally.

[Daz Sparks 1,159]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Great article, explained so that even a simpleton might understand why Trump was Putin's greatest ally.

Not a chance!