Striving to make sense of the Ukraine war

[Indy 3,284]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Actually, it has been answered. I believe Zelensky is telling the truth as he's in a position to know if Ukranian forces fired multiple missiles at Ukraine, which would be an insane act on Ukraine's part. In contrast, Russia is firing many missiles in a Western direction that could easily overshoot into Poland, so you're peddling Russian propaganda, up to and including pushing the idea that it's more likely that Zelensky's lying than Putin is.

Where have been peddling anything, you have narrow views, how do you know Zelensky is telling the truth when Biden is stating something else entirely? I’m not pushing anything I’ve been asking for facts before jumping to conclusions like Zelensky has.

I’ll leave it there as you’re known to only be on here for the arguments not to debate, merely push your viewpoint to get going, I can only surmise you have a very lonely existence. Have a good day.

Edited November 16, 2022 by Indy

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

15 minutes ago, Indy said:

Where have been peddling anything, you have narrow views, how do you know Zelensky is telling the truth when Biden is stating something else entirely? I’m not pushing anything I’ve been asking for facts before jumping to conclusions like Zelensky has.

I’ll leave it there as you’re known to only be on here for the arguments not to debate, merely push your viewpoint to get going, I can only surmise you have a very lonely existence. Have a good day.

Yes, you are. You're supporting the suggestion that Zelensky could be lying over and above the obvious explanation of some of the myriad missiles Russia is firing overshooting into Poland.

It's fair enough to want all the facts before action is taken, but actually pushing conspiracy theory as something to be seriously considered like you are is another thing.

Incidentally, the claims the missiles may have been Ukranian are not from Biden, but from anonymous US officials; if you're questioning whether people are telling the truth, there's every reason to question whether the US sources claiming they may have been Ukranian are telling the truth given that NATO would be obliged to do something if it was concluded that the Russians fired the missiles that landed in Poland.

Edited November 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[7HAR1980 102]

U.S. officials say initial assessments suggest Ukrainian forces fired missile that struck Poland: AP

The Associated Press reported that preliminary assessments by U.S. officials suggest Ukrainian forces fired a missile that struck Poland. The missile was fired at an incoming Russian missile, the AP reported, citing three officials.

AP also said the latest assessment of the origin of the missile contradicts its earlier reports that said Russian missiles had crossed into Poland, citing a senior U.S. intelligence official.

 

Littleyellowbirdie might have to take up his grievances with U.S. officials for calling Zelensky a liar!

I wonder who would be so desperate for NATO to join in a war with Russia? 

[Well b back 3,190]

48 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yes, you are. You're supporting the suggestion that Zelensky could be lying over and above the obvious explanation of some of the myriad missiles Russia is firing overshooting into Poland.

It's fair enough to want all the facts before action is taken, but actually pushing conspiracy theory as something to be seriously considered like you are is another thing.

Incidentally, the claims the missiles may have been Ukranian are not from Biden, but from anonymous US officials; if you're questioning whether people are telling the truth, there's every reason to question whether the US sources claiming they may have been Ukranian are telling the truth given that NATO would be obliged to do something if it was concluded that the Russians fired the missiles that landed in Poland.

Stop talking s*** and scaring people.

As it stands America ( Bidens spokespeople ) are saying it is highly unlikely this missile was fired from Russia. 
Whoever fired it needs to hold their hands up and say it was an accident. It seems Poland will invoke article 4 at 10am.

[horsefly 4,287]

Seems it could well be that they were Ukrainian fired missiles launched in an attempt to knock out Russian missiles. Of course, the relevant point is that the Ukrainians shouldn't have been put into a position where they needed to fire any missiles at all to defend their civilian population from murderous attacks from an invading army. The allies will have to up the ante in some way to deter Putin raining death on innocent Ukranian civilians as revenge for his abysmal military failures.

[Indy 3,284]

7 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Seems it could well be that they were Ukrainian fired missiles launched in an attempt to knock out Russian missiles. Of course, the relevant point is that the Ukrainians shouldn't have been put into a position where they needed to fire any missiles at all to defend their civilian population from murderous attacks from an invading army. The allies will have to up the ante in some way to deter Putin raining death on innocent Ukranian civilians as revenge for his abysmal military failures.

Indeed your point is absolutely right, and if fired at incoming missile as accidental incident to hit Poland, careful and correct response needs to be put in place. Side note to all this Russian change in hitting civilian infrastructure is abhorrent and should be stopped.

Until all facts are in no one should be pointing fingers and escalating this situation. Additional question has to be answered to why any missile fired went into Poland, where it was fired from and at what. De escalation is required not any escalation.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

22 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Stop talking s*** and scaring people.

As it stands America ( Bidens spokespeople ) are saying it is highly unlikely this missile was fired from Russia. 
Whoever fired it needs to hold their hands up and say it was an accident. It seems Poland will invoke article 4 at 10am.

From Russia is not the same as by Russian forces, plenty of whom are in Ukraine.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Seems it could well be that they were Ukrainian fired missiles launched in an attempt to knock out Russian missiles. Of course, the relevant point is that the Ukrainians shouldn't have been put into a position where they needed to fire any missiles at all to defend their civilian population from murderous attacks from an invading army. The allies will have to up the ante in some way to deter Putin raining death on innocent Ukranian civilians as revenge for his abysmal military failures.

The way it works with missile interceptions is that you launch missiles into the path of an approaching missile. Russian missiles are being launched from the East to West, therefore intercepting missiles must be launched by Ukraine from West to East. It therefore makes absolutely no sense for a Ukrainian missile to intercept a Russian missile and for them to land four miles West of the Poland/Ukraine border.

Edited November 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/16/ukraine-reacts-as-initial-findings-suggest-it-fired-the-missile-that-hit-poland.html

So it's looking like Ukraine has been prepped to carry the can for the incident to let NATO off the hook with regard to an attack on a NATO country by Russia, while framing it as having been avoidable if Russia wasn't obliterating Ukrainian infrastructure with missile attacks in the first place. Presumably Ukraine will be getting substantial air defence support in return for being the patsies.

[Indy 3,284]

Funny that Ukraine so quick to blame Russia attacking Poland, now it is becoming clear it was probably a Ukrainian air defence missile. Next process is to identify where it was launched from and what it’s intended target was. Why was it heading towards the west when the missile launch from Russia was from the east?

It is a potential for a world war and as I said from the start cool heads needed to get to the bottom of all facts before sabre rattling.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

6 minutes ago, Indy said:

Funny that Ukraine so quick to blame Russia attacking Poland, now it is becoming clear it was probably a Ukrainian air defence missile. Next process is to identify where it was launched from and what it’s intended target was. Why was it heading towards the west when the missile launch from Russia was from the east?

It is a potential for a world war and as I said from the start cool heads needed to get to the bottom of all facts before sabre rattling.

No it isn't clear. They're obviously having to be the patsies to avoid escalating things with NATO. There's no way an S300 missile 'accidentally' gets fired West instead of East.

Funny how you're normally so quick to believe the US lies about everything, but not this occasion when it has a clear motive to do so to dodge invoking NATO against Russia, preferring to instead take claimed findings at face value to beat Ukraine over the head for being victims of Russian destruction of its infrastructure.

Edited November 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,749]

32 minutes ago, Indy said:

Funny that Ukraine so quick to blame Russia attacking Poland, now it is becoming clear it was probably a Ukrainian air defence missile. Next process is to identify where it was launched from and what it’s intended target was. Why was it heading towards the west when the missile launch from Russia was from the east?

It is a potential for a world war and as I said from the start cool heads needed to get to the bottom of all facts before sabre rattling.

 

30 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No it isn't clear. They're obviously having to be the patsies to avoid escalating things with NATO. There's no way an S300 missile 'accidentally' gets fired West instead of East.

Funny how you're normally so quick to believe the US lies about everything, but not this occasion when it has a clear motive to do so to dodge invoking NATO against Russia, preferring to instead take claimed findings at face value to beat Ukraine over the head for being victims of Russian destruction of its infrastructure.

It's been tentatively  identified I think as S300 - and more or less accepted as a Ukrainian byfall although I do recall that S300's have a ground attack mode for those of a conspiratorial frame of mind.

As to what direction or how the missile(s) arrived in Poland that could well depend on what it was after (and where its target was launched - Belarus?), if it operated correctly and what may have happened post 'contact'.

What it all really goes to show is that one you start shooting all bets are off as to where you might end up. Something Putin repeatably fails to learn and keeps digging ever deeper holes.

[Indy 3,284]

2 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

It's been tentatively  identified I think as S300 - and more or less accepted as a Ukrainian byfall although I do recall that S300's have a ground attack mode for those of a conspiratorial frame of mind.

As to what direction or how the missile(s) arrived in Poland that could well depend on what it was after (and where its target was launched - Belarus?), if it operated correctly and what may have happened post 'contact'.

What it all really goes to show is that one you start shooting all bets are off as to where you might end up. Something Putin repeatably fails to learn and keeps digging ever deeper holes.

Indeed and with modern detection and tracking it won’t be long before the missile launch site is identified and can be traced. Once all facts are correlated then those in NATO can act accordingly. All this quick to voice condemnation and point fingers is totally wrong.

As above it’s still the fault of Putin and his regime as without this war there’d be no missiles but the full fact and the intention of who fired it needs to be addressed, regardless of Russia or Ukraine.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

19 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

 

It's been tentatively  identified I think as S300 - and more or less accepted as a Ukrainian byfall although I do recall that S300's have a ground attack mode for those of a conspiratorial frame of mind.

As to what direction or how the missile(s) arrived in Poland that could well depend on what it was after (and where its target was launched - Belarus?), if it operated correctly and what may have happened post 'contact'.

What it all really goes to show is that one you start shooting all bets are off as to where you might end up. Something Putin repeatably fails to learn and keeps digging ever deeper holes.

12 minutes ago, Indy said:

Indeed and with modern detection and tracking it won’t be long before the missile launch site is identified and can be traced. Once all facts are correlated then those in NATO can act accordingly. All this quick to voice condemnation and point fingers is totally wrong.

As above it’s still the fault of Putin and his regime as without this war there’d be no missiles but the full fact and the intention of who fired it needs to be addressed, regardless of Russia or Ukraine.

Absolutely, and the Ukranians know full well that that would be the case regarding radar tracking of missiles, which makes the idea of a 'false flag' attack on Poland by Ukraine as ridiculous as the idea that Ukraine could accidentally send a vehicle-launched, command-guided missile West to intercept missiles coming from the North and East.

But we're supposed to believe both of these are more likely than a Russian missile heading West going too far/targeted just over the border for a plausibly deniable attack that will get NATO in a tizz.

Update: Poland has announced it was probably a 'stray' Ukrainian missile. Blatantly a cover to avoid escalation, which is fine by me, but there's no way Ukraine is at fault.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-hails-chinas-opposition-nuclear-threats-2022-11-15/

Edited November 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

4 hours ago, 7HAR1980 said:

U.S. officials say initial assessments suggest Ukrainian forces fired missile that struck Poland: AP

The Associated Press reported that preliminary assessments by U.S. officials suggest Ukrainian forces fired a missile that struck Poland. The missile was fired at an incoming Russian missile, the AP reported, citing three officials.

AP also said the latest assessment of the origin of the missile contradicts its earlier reports that said Russian missiles had crossed into Poland, citing a senior U.S. intelligence official.

 

Littleyellowbirdie might have to take up his grievances with U.S. officials for calling Zelensky a liar!

I wonder who would be so desperate for NATO to join in a war with Russia? 

Actually, I haven't said they called him a liar; I said that's the implication of Indy's claim coupled with Zelensky's accusation against Russia.

Whatever, short of Ukraine actually having launched a deliberate attack, which obviously isn't the case, Russia's war and indiscriminate destruction of civilian infrastructure in Ukraine with missile attacks is the ultimate cause of missile debris finishing up in Poland.

Edited November 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Indy 3,284]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Actually, I haven't said they called him a liar; I said that's the implication of Indy's claim coupled with Zelensky's accusation against Russia.

Whatever, short of Ukraine actually having launched a deliberate attack, which obviously isn't the case, Russia's war and indiscriminate destruction of civilian infrastructure in Ukraine with missile attacks is the ultimate cause of missile debris finishing up in Poland.

My claim, what claim? I quoted Biden on the BBC, I said those conspiracy theories…..nothing to do with me! 

Additionally this constant view that Ukraine can do no wrong is a little narrow minded, even now we’ve had Ukrainian officials jumping all over this, accusations thrown at Russia and even now wanting evidence that it was a Ukrainian fired missile! I think I’ll wait for the facts and they look pretty much in line with a probable Ukrainian missile gone astray, if it’s found not to have been fired at any incoming Russian missile, then of course questions need to be asked why was it fired and why did it end up in Poland! Those are the facts as reported at this present time.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

My claim, what claim? I quoted Biden on the BBC, I said those conspiracy theories…..nothing to do with me! 

Additionally this constant view that Ukraine can do no wrong is a little narrow minded, even now we’ve had Ukrainian officials jumping all over this, accusations thrown at Russia and even now wanting evidence that it was a Ukrainian fired missile! I think I’ll wait for the facts and they look pretty much in line with a probable Ukrainian missile gone astray, if it’s found not to have been fired at any incoming Russian missile, then of course questions need to be asked why was it fired and why did it end up in Poland! Those are the facts as reported at this present time.

Ukraine is the victim here. Period. That's not narrow-minded; that's fact.

Edited November 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Well b back 3,190]

6 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Actually, I haven't said they called him a liar; I said that's the implication of Indy's claim coupled with Zelensky's accusation against Russia.

Whatever, short of Ukraine actually having launched a deliberate attack, which obviously isn't the case, Russia's war and indiscriminate destruction of civilian infrastructure in Ukraine with missile attacks is the ultimate cause of missile debris finishing up in Poland.

NATO are now saying highly probable this was fired by Ukraine.

Good job world leaders aren’t as quick as you to say things without evidence

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

Just now, Well b back said:

NATO are now saying highly probable this was fired by Ukraine.

Good job world leaders aren’t as quick as you to say things without evidence

I have the luxury of being able to speculate as a private individual, as many others do on many subjects on this forum.

[Indy 3,284]

1 minute ago, Well b back said:

NATO are now saying highly probable this was fired by Ukraine.

Good job world leaders aren’t as quick as you to say things without evidence

Unfortunately the Ukrainian leaders was!

[Well b back 3,190]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Ukraine is the victim here. Period.

F*** me nobody has said they aren’t you were just makin s*** up

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

1 minute ago, Indy said:

Unfortunately the Ukrainian leaders was!

Oh you really are a proper Putin apologist aren't you?

@Well b back, here's a perfect example of @indy using every excuse to deflect blame for this war from Russia.

Edited November 16, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Well b back 3,190]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I have the luxury of being able to speculate as a private individual, as many others do on many subjects on this forum.

Then stop accusing me of making stuff up when you were making unfounded statements.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

Just now, Well b back said:

Then stop accusing me of making stuff up when you were making unfounded statements.

Where have I accused you of making stuff up?

[Well b back 3,190]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Oh you really are a proper Putin apologist aren't you?

No he’s not.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

Just now, Well b back said:

No he’s not.

Oh really? Seems pretty keen to jump on Zelensky to me. Much more so than he ever is regarding Putin.

[Indy 3,284]

Just now, Well b back said:

No he’s not.

WBB you won’t win, he’s just an angry little man with no friends! He’s only on here to argue! Pick his fight, he’s really not worth going back too!👍

[littleyellowbirdie 2,513]

Just now, Indy said:

WBB you won’t win, he’s just an angry little man with no friends! He’s only on here to argue! Pick his fight, he’s really not worth going back too!👍

Sure, you imagine your story to suit yourself. That's you down to a tee.

[Well b back 3,190]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Where have I accused you of making stuff up?

You said we were using conspiracy theories and info from US citizens. It was from Biden and NATO.

Are Biden and NATO also Putin apologists, we put the facts not s*** to scare people

[Indy 3,284]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Oh really? Seems pretty keen to jump on Zelensky to me. Much more so than he ever is regarding Putin.

I’m quick to jump on any leader who quotes things incorrectly trying to escalate war! Putin should have been taken out months ago, strange he’s still around. Zelensky is at every stage keen to get NATO involved. Sorry but excuse me if I don’t want to see the entire European states bombed to bits like Ukraine!