George Floyd - Jury has a verdict

[Fen Canary 833]

On 22/04/2021 at 09:35, Thirsty Lizard said:

Although anyone with half a brain might stop to ask why it is that black people who make up a minority of the population of the US make up a majority of the people who are arrested? But then since 'Driving while being black' is basically a crime in the eyes of a significant minority of American police officers it's probably not too difficult to work out. 

Maybe because they’re more likely to commit crimes is the reason they’re more likely to be arrested. For instance black people make up 16% of the US but are responsible for 55% of murder convictions. 

[Fen Canary 833]

On 22/04/2021 at 18:08, Herman said:

I think we are going to get another 15 pages of Fen dissembling and distracting. 

Not at all, I just disagree with the simplistic answers peddled whenever race is mentioned 

[kick it off 1,952]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Not at all, I just disagree with the simplistic answers peddled whenever race is mentioned 

Yet you insist on consistently cherry picking simplistic statistics to "prove" your point. Black men shot dead by police are twice as likely to be unarmed as white people shot dead by police - that is a statistic that is a direct comparison and rates of offending has no bearing upon it. Why do police choose to use lethal force on unarmed black men twice as often as unarmed white people if there is no systemic racism (conscious or otherwise)?

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

Maybe because they’re more likely to commit crimes is the reason they’re more likely to be arrested. For instance black people make up 16% of the US but are responsible for 55% of murder convictions. 

The point which clearly went over your head was why are they more likely to commit crime? The answer is poverty. Why is poverty so endemic amongst black communities in the USA? That'll be the structural racism you absolutely refuse to give any credence to. The typical black family has 10% of the wealth of the typical white family in the USA.

Here's another one for you (using data from 1.2 million 911 calls). White police officers more likely to use a gun than black officers. The more black people in a neighbourhood, the more likely the white officers are to use a gun. Can you explain that one away?

Edited April 24, 2021 by kick it off

[horsefly 4,303]

6 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

 

So what! An ex-police officer who has no access to the jury's deliberation comes out in defence of the police. I can find you plenty of others (many more in fact, some of whom who have already been quoted on this thread) who say precisely the opposite. Perhaps he, like you should take a look at the statistics.

[horsefly 4,303]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/systemic-racism-debate-sparked-by-video-footage-of-white-man-fleeing-from-police/ar-BB1fINhl?ocid=msedgntp

61 year-old white man attacks police officer with a hammer, then drives off with another whose arm is trapped in the window. No shots fired. 13 year-old boy of colour drops weapon and raises arms as instructed. Shots fired and boy killed. 

 

13

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by horsefly

[Herman 9,780]

3 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Not at all, I just disagree with the simplistic answers peddled whenever race is mentioned 

It seems that when we are talking about question A you want to start talking about question C completely diverting attention away to what is being discussed. It seems to a regular trick from the right wing on most subjects.

[Barbe bleu 827]

6 hours ago, kick it off said:

 

 

[Jools 584]

16 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

Maybe because they’re more likely to commit crimes is the reason they’re more likely to be arrested. For instance black people make up 16% of the US but are responsible for 55% of murder convictions. 

You can't state simple facts like that, FC..

It's not allowed in the world of the Lefty -- They want you to see the world how they see it, not how it actually is.

[Fen Canary 833]

15 hours ago, Herman said:

It seems that when we are talking about question A you want to start talking about question C completely diverting attention away to what is being discussed. It seems to a regular trick from the right wing on most subjects.

I certainly wouldn’t consider myself right wing, and I’d argue it’s people such as Horsefly who is of the new identity politics left who tend to answer the questions they want rather than the ones that were asked.

However my point was that too many on here use racism as a simplistic reason for every disparity between different ethnicities

They’ll point out that black people are killed by police at a rate disproportionate to their percentage of the population, therefore the only explanation is that the police are racist. They’ll ignore the fact that black people tend to live in poor areas with much higher crime rates, and are much more likely to commit and be involved in crimes so come into contact with the police much more than other ethnicities. If you break it down further into number of people killed by police per arrest (for every x amount of white people arrested y amount are killed vs for every x amount of black people arrested y amount are killed) the number for whites is actually higher. Apologies I don’t have the exact figures to hand but I’ll dig them out.

Now I don’t doubt that in the case of America that many black people live in poorer areas due to the historical legacy of racist policies, and more should be done to improve the lives of those born into those areas, but it’s far too simplistic to simply state the police are a racist organisation simply because blacks people are arrested at a disproportionate rate.

What is your solution to this, should they arrest innocent people of other ethnicities, or ignore crimes committed by black people to bring the arrest and conviction rates into line with the population demographics?

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

On 24/04/2021 at 01:37, Fen Canary said:

Maybe because they’re more likely to commit crimes is the reason they’re more likely to be arrested. For instance black people make up 16% of the US but are responsible for 55% of murder convictions. 

what a load of s... , if you have the wrong hue in the US, you also have limited opportunities, a rough neighborhood and all that comes with it,   and daring to have an air freshener hanging from your car mirror is enough to face badly trained gun touting goons that espouse to just the same gang culture they are facing on the street.

The military police at t. Bliss, El Paso Texas, beat up a German soldier for spelling his name when they stopped his car, they just could not get that he was actually spelling his name, just alluding that he might take the mickey out of them. Every time they asked to spell his name, which was T.Rump, they got more and more agitated to the extend that they pulled him out of the car and gave him a black eye and beat him up. This was the 1970's US.

Just to explain the moral values of a well trained military police man who can be expected to serve/grace any town America once finished with his military service. I hate to think what would have happened if he was not Bavarian but a black US soldier.

Edited April 25, 2021 by nevermind, neoliberalism has had it

[horsefly 4,303]

On 24/04/2021 at 02:37, Fen Canary said:

Maybe because they’re more likely to commit crimes is the reason they’re more likely to be arrested. For instance black people make up 16% of the US but are responsible for 55% of murder convictions. 

 

On 24/04/2021 at 02:38, Fen Canary said:

Not at all, I just disagree with the simplistic answers peddled whenever race is mentioned 

Oh dear! How ridiculous to post the latter comment after having posted the most crassly simplistic statistic previously. You would think even someone who can't be bothered to do any research would at least be aware that the disparity in the likelihood of being convicted if the defendant is black is precisely one of the issues in contention. Just as disparity in the likelihood of being arrested for virtually any alleged crime if one is black is an issue in contention.

Not only a crass understanding of statistics and the complexities of their interpretation, but no link to those that are casually included. Perhaps that isn't a surprise because they are completely misleading. Here, for example, are the Department of Justice (FBI) figures for 2018:

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls#:~:text=Expanded Homicide Data Table 6 , 122 11 more rows

Try these too:

https://drrichswier.com/2020/06/28/96876/

So, yes Herman is spot on with his crtiticism of the constant overly simplistic, ill-informed dross posted by you.

Edited April 25, 2021 by horsefly

[Fen Canary 833]

But you’ve just proved what I’ve been saying. There were roughly the same number of black and white murderers in the states in the year you’ve chosen with around 3000 of each, yet whites outnumber blacks in the States by close to 5:1. Therefore it stands to reason that blacks people will be arrested at a disproportionate rate to the population demographics of the country

[horsefly 4,303]

No! My complaint was with the contradiction in your claim that others peddle simplistic answers when that is precisely what you are doing with the bare statement of that stat. Statistics are just that, statistics. Their relevance is only determined by the critical analysis in which they are explained and utilised. 

Here is an example of a non-simplistic analysis of the statistics:

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/shootings-by-police-in-the-united-states-of-america-by-race-gender-and-age.html

 

In the meantime perhaps you might consider whether this belligerent (possibly drunk) police officer would have behaved this way towards a white person

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/viral-video-shows-police-officer-racially-profiling-black-man-at-diner/ar-BB1g3TZt?ocid=msedgntp

Edited April 26, 2021 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,303]

 

[Fen Canary 833]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

No! My complaint was with the contradiction in your claim that others peddle simplistic answers when that is precisely what you are doing with the bare statement of that stat. Statistics are just that, statistics. Their relevance is only determined by the critical analysis in which they are explained and utilised. 

Here is an example of a non-simplistic analysis of the statistics:

https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/shootings-by-police-in-the-united-states-of-america-by-race-gender-and-age.html

 

In the meantime perhaps you might consider whether this belligerent (possibly drunk) police officer would have behaved this way towards a white person

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/viral-video-shows-police-officer-racially-profiling-black-man-at-diner/ar-BB1g3TZt?ocid=msedgntp

I’ve included a table for the number of arrests in the US for 2019, as the statistics you’ve provided are largely meaningless without them. Without knowing how many people of each race are arrested in the first place, and for which crimes, we can’t tell if the number of police shootings differ vastly between the races.

You state that around 1/4 victims of police shootings are black, despite them only making up 1/8 of the population therefore the police are racist. However the table below shows that around 1/4 of arrests are of black people, therefore it stands to reason that 1/4 of shootings would be against that group. They also make up a higher proportion than that for violent offences, making up around 1/3 of those arrests which may be the ones police are naturally more trigger happy towards.

That’s what I’m referring to in regards to your overly simplistic use of citing numbers without any background information

[horsefly 4,303]

13 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I’ve included a table for the number of arrests in the US for 2019, as the statistics you’ve provided are largely meaningless without them. Without knowing how many people of each race are arrested in the first place, and for which crimes, we can’t tell if the number of police shootings differ vastly between the races.

You state that around 1/4 victims of police shootings are black, despite them only making up 1/8 of the population therefore the police are racist. However the table below shows that around 1/4 of arrests are of black people, therefore it stands to reason that 1/4 of shootings would be against that group. They also make up a higher proportion than that for violent offences, making up around 1/3 of those arrests which may be the ones police are naturally more trigger happy towards.

That’s what I’m referring to in regards to your overly simplistic use of citing numbers without any background information

Exactly the same over-simplistic correlation of stats presented as if that is where analysis begins and ends. As I have said repeatedly stats are simply stats, and any correlations between stats are merely the starting point for an analysis which involves investigation through a variety of social research methods. For example, your blunt correlation of numbers of arrests with numbers of shootings is strikingly superficial. Before one even begins investigating such a correlation there are questions to ask about why black people are more likely to be arrested for certain "offences" than white people (e.g. possession of small amounts of drugs). 

However, I realise through past experience of your posts that I'm wasting my time expecting you to consider such things.

[horsefly 4,303]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/crime-against-humanity-human-rights-experts-issue-damning-report-on-police-killings-of-black-americans/ar-BB1g6Cz4?ocid=msedgntp

https://inquirycommission.org/website/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Commission-Report-15-April.pdf

[horsefly 4,303]

Seems some police officers never learn:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/man-dies-after-being-pinned-to-the-ground-for-five-minutes-by-california-police/ar-BB1g9aCo?ocid=msedgntp

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

3 hours ago, horsefly said:

Seems some police officers never learn:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/man-dies-after-being-pinned-to-the-ground-for-five-minutes-by-california-police/ar-BB1g9aCo?ocid=msedgntp

Meanwhile, from a s-h-i-thole country to a civilised one...this is how a civilised country handles drunks. Remarkably, no-one got shot.

Almost as if being a policeman needs far more training than just being essentially given a gun and told to go out and do your worst.

I'm amazed that the hard-core Republicans don't see that in many ways, the thin blue line they purport to love so much is being sold short by inadequate training and left unable to do their job as well as they could.
 

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by TheGunnShow

[Jools 584]

🙃

[horsefly 4,303]

22 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

Meanwhile, from a s-h-i-thole country to a civilised one...this is how a civilised country handles drunks. Remarkably, no-one got shot.

Almost as if being a policeman needs far more training than just being essentially given a gun and told to go out and do your worst.

I'm amazed that the hard-core Republicans don't see that in many ways, the thin blue line they purport to love so much is being sold short by inadequate training and left unable to do their job as well as they could.
 

 

Spot on! It doesn't help when the training they do get is provided by someone like this:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/police-training-event-cancelled-after-video-emerges-of-speaker-talking-about-great-post-kill-sex/ar-BB1g9ijR?ocid=msedgdhp

Truly abhorent.

[horsefly 4,303]

10 hours ago, Jools said:

🙃

Pathetic way to get yourself suspended from duty. Doesn't say much for the IQ of this particular buffoon.

[kick it off 1,952]

21 minutes ago, Jools said:

dumb tweet

I'm pretty confident that you are aware exactly how dumb what you are posting is, but are looking for attention so this will be my only response to you, and I won't make the mistake of clicking to see what's beneath the blocked post again.

A man died. Murdered by police. You think a legitimate response to that is to criticise him for a funeral he didn't arrange because celebrities didn't have funerals that were "as good"? Jesus, that's a really hot take... or an incredibly stupid one that would only find favour with basement dwelling morons.

Don't bother responding because I have no interest in feeding your pathetic attention seeking further.