New Tory Leader

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

On 30/01/2023 at 12:07, Well b back said:

Blimey normally easy to decide who is lying but in this case who knows. Johnson says Putin threatened him before the Russians invaded Ukraine, Putin says he is a liar !

but we knew that for a long time. Thing is people seem to like lying snolly ghosters like him.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

1 minute ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

but we knew that for a long time. Thing is people seem to like lying snolly ghosters like him.

The prevalent predictions were a 'cliff-edge', 'collapse of the pound', 'internationally isolated'. Nothing has happened that remotely qualifies as damage to that extent. Arguably, you could even say remain exagerrated grossly, which is another example of how remain's failure to convince the public was avoidable.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The prevalent predictions were a 'cliff-edge', 'collapse of the pound', 'internationally isolated'. Nothing has happened that remotely qualifies as damage to that extent. Arguably, you could even say remain exagerrated grossly, which is another example of how remain's failure to convince the public was avoidable.

So the economic figures are all wrong and we have not financed all the pandemic expenditure from QE. 3.4 million Europeans had no say in their future. What if Scotland has an Independence referendum of Scottish born people only, without their English populus having a say in their future, would you regard that as fair dink um?

[Barbe bleu 837]

4 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

No it won't reignite the debate, because outside a teensy weensy minority, everybody's bored to death with debating something where the die is cast.

You were right of course, that's why only about 5 people bother with these pages now,  but for someone who doesn't want to reignite the debate you seem remarkably active on the about 17 threads currently dedicated to brexit.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

4 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

You were right of course, that's why only about 5 people bother with these pages now,  but for someone who doesn't want to reignite the debate you seem remarkably active on the about 17 threads currently dedicated to brexit.

 

That's exactly it. It's a small gaggle who have  hijacked it and effectively shouted down and ridiculed any opposing views; it's preventing much more interesting and far-reaching debate on here relevant to the UK's way forward. And this is a really really good time for people in the UK to actually start thinking about what they want the future UK to be rather than indulging in the same two-party b0ll0cks that has sunk the country this far.

They're also being ridiculous in refusing to accept the point. All this nonsense about 'never forgiving what leavers did' in one breath while they celebrate well b back for presenting himself as a mug who just believed everything he was told and did actually engage with Foxy when he volunteered an interesting comment yesterday on what he'd have been okay with regarding leaving the EU as a leave voter.

 

[Well b back 3,308]

17 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The prevalent predictions were a 'cliff-edge', 'collapse of the pound', 'internationally isolated'. Nothing has happened that remotely qualifies as damage to that extent. Arguably, you could even say remain exagerrated grossly, which is another example of how remain's failure to convince the public was avoidable.

Brexit got my vote on the basis £350 million a week going to the NHS and Britains needed the jobs. There was no £350 million for the NHS and instead of the jobs going to the British ( who don’t actually need them ) they go to those from Asia and the Americas, but not Europeans. 
I should have a look at the pound and how we are treated as ‘ a third world Country ‘ since Brexit, not just the recovery after Truss destroyed the U.K. For the remainers it may not have been as bad as it could have been, but the leavers just told down right lies that they knew were never going to happen.

In the words of your mate Trump ‘ my vote was stolen ‘.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

1 minute ago, Well b back said:

Brexit got my vote on the basis £350 million a week going to the NHS and Britains needed the jobs. There was no £350 million for the NHS and instead of the jobs going to the British ( who don’t actually need them ) they go to those from Asia and the Americas, but not Europeans. 
I should have a look at the pound and how we are treated as ‘ a third world Country ‘ since Brexit, not just the recovery after Truss destroyed the U.K. For the remainers it may not have been as bad as it could have been, but the leavers just told down right lies that they knew were never going to happen.

In the words of your mate Trump ‘ my vote was stolen ‘.

Don't straw man me. I've never supported Trump or anything he stands for. You gave your vote willingly and you regret it, but that's your personal failure.

[Well b back 3,308]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's exactly it. It's a small gaggle who have  hijacked it and effectively shouted down and ridiculed any opposing views; it's preventing much more interesting and far-reaching debate on here relevant to the UK's way forward. And this is a really really good time for people in the UK to actually start thinking about what they want the future UK to be rather than indulging in the same two-party b0ll0cks that has sunk the country this far.

They're also being ridiculous in refusing to accept the point. All this nonsense about 'never forgiving what leavers did' in one breath while they celebrate well b back for presenting himself as a mug who just believed everything he was told and did actually engage with Foxy when he volunteered an interesting comment yesterday on what he'd have been okay with regarding leaving the EU as a leave voter.

 

You should speak to the youngsters who despise the older generation for taking us out.

And unless you are prepared to call me names to my face don’t do it sunshine.

[Well b back 3,308]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Don't straw man me. I've never supported Trump or anything he stands for. You gave your vote willingly and you regret it, but that's your personal failure.

I gave it after an hour long chat with my MP who lied to me.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

4 minutes ago, Well b back said:

I gave it after an hour long chat with my MP who lied to me.

So who was your MP? What was their record for honesty on other subjects? Did you take any of that into account before essentially voting as they instructed you to?

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie
Incorrect assumption of MP's gender.

[sonyc 5,541]

21 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

that's why only about 5 people bother with these pages now, 

Freedom for Tooting!!

My comrades (all 4 of you) ...Come and join me in the revolution! Viva La Revolution

[Creative Midfielder 2,004]

57 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

It transpires that the bloke who Sunak appointed to investigate the Shaw/Johnson fiasco has been forced to stand down as one of those awful journalist people found out that he is friends with Shaw. You really couldn't make this up.

Yep, and as well as being friends with Shaw his daughter works in the No 10 policy unit  - this lot are so rotten that even Transparency International have finally woken up to what is going on in the UK and dropped us down quite a few places to 18th in their Perceptions of Corruption index - thank goodness they aren't including the massive money-laundering operations in the City of London as corruption or we'd really be trouble 😂

So we are behind a number of countries you would probably expect plus some you maybe wouldn't (Hong Kong, Estonia, Luxembourg and Uruguay for example surprised me with their very clean ranking....) and I imagine TI are already pencilling us in a further fall  this year, if this month is any indication of how 2023 is going to pan out.

Still we may be deep in corrupt sh*t but at least we won't have to listen to any more lectures from @littleyellowbirdie that there's nothing to see here and all this corruption is in our imagination because the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index says the UK is whiter than white 🙄

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

1 minute ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Still we may be deep in corrupt sh*t but at least we won't have to listen to any more lectures from @littleyellowbirdie that there's nothing to see here and all this corruption is in our imagination because the Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index says the UK is whiter than white 🙄

Find one quote of me claiming the UK is whiter than white regarding corruption.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

4 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Freedom for Tooting!!

My comrades (all 4 of you) ...Come and join me in the revolution! Viva La Revolution

You're definitely not one of the five. You're probably the most reasonable person on here.

[sonyc 5,541]

14 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You're definitely not one of the five. You're probably the most reasonable person on here.

My wife bought me a Freedom for Tooting T shirt (in red of course). I am a founder member didn't you know.

I'm definitely one of the 5 (actually there are many more) but I tend not to be do sharp replies to anyone. Life is too short.

[Yellow Fever 3,848]

I know I'm as guilty as others getting drawn into endless debates on simply a turn of phrase or an allegory like yesterday but don't feed the trolls. He'll calm down eventually.

I 'liked' Foxy's general comment about the CU but don't need to argue on every point.

As ever Sunak is caught between keeping his deranged party together with financial prudence. Brexit was ultimately a choice in my opinion between US style or a European social contract (welfare) state. Oddly, most of those who voted Brexit actually want the second (protectionism) but the only way to make the UK work outside the EU as the ERG know is the former (US style). Truss actually realized this - tax cuts (and increasing immigration!) but forgot the swinging benefit cuts or service cuts to match. There lies the conundrum.

 

[Creative Midfielder 2,004]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Find one quote of me claiming the UK is whiter than white regarding corruption.

😂 I'm happy to amend  'whiter than white' to 'one of the least corrupt countries in the world' or whatever the exact pony was that you were trotting out a year ago - it makes no difference at all to the substance of the point I am making and which, as usual, you are desperately trying to avoid discussing.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

6 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂 I'm happy to amend  'whiter than white' to 'one of the least corrupt countries in the world' or whatever the exact pony was that you were trotting out a year ago - it makes no difference at all to the substance of the point I am making and which, as usual, you are desperately trying to avoid discussing.

Well, yeah, I'll stand by one of the top 10 least corrupt countries in the world, as backed up by the work done by Transparency International, a highly respected anti-corruption organisation.

More respected than your personal opinion, anyway.

Top tip: If there are specific points you want people to think about, don't introduce pointless distractions that might be more likely to catch their attention. 🤪

Regarding the 2023 point, we've probably bottomed out regarding losses from leaving the EU; it's really a question of seeing what comes of new arrangements elsewhere as and when they're made.

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 2,004]

15 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Well, yeah, I'll stand by one of the top 10 least corrupt countries in the world, as backed up by the work done by Transparency International, a highly respected anti-corruption organisation.

More respected than your personal opinion, anyway.

Fine except that you are way out of date, which is what most of us were saying when it became obvious to almost all, your good  self clearly being the exception, that Johnson's government was plumbing new depths of corruption as far as the the UK was concerned.

The UK hasn't been in the top 10 since 2017 and has now plunged to 18th which as the headline on your highly respected anti-corruption organisation highlights, https://www.transparency.org.uk/uk-corruption-perceptions-index-2022-score-CPI , is our worst ever position.

I know you have no respect for my personal opinion, I take that as read, but it nevertheless turns out to be more accurate than your out of date perception, even on your own chosen measure.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Creative Midfielder

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

15 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I know I'm as guilty as others getting drawn into endless debates on simply a turn of phrase or an allegory like yesterday but don't feed the trolls. He'll calm down eventually.

I 'liked' Foxy's general comment about the CU but don't need to argue on every point.

As ever Sunak is caught between keeping his deranged party together with financial prudence. Brexit was ultimately a choice in my opinion between US style or a European social contract (welfare) state. Oddly, most of those who voted Brexit actually want the second (protectionism) but the only way to make the UK work outside the EU as the ERG know is the former (US style). Truss actually realized this - tax cuts (and increasing immigration!) but forgot the swinging benefit cuts or service cuts to match. There lies the conundrum.

 

Protectionism is never an option for a small resource poor island like ourselves. Our survival is very much tied up in the success of globalisation as a resource poor net importer of goods and net exporter of services.

It should be remembered that globalisation has been championed as a means of raising standards globally and there are plenty of examples of how it has done so;, projects like the WTO, the EEC, CPTPP have been all about creating legislative frameworks for level playing fields for a more connected world with more cross-border trade.

CPTPP is not yet fully a player in its own right, but our accession is a step closer to the critical mass of being a player than can broker its own relationship with China, the US, and the EU, grow CPTPP. It's also the highest standard multaleral trade agreement out there outside of the EEA.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

25 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Fine except that you are way out of date, which is what most of us were saying when it became obvious to almost all, your good  self clearly being the exception, that Johnson's government was plumbing new depths of corruption as far as the the UK was concerned.

The UK hasn't been in the top 10 since 2017 and has now plunged to 18th which as the headline on your highly respected anti-corruption organisation highlights, https://www.transparency.org.uk/uk-corruption-perceptions-index-2022-score-CPI , is our worst ever position.

I know you have no respect for my personal opinion, I take that as read, but it nevertheless turns out to be more accurate than your out of date perception, even on your own chosen measure.

 

There you go. You were arguing against me only in your view relative to the UK historically in isolation, which is irrelevant to discussion of where the UK is relative to other nations, which was the basis of my assertion.

Furthermore, it should be remembered that a lot of that decline will be tied up with perceptions of this current government; a change of government will probably restore it quite quickly. But you're right to flag up the decline as legitimate cause for concern given it does come from a respectable source.

Edit: It's a sad reflection on your own mindset that you now treat TI's view as something worthy of citation now it has something to say that suits your own standpoint. Hopefully you'll treat it with the same respect in future when it isn't necessarily saying something you want to hear in your desire to argue against my point for the sake of it. If that happens then my respect for your opinion will definitely improve.

Also, "way out of date" is a bit strong considering this was published this month.

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 2,004]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

There you go. You're arguing against me only in your view relative to the UK historically in isolation, which is irrelevant to discussion of where the UK is relative to other nations, which was the basis of my assertion.

😂😂  Complete nonsense and also complete denial, it seems, that the basis of your assertion that the UK was in the top ten least corrupt countries in the world, which was your preferred method of dismissing the notion that corruption in the UK getting worse,  was wrong as well.

And whilst we're focussing on ''where the UK is relative to other nations" another rather shocking point made by https://www.transparency.org.uk/uk-corruption-perceptions-index-2022-score-CPI which I assume you still haven't looked at is:

'Only five of the 180 countries assessed for the 2022 Index saw their year-on-year scores drop by five or more points: the UK (-5), Qatar (-5), Myanmar (-5), Azerbaijan (-7) and Oman (-8).

Qatar, Myanmar, Azerbaijan and Oman!!

Says it all really and that's not my personal opinion, it's Transparency International's.

[sonyc 5,541]

48 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Oddly, most of those who voted Brexit actually want the second (protectionism) but the only way to make the UK work outside the EU as the ERG know is the former (US style).

Agree very much with this YF. There's a very sad article today on Unherd about Boston. The social and economic changes had been going on maybe 50 years. They voted Brexit expecting the government to regain 'control' - worth a read. And you can feel sympathy for local residents (as well as migrants). What the answer is I'm less sure. The area needs a new economic purpose. Levelling Up will not solve it.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,613]

9 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂😂  Complete nonsense and also complete denial, it seems, that the basis of your assertion that the UK was in the top ten least corrupt countries in the world, which was your preferred method of dismissing the notion that corruption in the UK getting worse,  was wrong as well.

And whilst we're focussing on ''where the UK is relative to other nations" another rather shocking point made by https://www.transparency.org.uk/uk-corruption-perceptions-index-2022-score-CPI which I assume you still haven't looked at is:

'Only five of the 180 countries assessed for the 2022 Index saw their year-on-year scores drop by five or more points: the UK (-5), Qatar (-5), Myanmar (-5), Azerbaijan (-7) and Oman (-8).

Qatar, Myanmar, Azerbaijan and Oman!!

Says it all really and that's not my personal opinion, it's Transparency International's.

Not nonsense at all. Top 10 was clearly my memory playing tricks on me and happy to be corrected on that.

18th puts us level with Japan and better than France on Corruption Perception when considering it in perspective. Would you say France and Japan are dastardly dens of iniquity as you portray the UK to be?

As an additional point, I have already acknowledged that the drop is a legitimate point of concern and your newfound respect for Transparency International now it suits what you want to argue is to be applauded. Long may your newfound confidence in their integrity continue.

Seriously, all this really does prove the point that you really were arguing against me for the sake of it back when you were challenging the validity of Transparency International's measures in trying to discredit my point back then, which really does underline that I'm justified in having little respect for your opinion.

Edited January 31, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,848]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Agree very much with this YF. There's a very sad article today on Unherd about Boston. The social and economic changes had been going on maybe 50 years. They voted Brexit expecting the government to regain 'control' - worth a read. And you can feel sympathy for local residents (as well as migrants). What the answer is I'm less sure. The area needs a new economic purpose. Levelling Up will not solve it.

Yes - the point was the EU gave us a large captive market for our products and services within a common agreed social construct (those rules). We could all have high standards, benefits and within reason no race to the bottom or undercutting. It was the largest, wealthiest free trade area for 1st world countries that benefitted all and pulled the weaker up such as the emergent East Europeans. Well done Maggie!

Now we have to compete with the rest of the world on their terms i.e. India. They generally don't have the equivalent of the NHS, state pensions, unemployment pay, extended redundancy terms and the like or at much lower level. Basically lower cost base.

There is no half way house I'm afraid which is where we are at present so for me I can agree logically with a move to a US style system (and yes all that entails vs NHS etc) which the average Brexiter will hate if they can compete at all or get back inside the SM /CU. Its cold out here !

Sadly this economic analysis doesn't wash or directly/quickly affect those that are economically independent - in our case the large retired demographic. Hence the 'vote'.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[TheGunnShow 6,080]

As long as we get these shysters out at the next election, and ignore what I suspect is going to be a battery of culture war-related media campaigns, we'll have a start but no more. Electoral reform will be more of a kickstart, but journeys of a thousand miles always started with a single step.

[king canary 7,702]

13 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

As long as we get these shysters out at the next election, and ignore what I suspect is going to be a battery of culture war-related media campaigns, we'll have a start but no more. Electoral reform will be more of a kickstart, but journeys of a thousand miles always started with a single step.

I think the culture war stuff could have worked pre inflation/cost of living crisis. 

Right now people don't have the same bandwidth to be concerned about whether Universities are too woke if they are struggling to pay for the heating.

[TheGunnShow 6,080]

1 minute ago, king canary said:

I think the culture war stuff could have worked pre inflation/cost of living crisis. 

Right now people don't have the same bandwidth to be concerned about whether Universities are too woke if they are struggling to pay for the heating.

They'll throw it in on the side. I'm very confident of that. That's what the likes of Braverman and Badenoch live for.

[king canary 7,702]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

They'll throw it in on the side. I'm very confident of that. That's what the likes of Braverman and Badenoch live for.

Oh yeah they'll try it no doubt, I just don't think it'll work though. I think it could have done a couple of years ago and it was clearly the angle Johnson wanted to take. 

[TheGunnShow 6,080]

6 minutes ago, king canary said:

Oh yeah they'll try it no doubt, I just don't think it'll work though. I think it could have done a couple of years ago and it was clearly the angle Johnson wanted to take. 

Well, we already have recent history of surprising voting patterns.