The Positive Brexit Thread

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

32 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Thats cheap (I use cheap in an illustrative way) considering what we pay down here. Local chippy is £14.65 for cod and chips.

Wait until the Japanese start fishing our waters.

Thank God CPTPP doesn't have a common fisheries policy...

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

10 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I tend to read articles ad hoc as they cross my path. Most frequently, I read the Guardian, just because it's the most frequently shared stuff that crosses my path, and although the bias isn't to my tastes, I know it won't be factually inaccurate, even if it may mislead by ommission on occasion. Le monde, Nikkei and the Japan Times have been frequent reads of late. Don't really dip behind paywalls on the whole.

TV News, it's BBC, CNN, and France 24.

I was in London the week before last, and in Falmouth Monday to Thursday last week sailing with my brother-in-law (really wanted to message you about a pint but I just didn't have time on a three-day visit).

I'm British and very fond of my country and culture, but also love France enormously as well as Germany. Politically, I'm a classical liberal and a Hobbesian, and I take that view on geopolitics as well: Make the agreements necessary to make people's lives better and more peaceful, but don't do more than you actually need.

Interestingly, I was chatting to an American who lives in London who said she has absolutely no native British friends in London. They were all expats from all over the world. It got me thinking back to what Theresa May said about citizens of everywhere being citizens of nowhere. I think she was right.

Aus and New Zealand didn't short us. They got a good deal from us, and maybe what they deserved for being so decent with us after we shorted them when we joined the EEC.Like I said, the overall picture for the agricultural sector is looking pretty healthy by its own accounts.

 

Shame you didn't PM about a pint or two. 

I live in an area where the indigenous are extremely proud of being Cornish. Yet they are now outnumbered by us up country people. And I have noticed how they have mellowed toward us.

I lived in NZ when we were Poms but the Kiwi now realises you are what you are where you are.

I hope we might see an end to nationalism in its extreme. I know it is impossible but if people could just go and live somewhere else for a time, not only would they respect others but aporeciate their own better.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

2 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Shame you didn't PM about a pint or two. 

I live in an area where the indigenous are extremely proud of being Cornish. Yet they are now outnumbered by us up country people. And I have noticed how they have mellowed toward us.

I lived in NZ when we were Poms but the Kiwi now realises you are what you are where you are.

I hope we might see an end to nationalism in its extreme. I know it is impossible but if people could just go and live somewhere else for a time, not only would they respect others but aporeciate their own better.

I will definitely do it next time. 🙂

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

7 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I will definitely do it next time. 🙂

👍

[A Load of Squit 5,222]

5 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

 

Referring back to that Sam Coates tweet, it's just one example of the drip drip of negative opinions being thrown out with no actual substance behind them; just more preaching to the converted.

He was reporting on the reaction of the media in the area, their response was a collective 'Meh'. That's actual substance.

 

Edited July 17, 2023 by A Load of Squit

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

4 hours ago, horsefly said:

Who told you that? I certainly remember people saying that joining the CPTPP would be utterly pathetic when compared to the losses accrued by Brexit. Even the government's own figures prove that.

As I keep pointing out, comparing everything to the losses relating to leaving the EU - and let's remember they're all estimates dealing with a huge number of variables  - is largely a waste of time given that it's a fait accompli.

The CPTPP is not static.The growth ambitions that its members have for it are evident; contrary to the idea that it would put a wedge between us and the EU, the process has had positive knock-on effects for our relationship with the EU with the diplomatic interventions form CPTPP members like Japan seeking to smooth our relationship with the EU. As I suggested elsewhere, I think it may suit the government to err on the side of low expectations regarding what it returns for us, but either way, little political interest in our membership is probably no bad thing.

Edited July 17, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,835]

 

[Herman 9,835]

Wasn't stopping Polish builders one of the main reasons for brexit? Just to think, you threw away your rights of freedom of movement for this.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

22 minutes ago, Herman said:

Wasn't stopping Polish builders one of the main reasons for brexit? Just to think, you threw away your rights of freedom of movement for this.

 

They were never rights to freedom of movement; they were always privileges of freedom of movement. If they were rights, they couldn't have been stripped away from us by the EU so easily in reaction to the UK leaving the EU.

Edited July 18, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,835]

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

15 minutes ago, Herman said:

 

Nothing to do with our EU citizenship. It's the EU that talks about EU citizens 'rights', but EU citizenship itself is merely a consequence of reciprocity between nations in international treaty that can be stripped from the individual as consequence of a nation withdrawing from said treaty, so it was never a right anyway. Either that, or the concept of rights is meaningless in EU parlance.

Edited July 18, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,835]

Stop gaslighting ffs. We know what you brexit clowns did.

[dylanisabaddog 5,006]

4 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Nothing to do with our EU citizenship. It's the EU that talks about EU citizens 'rights', but EU citizenship itself is merely a consequence of reciprocity between nations in international treaty that can be stripped from the individual as consequence of termination of treaty, so it was never a right anyway.

 

https://european-union.europa.eu/live-work-study/living-eu_en

EU citizenship is granted automatically to anyone who holds the nationality of an EU country. Some rights and benefits derive from national law, and these may differ from country to country. Other rights derive from EU law and are therefore the same in all EU countries. These EU rights extend to everyday life – from shopping and driving to healthcare and family/relationship issues.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

Just now, Herman said:

Stop gaslighting ffs. We know what you brexit clowns did.

It's not gaslighting. Apparently you don't understand what that is either, as well as what a right is.

An actual individual right is something inherent and inalienable to the individual. For example, in the Geneva convention, rights are awarded to individuals in combat. This is regardless to whether both sides in the combat are signatories to the Geneva convention.If a soldier fighting for a Geneva convention signatory state kills an unarmed prisoner, then he has committed a war crime, regardless of whether the state of the victim  is a signatory to the Geneva convention: That is an example of an actual individual right.

In contrast, our 'rights' as EU citizens were entirely dependent on reciprocity in treaty. Once the UK withdrew from the treaty, our EU individual citizenship was ended, so it was never a right; the EU's use of the word makes a mockery of the term.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

10 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

 

https://european-union.europa.eu/live-work-study/living-eu_en

EU citizenship is granted automatically to anyone who holds the nationality of an EU country. Some rights and benefits derive from national law, and these may differ from country to country. Other rights derive from EU law and are therefore the same in all EU countries. These EU rights extend to everyday life – from shopping and driving to healthcare and family/relationship issues.

Exactly. EU citizenship was granted to us automatically as individuals as a consequence of holding the nationality of a then EU country. Since the EU had granted us that citizenship as individuals, it's therefore the EU that took it away from us as individuals; that citizenship was in the gift of the EU, not the UK.

Edited July 18, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,835]

It was our right under EU membership. You voted to leave the EU therefore losing our rights to Freedom Of Movement. Patel and other bigots were gleeful at us losing this right.

[dylanisabaddog 5,006]

9 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Exactly. EU citizenship was granted to us automatically as individuals as a consequence of holding the nationality of a then EU country. Since the EU had granted us that citizenship as individuals, it's therefore the EU that took it away from us as individuals; that citizenship was in the gift of the EU, not the UK.

No. We were members of a club and had rights as members. We resigned from the club and thus gave up our rights. 

Why would the EU grant rights to members of non EU states?

If you give up your season ticket and stop paying for it you'll be shocked to hear that Norwich City won't let you use your old seat😊

Edited July 18, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[A Load of Squit 5,222]

11 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Exactly. EU citizenship was granted to us automatically as individuals as a consequence of holding the nationality of a then EU country. Since the EU had granted us that citizenship as individuals, it's therefore the EU that took it away from us as individuals; that citizenship was in the gift of the EU, not the UK.

Very, very stupid.

[A Load of Squit 5,222]

This is just like that parish council meeting where that bloke kept shouting "Jackie Weaver! You do not have the authority!".

 

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

 

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

No. We were members of a club and had rights as members. We resigned from the club and thus gave up our rights. 

Why would the EU grant rights to members of non EU states?

If you give up your season ticket and stop paying for it you'll be shocked to hear that Norwich City won't let you use your old seat😊

It was already granted; you don't grant something and then grant it again and again; once something is granted, it's granted, unless it's actively revoked, which is the case with us.

You wouldn't  compare your British citizenship to a season ticket. That's an actual protected right; revoking it is highly controversial, even if doing so wouldn't actually render the subject stateless, as was the case with Shamima Begum. EU citizenship, thus, doesn't really pass as real citizenship of anything. It is just a make-believe, hubristic term with no meaning. Individual rights that can be so readily revoked by the bodies that grant them aren't rights at all.

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,835]

They were part of our EU membership, the right of FOM. We left the EU voluntarily therefore giving up our right of FOM. This really isn't hard to understand.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

24 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

This is just like that parish council meeting where that bloke kept shouting "Jackie Weaver! You do not have the authority!".

 

 

Deluded nonsense. How can anyone take seriously the proclamations of people who haven't actually come to terms with the fact that Brexit is complete and we're no longer members of the EU?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

They were part of our EU membership, the right of FOM. We left the EU voluntarily therefore giving up our right of FOM. This really isn't hard to understand.

If it's part of EU membership, and not actually an entitlement of the individual, then it's not a right. Basically, the EU declared EU citizenship isn't a real thing when they announced we were no longer EU citizens. If it is a real thing, then effectively the EU exercised collective punishment on the population of the UK to make a point regardless of whether the individuals wanted to continue to be EU citizens or not.

I'm surprised you're not familiar with the point: Guy Verhofstadt and other liberal MEPs pushed it quite hard.

https://www.politico.eu/article/guy-verhofstadt-uk-citizens-should-keep-eu-rights-on-individual-basis/

Edited July 18, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,835]

Oh I give up.We're not talking about citizenship, we're talking about FOM. Deliberately obtuse/semantic just to have an argument.

[A Load of Squit 5,222]

40 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Deluded nonsense. How can anyone take seriously the proclamations of people who haven't actually come to terms with the fact that Brexit is complete and we're no longer members of the EU?

Obviously didn't watch it, if you did you wouldn't have posted something so stupid.

[dylanisabaddog 5,006]

33 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

If it's part of EU membership, and not actually an entitlement of the individual, then it's not a right. Basically, the EU declared EU citizenship isn't a real thing when they announced we were no longer EU citizens. If it is a real thing, then effectively the EU exercised collective punishment on the population of the UK to make a point regardless of whether the individuals wanted to continue to be EU citizens or not.

I'm surprised you're not familiar with the point: Guy Verhofstadt and other liberal MEPs pushed it quite hard.

https://www.politico.eu/article/guy-verhofstadt-uk-citizens-should-keep-eu-rights-on-individual-basis/

Some EU ministers and one in particular thought that UK nationals should be allowed to keep EU citizenship. But that wasn't the view of the EU as a whole. This is complicated, we left the EU and lost individual rights as a result. I very much doubt there was any doubt in anyone's mind that would happen. 

I'm going to politely withdraw from this discussion now. It's very silly. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,598]

9 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Some EU ministers and one in particular thought that UK nationals should be allowed to keep EU citizenship. But that wasn't the view of the EU as a whole. This is complicated, we left the EU and lost individual rights as a result. I very much doubt there was any doubt in anyone's mind that would happen. 

I'm going to politely withdraw from this discussion now. It's very silly. 

Hypothetically, if the UK split as a result of a Scottish leave vote, what do you think should happen to the British citizenship? Should anyone that assumes Scottish citizenship be automatically stripped of British citizenship? If the answer is no then the argument isn't silly at all unless you accept the fact that EU citizenship was never a real thing and the 'rights' aren't really rights as a consequence. You can call it a quasi-citizenship if you like.

Edited July 18, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[A Load of Squit 5,222]

36 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Hypothetically, if the UK split as a result of a Scottish leave vote, what do you think should happen to the British citizenship? Should anyone that assumes Scottish citizenship be automatically stripped of British citizenship? If the answer is no then the argument isn't silly at all unless you accept the fact that EU citizenship was never a real thing and the 'rights' aren't really rights as a consequence. You can call it a quasi-citizenship if you like.

It's obviously not going to be 'no', you're just typing stuff that doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Go and have a lie down, you need it.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Deluded nonsense. How can anyone take seriously the proclamations of people who haven't actually come to terms with the fact that Brexit is complete and we're no longer members of the EU?

According to Francois, we aren't free of the EU. And while the NI problem isn't totally resolved, he is probably right. Still doesn't stop him talking above his pay grade.

[Surfer 1,547]

There is no such thing in nature as a "right". Especially an "inalienable right", even more "rights granted by our creator"

All "rights" come from political accommodation i.e. we invent them to serve our society - for good or bad. 

So F the Brexiters who knowingly removed the right of British Citizens to work, travel, and retire in Europe without government interference.... from the "party of small government" no less. 

Edited July 18, 2023 by Surfer